7 ms·

Maybe I'm totally wrong here, but I don't see much of a difference between extorsionist tax filing software and scam callers warning me about the IRS suing me.

Maybe I'm totally wrong here, but I don't see much of a difference between extorsionist tax filing software and scam callers warning me about the IRS suing me. Can the government please make something that's easy to use? Filing taxes isn't something that requires a separate company to help with, and I see no reason why these products have a right to exist (and especially not be canonized), especially with how exploitive they are or can be.

mywittyname 7y ago
> I see no reason why these products have a right to exist (and especially not be canonized), especially with how exploitive they are or can be. But if we remove the annual pain of dealing with taxes, then Americans will get complacent and may stop being bothered by having to pay taxes. - The serious ideology of a major American political party vis-a-vis taxes.
- _jal 7y ago
  This. It is a special combination of sadistic and stupid, an American classic.
  - cloverich 7y ago
    I'm skeptical. I think more likely its an intentional diversion to create and protect sophisticated loopholes for high income earners and companies. Its a reasonable strategy that obviously works and clearly explains their otherwise contradictory position.
    - nameless912 7y ago
      Porqúe no los dos? One thing I've learned about American politics is that if there's a sadistic answer that screws the poor and a greedy answer that advantages the rich, often _both_ are correct.
  - logfromblammo 7y ago
    While sadism and stupidity may be two of the reasons for the US tax code, there are surely others. I also suggest extending special privileges to the rich without making that obvious to the poor, forging a weapon to use against political enemies, creating a huge number of bureaucratic jobs, benefiting a legislator's constituent state at the expense of the others, obfuscating the sources of government revenues, and as a means to launder dirty money into clean. There are almost certainly others.
- jimmydddd 7y ago
  I sort of agree with the pain guys. I'm currently self employed (US) and have to separately pay estimated taxes quarterly. Since I've been doing this, I'm a lot more sensitive to politicians who want to raise my taxes. Similarly, there is a group in the US whose main goal is to change the law so that employers can't pay your taxes on your behalf. Instead, you would get your full salary, and then have to write a check to pay your taxes. The group believes this would raise tax awareness.
  - untog 7y ago
    I'm just imagining applying this principle more broadly. Perhaps before every meal I could be forced to calculate the number of calories in each item, total them up and submit them. Maybe before every car journey I could fill out an estimate of the wear and tear on the tyres, gearbox and suspension, and record that in a big log book of car events. Doesn't seem like a particularly useful way to approach life, to me.
    - abugheratwork 7y ago
      > Perhaps before every meal I could be forced to calculate the number of calories in each item, total them up and submit them. That's called Weight Watchers. The general principle was pretty effective for me. Most people don't keep a log of wear and tear on their car, but we definitely operate airplanes that way. That also seems pretty productive to me. But yeah, it's not the only way to operate. I don't really like the idea of putting more responsibility on people in order to "raise awareness". I take that to really mean someone would like everyone to be more upset about taxes, and would like to make them less convenient to increase upsetness.
    - pfranz 7y ago
      The technique is actually used a lot in diets and budgeting. Manually writing down everything you pay for helps you to notice that taxi you take every day or how often you "splurge" for coffee. Same with calories and that afternoon or midnight snack. But forcing it just wastes everyones time, adds red tape, and additional bureaucracy they purport to rail against.
  - 7y ago
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  I suggest we stop taking taxes out of paychecks and have people pay their full taxes once a year. It would help them see the total amount of taxes they pay. It would have a positive effect on government policy.
  - sunderw 7y ago
    It used to be that way in France until last year. The income taxes are now substracted directly on your paycheck. I personnaly prefer having a small amout taken each month than an enormous sum as a one-time payment.
  - abustamam 7y ago
    You can already see this on your pay stub (if you look at it, I know I don't bother with mine) In principle I like your suggestion but in actuality I think many Americans will not like their "yearly tax bill." Just think about people who are already living paycheck to paycheck; not saving much, or just overall spending every penny that comes into their bank account. They would be in trouble come April if they had to pay it at that point. Perhaps they could do a monthly installment payment for last year's taxes... And the taxpayer would auto pay once or twice a month when they get paid... But then, we're back to where we started. Tldr in an ideal world where every citizen is disciplined about not spending every penny they get, this suggestion would be great.
    - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
      ...in an ideal world, they wouldn't have to spend every penny, either.
      - abustamam 7y ago
        I would argue in an ideal world money wouldn't exist but I think people have different ideals in that sense :) I know some people _have_ to spend every penny because they need to to survive, but there are also plenty of people who spend every penny because they just have no discipline and buy anything they want without regard to whether or not they could afford it. Ideally the people in the former category would get some sort of welfare. Not sure what, if anything, to do with the people in the latter.
jedimastert 7y ago
> Can the government please make something that's easy to use? To be frank, the government has issues making things usable, and "usable" is a pretty small target when you're talking about the entire US workforce.
- wffurr 7y ago
