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Free fillable forms[1] has been around for a number of years and van be used by anyone regardless of income level. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Fil

by u801e 7y ago

Free fillable forms[1] has been around for a number of years and van be used by anyone regardless of income level. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File#Free_File_Fillable_Forms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File#Free_File_Fillable...

grepthisab 7y ago
Haven't read the article yet, but I assume they're probably talking about the lobbying to remove free filing or TurboTax's attempts to hide the free option as much as possible with a thousand ways to upsell you by using dark patterns during the tax filing process.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  This, a thousand times over.
- Frost1x 7y ago
  It's hilarious how groups like Intuit market their tax filing product as free, then make it nearly impossible to go through a free path to filing for pretty much anyone. Personally, I avoid companies that use dishonest practices like this and hope they go under, but so much for "voting with my checkbook" in today's society. Power has shifted too much that it's going to be quite hard to pull it back to the average citizen.
- stagger87 7y ago
  I'm only responding so others who decide not to read the article don't make incorrect assumptions like yourself. The free file-able online forms are easy to find and are not part of turbo taxes offerings. Turbo tax uses shady tactics to hide their own free offerings which they are supposed to be offering as part of a deal with the government. Free file forms are basically digital tax forms and are much more convenient over paper. Up to certain incomes they will even do most of the work for you.
justin66 7y ago
It does not have the dialogs to walk you through the weird parts of filing a tax return. It's not really comparable to something like TurboTax.
- SamuelAdams 7y ago
  What parts are the "weird parts of filing a tax return"? Not trying to come across as combative, I'm just genuinely curious.
  - justin66 7y ago
    There are a few things that are always extremely odd to figure out (or at least, I always waste a lot of time on them) when preparing the forms. What's deductible vs what isn't with retirement accounts, student loan repayments, and - for the love of God - the Health Savings Account stuff. It's been a long time since I had to think about it but I'm sure some hn users have struggles figuring out their stock options. TurboTax asks you questions and guides you through entering the data. It's all fairly intuitive and you'll have a feel for whether you've done everything completely. Free Fillable Forms, which I've used the last couple of times, is just one step up from doing everything on paper. It is not bad if you know what you're in for, but it is not the same experience as something like TurboTax or the H&R Block tool.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Copy line 13 of form 8765 to line 32 of form 5432... This is more tedious, except that it gets very easy to miss one of those steps in the list of things that don't apply. (most people have never worked for the railroad and skip a bunch of steps for railroad retirees)
  - joezydeco 7y ago
    Think of these "free fillable forms" as a spreadsheet. Numbers go in boxes, other boxes compute themselves and nothing more. Now go look at the IRS instructions for a typical schedule. Here's a common one, Schedule A for itemized deductions: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sca.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sca.pdf It's a mere 17 pages including lookup tables. Pretty lightweight. Some go way longer. Now, is all of this information and logic put into the free form calculator? It's not. So you need to read along with these instructions and follow all of the conditionals and detours described inside. This is what you're buying when you buy a tax prep program, and this is what's missing from the free options.
ejstronge 7y ago
> Free fillable forms[1] has been around for a number of years and van be used by anyone regardless of income level. The article focuses on many issues, and the existence of such forms doesn't diminish from its importance.
dangus 7y ago
They are still an unnecessarily painful solution. I did do these last year to finally kick TurboTax to the curb. However, they’re shamefully complex especially considering how they’re already a piece of software. They barely do basic arithmetic. The restrictions are entirely artificial, and the system is gamed so that you either spend a lot of time learning tax form rules and lingo or you just pay TurboTax to do it for you. The IRS could very easily send a pre-filled tax form for most Americans to verify and sign like other countries do. All the relevant information is already reported to the IRS. Only business owners and people with exotic tax situations would ever have to fill anything out - especially considering our now-higher standard deduction that most people don’t hit. Despite my complaints I still highly recommend everyone use free fillable forms. You’ll actually understand what is happening with your taxes by the end of it. And without that understanding you have no idea if TurboTax is doing it right.
- SamuelAdams 7y ago
  What about the free forms is painful? I have only ever filed via these forms - I've never used TurboTax, and my AGI exceeds the limits on the federal free file software. To me, it's pretty simple: you read the instruction book and go through it line by line. If you have odd forms to complete, like paperwork for an HSA, a quick google search will set you in the right direction. People with more complicated tax returns will always need a professional's expertise. But for 90% of people who have one income source for one household, the paper forms are very intuitive. I think people think they are "painful" because they need to read and comprehend more.
  - keb_ 7y ago
    I think they are "painful" because they are tedious and unnecessary assuming the government can already pre-fill the information. You also have to understand that many people may not have the same reading comprehension skills as you do.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    That's not what intuitive means. ('intuitive' is over used as a goal, but a form where you look up the instructions line by line in a separate book and where you occasionally have to search out how to fill out a subform is not intuitive at all.)
peter303 7y ago
IRS has your W2s and 1099s by February. It could compute and suggest your takes based on your previous year age & family profile. It already does this verify your filing.
peter303 7y ago
You could miss forms like AMT and NET with FFF. Until recent tax reform I was borderline most years, so defer to tax software to determine if I had these taxes. ACA penalty a mess too.
JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
Free File Fillable Forms is made by Intuit.

