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> Landfills are safe and clean I'm admittedly no expert, but I'm _pretty damn certain_ this is not the case. (Do you know what leachate is?) I'm happy to be pr

> Landfills are safe and clean I'm admittedly no expert, but I'm _pretty damn certain_ this is not the case. (Do you know what leachate is?) I'm happy to be proven wrong by references to legitimate research backing up this claim, though.

mattmaroon 7y ago
The recycling industry relies on outdated ideas like that. Leachate was once a huge problem, but it was solved decades ago. Modern landfills are constructed with layers of barriers and collection tubing. Here's a cool diagram from the EPA: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-09/landfill_diagram.jpg https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-09/landfill_... Do you have "references to legitimate research" stating that modern landfills are unsafe or is that just your default belief?
- hanniabu 7y ago
  Only one layer of synthetic liner, I think that says enough. All it takes is a single tear that could have even happened with installation, or maybe the sand layers aren't as thick as what's recommended and as garbage is put on top it digs into the sand and rips the synthetic layer. How much extensive real world testing has been done with this synthetic layers? Is it meant to sit for decades bathing in a chemical soup? Or it is assumed that it'd only get wet? My guess is that they didn't use real world tests where people are throwing out chemicals that shouldn't be put in the garbage.
  - freeone3000 7y ago
    If the chemicals can dissolve plastic, the plastic wouldn't be a problem.
    - hanniabu 7y ago
      Synthetic layer could mean rubber, not just plastic. Also the chemical just needs to break down/ deteriorate the layer, not decompose it.
  - mattmaroon 7y ago
    Quite a bit of testing is done. Mandatory groundwater tests are done near every single one. Your guess, that it wouldn't occur to scientists that people throw away stuff that they should not, is silly.
    - hanniabu 7y ago
      I've been conditioned to think that the waste management industry would have tests done by either paid or incompetent people in order to get a rubber stamp of approval. Cynical? Yes, but in this day and age with what we see corporations do I think it's best to be skeptical.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    It continually amazes me that people like you think they have found a legitimate problem after 30 seconds of thought which the experts never imagined. I imagine at least one follow up which includes a reference to 'appeal to authority' yada yada yada will appear.
    - mattmaroon 7y ago
      Especially one so obvious.
    - Teever 7y ago
      The lead issue in the water infrastructure in Flint Michigan tells me everything I need to know about the safety of these systems. A human can design a perfect system and then someone else can come along and whether due to malfeasance or greed fuck that perfect system up. No system is perfect for that very reason. The solution is to generate less waste. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle -- in that order. There won't be a problem if there isn't a problem to take care of.
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        >The solution is to generate less waste. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle -- in that order. >There won't be a problem if there isn't a problem to take care of. Sure, and in fantasy land I'm sure there's just a switch you can flip to make that happen. Back in reality where you can't just eliminate all these sources of waste in a day, don't you think it's worth looking for practical solutions that we can implement in the short term? Besides, the only thing I responded to was an internet know-it-all supposing that scientists and engineers hadn't considered a tear or the fact that people may throw away things they're not suppose to.
    - hanniabu 7y ago
      As I've said in another comment, it's not that I think nobody would have thought of it, but that it's an intentional overlook. I've been conditioned to think that the waste management industry would have tests done by either paid or incompetent people in order to get a rubber stamp of approval. Cynical? Yes, but in this day and age with what we see corporations do I think it's best to be skeptical.
- 14 7y ago
  Are all landfills built that way across the world even in poor countries?
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    Are all people recycling across the world even in poor countries? Let's focus on local conditions when looking for local solutions to local problems.
    - jokoon 7y ago
      > Let's focus on local conditions haha! landfill are cheap in third world country, and it's easy to guess they're unregulated... it's hard to be optimist here.
    - biggc 7y ago
      Leachate may be a local problem, however widespread use of single-use plastic that eventually makes it way into the ocean and food chains is a global problem.
      - nitrogen 7y ago
        But from the perspective of developed countries, if the root of the problem is elsewhere, then no amount of recycling will solve it. There is no amount of recycling or elimination of plastics I can do in the US that will keep plastics dumped into rivers in developing countries from reaching the ocean. Just to be clear, I support the use of paper and heavy-duty plastic bags for a fee, because they are less likely to be caught by the wind and can be reused for a long time. I abhor littering. But I do not support guilt trips over landfill use in developed countries with highly regulated landfill designs.
      - mattmaroon 7y ago
        Single use plastic mostly only makes it into the ocean when the third world countries we ship our recycling to decide to dump it. If you want to ensure your single use plastic doesn't end up in the ocean, put it in the trash. Recent studies indicate that most of the plastic in the ocean comes from discarded fishing nets and gear. (Nets alone are almost half.) The idea that people are littering straws and water bottles and that that's what is clogging up the oceans is just way wrong.
acomjean 7y ago
Leachate is water that travels through trash and picks up nasty stuff along the way. I used to build landfill at the end of the last century. Landfill regulations vary from place to place, but in essence new landfills are some of the worlds largest plastic bags. NY used a double liner system (a bag within a big). It was 1 foot of clay (water moves slowly through clay) at the bottom, bentomat and 60mil hdpe liner "welded" together into a big waterproof mat. They put corregated pipes along the bottom to funnel leachate out for treatment. sand and fill with trash. The top with 40 mil Hdpe. They do that even for old landfills without bottom liners. The have to vent because landfills produce flamable gasses. I hope these systems work well.
- mattmaroon 7y ago
  And there are groundwater testing requirements in subtitle D, the same regulation that ended the era of dumps. It's funny, it's been over 40 years since then (it was passed in 76) and people who weren't even born yet still think of landfills as dumps.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Modern landfills are sealed off from the soil underneath. Nothing leaks into the environment apart from gases from decaying matter. Once a landfill is full it can also be sealed at the top so that gases may be recovered and the landfill buried under clean soil e.g. to turn it into a park.