  18F has really changed the game in government IT and software. https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://18f.gsa.gov/ They brought in a bunch of dedicated experienced software pros who among other things rescued the federal health insurance exchange site. I think they could do a fine job with tax software.
  - entropicdrifter 7y ago
    Thanks Obama
- isostatic 7y ago
  One of the best sites to 'do stuff' in the UK is gov.uk I've just filled in a new ESTA application on the US gov site too, simple (albeit stupid), and worked. This morning however I tried using enterprise b2b to book a hire car, it took 6 attempts before it actually worked. Almost all corporate tools seem to be terrible.
- peteradio 7y ago
  The government has issues holding private companies accountable when they fail to deliver.
cvhashim 7y ago
Tax lobbyists like Intuit benefit too much from all of this really. Planet money podcast episode that outlines some of this. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis... Also Reply All did an episode recently on the Propublica Intuit story. https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nhgol https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nhgol
cpwright 7y ago
Filing taxes does not actually require a separate company to help with. You can download the PDFs (or go to the post office), read the directions and fill them out yourself. I have never actually done that; but my parents did well after I was using software, which sure is more convenient.
- magashna 7y ago
  I think if you make under $70k or so you can do it online as well, there's a few sites that officially help you on behalf of the IRS.
  - sneeze-slayer 7y ago
    Like TurboTax?
    - magashna 7y ago
      Turbotax appears to have one of the lower limits, and also are supposedly very difficult about doing the free option. https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/jsp/index.jsp https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/jsp/index.jsp
      - sneeze-slayer 7y ago
        My point was more that these companies offer a solution that is just barely workable so that the IRS does not just create their own usable, free software. I honestly consider them a leech on the economy.
- athenot 7y ago
  I used to do that. Because I'm a proud software engineer and why should this stuff be complicated? It's just numbers you add or subtract... wait, does the Transmogrifier Deduction for Frobnubilors apply when you claim to be Single-and-Only Highlander? pauses and takes 1 hour to read up on the IRS rules for this and compares with the advice of $random_internet_guy And after the personal satisfaction of having completed everything myself, I file and a few months later get a letter from the IRS to the effect of "Dear Mr Bonehead, you totally forgot this obvious item, so we're going to refund you a bit more. You're welcome." Taxes are not hard if you know how all of the rules apply to your special situation. If you don't, like most people, you're in the dark and it becomes a very poor use of time, with lost money at stake—or worse if your intentions are deemed to be fraudulent.
Shivetya 7y ago
How many pages of the supposed eight thousand plus pages of tax law apply to the majority of those who file taxes? The IRS certainly can tell me when I am wrong but they won't do it except when the result is in their favor; in my case I was improperly not filing HSA expenditures which would have resulted in me getting more back. It comes down to this and I do not blame Turbo Tax or any other company in this area. The Federal and State Tax codes are weaponized by politicians and until that stops the system will be too complex for many to do the the filing on their own and some of that is because there is always that "did I forget something" feeling. At least the changes made recently helped the lower and middle classes out a lot, that doubling of the personal deduction was a god send in reducing the work needed as many will never need to itemize again
- freddie_mercury 7y ago
  > The IRS certainly can tell me when I am wrong but they won't do it except when the result is in their favor Yes they will. I don't know why you bother to make up a lie so easily disproved. On September 9, 2019, I received a CP16 that stated "We believe there are miscalculations on your 2018 Form 1040, which affect the following areas of your return: - Tax Computation We made changes to your return that correct these errors. As a result, your overpayment is $21,886.35. Information was changed because of the following: We changed the amount of tax reported on your tax return because the tax rates on Qualified Dividends and Capital Gains are generally lower than the standard rates. It appears your tax was not computed using these rates or the amount of tax was computed incorrectly. (211D)"
  - symlinkk 7y ago
    Holy shit talk about a humble brag. You overpaid by $21k? You must be balling.
    - 0xffff2 7y ago
      At a 15% rate, that's only 140k in capital gains. Significant, but hardly "balling" if it's a one-time event.
sschueller 7y ago
I find it interesting that these scam callers warning about IRS suing only works in countries where making an honest mistake on your taxes can result you being threatened with or going to prison.
- 0xffff2 7y ago
  Which countries are those? I've never been in the position personally, but everything I've ever read says that the IRS is very unlikely to do anything more than demand that you pay the taxes you owe in the case of honest mistakes.
skeptical900067 7y ago
I use the free fillable forms. Happy with it every year so far. If turbo tax makes them go away, I'll get real politically involved real quick.
- 77pt77 7y ago
  A private company stills gets your data. You are not filling directly with the IRS.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kansface 7y ago
> Can the government please make something that's easy to use? Many law makers don't want the Government to make this process easy on the assumption that the easier it is for the Government to tax, the more it will do so.

mywittyname 7y ago

> I see no reason why these products have a right to exist (and especially not be canonized), especially with how exploitive they are or can be. But if we remove the annual pain of dealing with taxes, then Americans will get complacent and may stop being bothered by having to pay taxes. - The serious ideology of a major American political party vis-a-vis taxes.