by u801e 7y ago

grepthisab 7y ago

Haven't read the article yet, but I assume they're probably talking about the lobbying to remove free filing or TurboTax's attempts to hide the free option as much as possible with a thousand ways to upsell you by using dark patterns during the tax filing process.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
This, a thousand times over.
Frost1x 7y ago
It's hilarious how groups like Intuit market their tax filing product as free, then make it nearly impossible to go through a free path to filing for pretty much anyone. Personally, I avoid companies that use dishonest practices like this and hope they go under, but so much for "voting with my checkbook" in today's society. Power has shifted too much that it's going to be quite hard to pull it back to the average citizen.
stagger87 7y ago
I'm only responding so others who decide not to read the article don't make incorrect assumptions like yourself. The free file-able online forms are easy to find and are not part of turbo taxes offerings. Turbo tax uses shady tactics to hide their own free offerings which they are supposed to be offering as part of a deal with the government. Free file forms are basically digital tax forms and are much more convenient over paper. Up to certain incomes they will even do most of the work for you.

justin66 7y ago

It does not have the dialogs to walk you through the weird parts of filing a tax return. It's not really comparable to something like TurboTax.

SamuelAdams 7y ago
What parts are the "weird parts of filing a tax return"? Not trying to come across as combative, I'm just genuinely curious.
- justin66 7y ago
  There are a few things that are always extremely odd to figure out (or at least, I always waste a lot of time on them) when preparing the forms. What's deductible vs what isn't with retirement accounts, student loan repayments, and - for the love of God - the Health Savings Account stuff. It's been a long time since I had to think about it but I'm sure some hn users have struggles figuring out their stock options. TurboTax asks you questions and guides you through entering the data. It's all fairly intuitive and you'll have a feel for whether you've done everything completely. Free Fillable Forms, which I've used the last couple of times, is just one step up from doing everything on paper. It is not bad if you know what you're in for, but it is not the same experience as something like TurboTax or the H&R Block tool.
- bluGill 7y ago
  Copy line 13 of form 8765 to line 32 of form 5432... This is more tedious, except that it gets very easy to miss one of those steps in the list of things that don't apply. (most people have never worked for the railroad and skip a bunch of steps for railroad retirees)
- joezydeco 7y ago
  Think of these "free fillable forms" as a spreadsheet. Numbers go in boxes, other boxes compute themselves and nothing more. Now go look at the IRS instructions for a typical schedule. Here's a common one, Schedule A for itemized deductions: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sca.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sca.pdf It's a mere 17 pages including lookup tables. Pretty lightweight. Some go way longer. Now, is all of this information and logic put into the free form calculator? It's not. So you need to read along with these instructions and follow all of the conditionals and detours described inside. This is what you're buying when you buy a tax prep program, and this is what's missing from the free options.

ejstronge 7y ago

> Free fillable forms[1] has been around for a number of years and van be used by anyone regardless of income level. The article focuses on many issues, and the existence of such forms doesn't diminish from its importance.

dangus 7y ago

They are still an unnecessarily painful solution. I did do these last year to finally kick TurboTax to the curb. However, they’re shamefully complex especially considering how they’re already a piece of software. They barely do basic arithmetic. The restrictions are entirely artificial, and the system is gamed so that you either spend a lot of time learning tax form rules and lingo or you just pay TurboTax to do it for you. The IRS could very easily send a pre-filled tax form for most Americans to verify and sign like other countries do. All the relevant information is already reported to the IRS. Only business owners and people with exotic tax situations would ever have to fill anything out - especially considering our now-higher standard deduction that most people don’t hit. Despite my complaints I still highly recommend everyone use free fillable forms. You’ll actually understand what is happening with your taxes by the end of it. And without that understanding you have no idea if TurboTax is doing it right.

SamuelAdams 7y ago
What about the free forms is painful? I have only ever filed via these forms - I've never used TurboTax, and my AGI exceeds the limits on the federal free file software. To me, it's pretty simple: you read the instruction book and go through it line by line. If you have odd forms to complete, like paperwork for an HSA, a quick google search will set you in the right direction. People with more complicated tax returns will always need a professional's expertise. But for 90% of people who have one income source for one household, the paper forms are very intuitive. I think people think they are "painful" because they need to read and comprehend more.
- keb_ 7y ago
  I think they are "painful" because they are tedious and unnecessary assuming the government can already pre-fill the information. You also have to understand that many people may not have the same reading comprehension skills as you do.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  That's not what intuitive means. ('intuitive' is over used as a goal, but a form where you look up the instructions line by line in a separate book and where you occasionally have to search out how to fill out a subform is not intuitive at all.)

peter303 7y ago

IRS has your W2s and 1099s by February. It could compute and suggest your takes based on your previous year age & family profile. It already does this verify your filing.

peter303 7y ago

You could miss forms like AMT and NET with FFF. Until recent tax reform I was borderline most years, so defer to tax software to determine if I had these taxes. ACA penalty a mess too.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

Free File Fillable Forms is made by Intuit.