mattmaroon 7y ago

The recycling industry relies on outdated ideas like that. Leachate was once a huge problem, but it was solved decades ago. Modern landfills are constructed with layers of barriers and collection tubing. Here's a cool diagram from the EPA: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-09/landfill_diagram.jpg https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-09/landfill_... Do you have "references to legitimate research" stating that modern landfills are unsafe or is that just your default belief?

hanniabu 7y ago
Only one layer of synthetic liner, I think that says enough. All it takes is a single tear that could have even happened with installation, or maybe the sand layers aren't as thick as what's recommended and as garbage is put on top it digs into the sand and rips the synthetic layer. How much extensive real world testing has been done with this synthetic layers? Is it meant to sit for decades bathing in a chemical soup? Or it is assumed that it'd only get wet? My guess is that they didn't use real world tests where people are throwing out chemicals that shouldn't be put in the garbage.
- freeone3000 7y ago
  If the chemicals can dissolve plastic, the plastic wouldn't be a problem.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    Synthetic layer could mean rubber, not just plastic. Also the chemical just needs to break down/ deteriorate the layer, not decompose it.
- mattmaroon 7y ago
  Quite a bit of testing is done. Mandatory groundwater tests are done near every single one. Your guess, that it wouldn't occur to scientists that people throw away stuff that they should not, is silly.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    I've been conditioned to think that the waste management industry would have tests done by either paid or incompetent people in order to get a rubber stamp of approval. Cynical? Yes, but in this day and age with what we see corporations do I think it's best to be skeptical.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  It continually amazes me that people like you think they have found a legitimate problem after 30 seconds of thought which the experts never imagined. I imagine at least one follow up which includes a reference to 'appeal to authority' yada yada yada will appear.
  - mattmaroon 7y ago
    Especially one so obvious.
  - Teever 7y ago
    The lead issue in the water infrastructure in Flint Michigan tells me everything I need to know about the safety of these systems. A human can design a perfect system and then someone else can come along and whether due to malfeasance or greed fuck that perfect system up. No system is perfect for that very reason. The solution is to generate less waste. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle -- in that order. There won't be a problem if there isn't a problem to take care of.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      >The solution is to generate less waste. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle -- in that order. >There won't be a problem if there isn't a problem to take care of. Sure, and in fantasy land I'm sure there's just a switch you can flip to make that happen. Back in reality where you can't just eliminate all these sources of waste in a day, don't you think it's worth looking for practical solutions that we can implement in the short term? Besides, the only thing I responded to was an internet know-it-all supposing that scientists and engineers hadn't considered a tear or the fact that people may throw away things they're not suppose to.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    As I've said in another comment, it's not that I think nobody would have thought of it, but that it's an intentional overlook. I've been conditioned to think that the waste management industry would have tests done by either paid or incompetent people in order to get a rubber stamp of approval. Cynical? Yes, but in this day and age with what we see corporations do I think it's best to be skeptical.
14 7y ago
Are all landfills built that way across the world even in poor countries?
- nitrogen 7y ago
  Are all people recycling across the world even in poor countries? Let's focus on local conditions when looking for local solutions to local problems.
  - jokoon 7y ago
    > Let's focus on local conditions haha! landfill are cheap in third world country, and it's easy to guess they're unregulated... it's hard to be optimist here.
  - biggc 7y ago
    Leachate may be a local problem, however widespread use of single-use plastic that eventually makes it way into the ocean and food chains is a global problem.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      But from the perspective of developed countries, if the root of the problem is elsewhere, then no amount of recycling will solve it. There is no amount of recycling or elimination of plastics I can do in the US that will keep plastics dumped into rivers in developing countries from reaching the ocean. Just to be clear, I support the use of paper and heavy-duty plastic bags for a fee, because they are less likely to be caught by the wind and can be reused for a long time. I abhor littering. But I do not support guilt trips over landfill use in developed countries with highly regulated landfill designs.
    - mattmaroon 7y ago
      Single use plastic mostly only makes it into the ocean when the third world countries we ship our recycling to decide to dump it. If you want to ensure your single use plastic doesn't end up in the ocean, put it in the trash. Recent studies indicate that most of the plastic in the ocean comes from discarded fishing nets and gear. (Nets alone are almost half.) The idea that people are littering straws and water bottles and that that's what is clogging up the oceans is just way wrong.

acomjean 7y ago

Leachate is water that travels through trash and picks up nasty stuff along the way. I used to build landfill at the end of the last century. Landfill regulations vary from place to place, but in essence new landfills are some of the worlds largest plastic bags. NY used a double liner system (a bag within a big). It was 1 foot of clay (water moves slowly through clay) at the bottom, bentomat and 60mil hdpe liner "welded" together into a big waterproof mat. They put corregated pipes along the bottom to funnel leachate out for treatment. sand and fill with trash. The top with 40 mil Hdpe. They do that even for old landfills without bottom liners. The have to vent because landfills produce flamable gasses. I hope these systems work well.

mattmaroon 7y ago
And there are groundwater testing requirements in subtitle D, the same regulation that ended the era of dumps. It's funny, it's been over 40 years since then (it was passed in 76) and people who weren't even born yet still think of landfills as dumps.

mytailorisrich 7y ago

Modern landfills are sealed off from the soil underneath. Nothing leaks into the environment apart from gases from decaying matter. Once a landfill is full it can also be sealed at the top so that gases may be recovered and the landfill buried under clean soil e.g. to turn it into a park.