_jal 7y ago
This. It is a special combination of sadistic and stupid, an American classic.
- cloverich 7y ago
  I'm skeptical. I think more likely its an intentional diversion to create and protect sophisticated loopholes for high income earners and companies. Its a reasonable strategy that obviously works and clearly explains their otherwise contradictory position.
  - nameless912 7y ago
    Porqúe no los dos? One thing I've learned about American politics is that if there's a sadistic answer that screws the poor and a greedy answer that advantages the rich, often _both_ are correct.
- logfromblammo 7y ago
  While sadism and stupidity may be two of the reasons for the US tax code, there are surely others. I also suggest extending special privileges to the rich without making that obvious to the poor, forging a weapon to use against political enemies, creating a huge number of bureaucratic jobs, benefiting a legislator's constituent state at the expense of the others, obfuscating the sources of government revenues, and as a means to launder dirty money into clean. There are almost certainly others.
jimmydddd 7y ago
I sort of agree with the pain guys. I'm currently self employed (US) and have to separately pay estimated taxes quarterly. Since I've been doing this, I'm a lot more sensitive to politicians who want to raise my taxes. Similarly, there is a group in the US whose main goal is to change the law so that employers can't pay your taxes on your behalf. Instead, you would get your full salary, and then have to write a check to pay your taxes. The group believes this would raise tax awareness.
- untog 7y ago
  I'm just imagining applying this principle more broadly. Perhaps before every meal I could be forced to calculate the number of calories in each item, total them up and submit them. Maybe before every car journey I could fill out an estimate of the wear and tear on the tyres, gearbox and suspension, and record that in a big log book of car events. Doesn't seem like a particularly useful way to approach life, to me.
  - abugheratwork 7y ago
    > Perhaps before every meal I could be forced to calculate the number of calories in each item, total them up and submit them. That's called Weight Watchers. The general principle was pretty effective for me. Most people don't keep a log of wear and tear on their car, but we definitely operate airplanes that way. That also seems pretty productive to me. But yeah, it's not the only way to operate. I don't really like the idea of putting more responsibility on people in order to "raise awareness". I take that to really mean someone would like everyone to be more upset about taxes, and would like to make them less convenient to increase upsetness.
  - pfranz 7y ago
    The technique is actually used a lot in diets and budgeting. Manually writing down everything you pay for helps you to notice that taxi you take every day or how often you "splurge" for coffee. Same with calories and that afternoon or midnight snack. But forcing it just wastes everyones time, adds red tape, and additional bureaucracy they purport to rail against.
- 7y ago
SkyBelow 7y ago
I suggest we stop taking taxes out of paychecks and have people pay their full taxes once a year. It would help them see the total amount of taxes they pay. It would have a positive effect on government policy.
- sunderw 7y ago
  It used to be that way in France until last year. The income taxes are now substracted directly on your paycheck. I personnaly prefer having a small amout taken each month than an enormous sum as a one-time payment.
- abustamam 7y ago
  You can already see this on your pay stub (if you look at it, I know I don't bother with mine) In principle I like your suggestion but in actuality I think many Americans will not like their "yearly tax bill." Just think about people who are already living paycheck to paycheck; not saving much, or just overall spending every penny that comes into their bank account. They would be in trouble come April if they had to pay it at that point. Perhaps they could do a monthly installment payment for last year's taxes... And the taxpayer would auto pay once or twice a month when they get paid... But then, we're back to where we started. Tldr in an ideal world where every citizen is disciplined about not spending every penny they get, this suggestion would be great.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    ...in an ideal world, they wouldn't have to spend every penny, either.
    - abustamam 7y ago
      I would argue in an ideal world money wouldn't exist but I think people have different ideals in that sense :) I know some people _have_ to spend every penny because they need to to survive, but there are also plenty of people who spend every penny because they just have no discipline and buy anything they want without regard to whether or not they could afford it. Ideally the people in the former category would get some sort of welfare. Not sure what, if anything, to do with the people in the latter.

jedimastert 7y ago

> Can the government please make something that's easy to use? To be frank, the government has issues making things usable, and "usable" is a pretty small target when you're talking about the entire US workforce.

