5 ms·

Human rights aren't politics, they're non-negotiable.

fipar 7y ago
I was born under a dictatorship (that fortunately became again a democracy while I was still a child) and I can tell you human rights don't exist unless you have enough people willing and able to stand up for them. More broadly, laws aren't worth the paper they're written on if you don't have a police and armed forces willing and able to uphold them. I understand what your point is; I've talked to several people who voice the same opinion when discussing my country's dark past, but trust me, when the bullies get to power, you can't shout "it's a human right!" back at them. You either have to fight back, hide, or run away.
- atomi 7y ago
  We're American. We fight back.
notadoc 7y ago
People disagree on what exactly qualifies as "human rights" though, and perhaps that's where it becomes political.
yawgmoth 7y ago
Agreed. I am reminded of MLK Jr's Letter From A Birmingham Jail: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.... The salient point being that indifference at scale is worse than individuals with explicit bias.
claudeganon 7y ago
While this seems self-evident, this claim is only made possible by a mass politics and organization to defend its “non-negotiability.” Arendt wrote about this problem as the “right to have rights” http://criticallegalthinking.com/2019/07/12/hannah-arendt-right-to-have-rights/ http://criticallegalthinking.com/2019/07/12/hannah-arendt-ri...
Hamuko 7y ago
Human rights are massively political. Saying anything else is either ignorant or naive. Soviet bloc countries didn't vote for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights because of the right of citizens to leave their countries. And let's not get into the human rights of Uyghurs and the worldwide approval/disapproval to China's re-education camps.
einpoklum 7y ago
There are few things more political than rights, their extent, their upholding or abrogation, their contradiction etc.
jlawson 7y ago
Right, and when different human rights conflict, then we resolve the conflict through a political process. Simple example: Religious freedom/freedom of speech and gay rights. So should the Christian baker be _forced_ to make a cake with words explicitly against his religious beliefs? Which human rights come first here?
Smithalicious 7y ago
Human rights exist only as a political construct formed by many treaties and agreements which have been thoroughly negotiated. I could not come up with anything more political than international law if I tried.
smudgymcscmudge 7y ago
I might agree with you that human rights are non-negotiable, but we're probably going to get into a fight when it comes time to list those human rights.
oh_sigh 7y ago
Who said otherwise?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kazinator 7y ago
Rights are absolutely negotiable; it's part of your right to be able to trade some of your rights for some benefit. If you're employed at a desk job, you've traded much of your human right to be wherever the heck you want between the hours of 9 and 5, Monday through Friday, in exchange for a salary.

I was born under a dictatorship (that fortunately became again a democracy while I was still a child) and I can tell you human rights don't exist unless you have enough people willing and able to stand up for them. More broadly, laws aren't worth the paper they're written on if you don't have a police and armed forces willing and able to uphold them. I understand what your point is; I've talked to several people who voice the same opinion when discussing my country's dark past, but trust me, when the bullies get to power, you can't shout "it's a human right!" back at them. You either have to fight back, hide, or run away.

atomi 7y ago
We're American. We fight back.

notadoc 7y ago

People disagree on what exactly qualifies as "human rights" though, and perhaps that's where it becomes political.

yawgmoth 7y ago

Agreed. I am reminded of MLK Jr's Letter From A Birmingham Jail: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.... The salient point being that indifference at scale is worse than individuals with explicit bias.

claudeganon 7y ago

While this seems self-evident, this claim is only made possible by a mass politics and organization to defend its “non-negotiability.” Arendt wrote about this problem as the “right to have rights” http://criticallegalthinking.com/2019/07/12/hannah-arendt-right-to-have-rights/ http://criticallegalthinking.com/2019/07/12/hannah-arendt-ri...

Hamuko 7y ago

Human rights are massively political. Saying anything else is either ignorant or naive. Soviet bloc countries didn't vote for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights because of the right of citizens to leave their countries. And let's not get into the human rights of Uyghurs and the worldwide approval/disapproval to China's re-education camps.

einpoklum 7y ago

There are few things more political than rights, their extent, their upholding or abrogation, their contradiction etc.

jlawson 7y ago

Right, and when different human rights conflict, then we resolve the conflict through a political process. Simple example: Religious freedom/freedom of speech and gay rights. So should the Christian baker be _forced_ to make a cake with words explicitly against his religious beliefs? Which human rights come first here?

Smithalicious 7y ago

Human rights exist only as a political construct formed by many treaties and agreements which have been thoroughly negotiated. I could not come up with anything more political than international law if I tried.

smudgymcscmudge 7y ago

I might agree with you that human rights are non-negotiable, but we're probably going to get into a fight when it comes time to list those human rights.

oh_sigh 7y ago

Who said otherwise?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kazinator 7y ago

Rights are absolutely negotiable; it's part of your right to be able to trade some of your rights for some benefit. If you're employed at a desk job, you've traded much of your human right to be wherever the heck you want between the hours of 9 and 5, Monday through Friday, in exchange for a salary.