wffurr 7y ago
18F has really changed the game in government IT and software. https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://18f.gsa.gov/ They brought in a bunch of dedicated experienced software pros who among other things rescued the federal health insurance exchange site. I think they could do a fine job with tax software.
- entropicdrifter 7y ago
  Thanks Obama
isostatic 7y ago
One of the best sites to 'do stuff' in the UK is gov.uk I've just filled in a new ESTA application on the US gov site too, simple (albeit stupid), and worked. This morning however I tried using enterprise b2b to book a hire car, it took 6 attempts before it actually worked. Almost all corporate tools seem to be terrible.
peteradio 7y ago
The government has issues holding private companies accountable when they fail to deliver.

cvhashim 7y ago

Tax lobbyists like Intuit benefit too much from all of this really. Planet money podcast episode that outlines some of this. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis... Also Reply All did an episode recently on the Propublica Intuit story. https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nhgol https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nhgol

cpwright 7y ago

Filing taxes does not actually require a separate company to help with. You can download the PDFs (or go to the post office), read the directions and fill them out yourself. I have never actually done that; but my parents did well after I was using software, which sure is more convenient.

magashna 7y ago
I think if you make under $70k or so you can do it online as well, there's a few sites that officially help you on behalf of the IRS.
- sneeze-slayer 7y ago
  Like TurboTax?
  - magashna 7y ago
    Turbotax appears to have one of the lower limits, and also are supposedly very difficult about doing the free option. https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/jsp/index.jsp https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/jsp/index.jsp
    - sneeze-slayer 7y ago
      My point was more that these companies offer a solution that is just barely workable so that the IRS does not just create their own usable, free software. I honestly consider them a leech on the economy.
athenot 7y ago
I used to do that. Because I'm a proud software engineer and why should this stuff be complicated? It's just numbers you add or subtract... wait, does the Transmogrifier Deduction for Frobnubilors apply when you claim to be Single-and-Only Highlander? pauses and takes 1 hour to read up on the IRS rules for this and compares with the advice of $random_internet_guy And after the personal satisfaction of having completed everything myself, I file and a few months later get a letter from the IRS to the effect of "Dear Mr Bonehead, you totally forgot this obvious item, so we're going to refund you a bit more. You're welcome." Taxes are not hard if you know how all of the rules apply to your special situation. If you don't, like most people, you're in the dark and it becomes a very poor use of time, with lost money at stake—or worse if your intentions are deemed to be fraudulent.

Shivetya 7y ago

How many pages of the supposed eight thousand plus pages of tax law apply to the majority of those who file taxes? The IRS certainly can tell me when I am wrong but they won't do it except when the result is in their favor; in my case I was improperly not filing HSA expenditures which would have resulted in me getting more back. It comes down to this and I do not blame Turbo Tax or any other company in this area. The Federal and State Tax codes are weaponized by politicians and until that stops the system will be too complex for many to do the the filing on their own and some of that is because there is always that "did I forget something" feeling. At least the changes made recently helped the lower and middle classes out a lot, that doubling of the personal deduction was a god send in reducing the work needed as many will never need to itemize again

freddie_mercury 7y ago
> The IRS certainly can tell me when I am wrong but they won't do it except when the result is in their favor Yes they will. I don't know why you bother to make up a lie so easily disproved. On September 9, 2019, I received a CP16 that stated "We believe there are miscalculations on your 2018 Form 1040, which affect the following areas of your return: - Tax Computation We made changes to your return that correct these errors. As a result, your overpayment is $21,886.35. Information was changed because of the following: We changed the amount of tax reported on your tax return because the tax rates on Qualified Dividends and Capital Gains are generally lower than the standard rates. It appears your tax was not computed using these rates or the amount of tax was computed incorrectly. (211D)"
- symlinkk 7y ago
  Holy shit talk about a humble brag. You overpaid by $21k? You must be balling.
  - 0xffff2 7y ago
    At a 15% rate, that's only 140k in capital gains. Significant, but hardly "balling" if it's a one-time event.

sschueller 7y ago

I find it interesting that these scam callers warning about IRS suing only works in countries where making an honest mistake on your taxes can result you being threatened with or going to prison.

0xffff2 7y ago
Which countries are those? I've never been in the position personally, but everything I've ever read says that the IRS is very unlikely to do anything more than demand that you pay the taxes you owe in the case of honest mistakes.

skeptical900067 7y ago

I use the free fillable forms. Happy with it every year so far. If turbo tax makes them go away, I'll get real politically involved real quick.

77pt77 7y ago
A private company stills gets your data. You are not filling directly with the IRS.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kansface 7y ago

> Can the government please make something that's easy to use? Many law makers don't want the Government to make this process easy on the assumption that the easier it is for the Government to tax, the more it will do so.