5 ms·

In the article, Boise is challenging a court ruling that cities cannot ticket or arrest the homeless if there are no shelter beds available. This begs the quest

by dv_dt 7y ago

In the article, Boise is challenging a court ruling that cities cannot ticket or arrest the homeless if there are no shelter beds available. This begs the question how ticketing/arresting clears the streets? By shoving them elsewhere for another city to ticket? Or housing them in jail (at a much higher expense)? Later in the article it does mention that LA (correction from Boise) is also voiding millions of citations on the homeless, and that those citations were keeping the homeless from accessing services, like housing. That brings even more questions about the usefulness of ticketing for homelessness. Edit: correction it is LA not Boise voiding citations.

Spellman 7y ago
Usually putting them in jail. Then at least you don't have residents complaining about homeless tent camps. And the cops feel like they have a tool to "fight homelessness." And the added (perceived) incentive of disincentivizing people from coming to your area to be homeless and set up semi-permanent tent camps.
- romaaeterna 7y ago
  And women and children being able to walk the streets without being harassed is another -- as you might write "(perceived)" -- incentive.
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    Unless, of course, those women and children are homeless.
    - ummonk 7y ago
      Nearly all homeless are adult men.
      - jlmorton 7y ago
        Not true. In San Francisco, 35% of homeless residents in the last point-in-time count identified as female, and another six percent identified as another non-male gender.
        sieabahlpark 7y ago
        Some would say 75% is the majority.
        sieabahlpark 7y ago
        65%, unable to edit my comment for some reason.
        aidenn0 7y ago
        Few would say 65% is "Nearly all"
      - aidenn0 7y ago
        39% of homeless are female 20% of all homeless are under 18 Source: https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2018-AHAR-Part-1.pdf https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2018-AHAR-P... Page 11.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        That isn’t true. First, you have to distinguish between the visible and invisible homeless. Homeless women who aren’t mentally ill or heavily into drugs are very likely to get access to a shelter at least, so you wouldn’t notice them (the same is true for men as well, just less so). And then you have mentally ill or heavily drug addicted women, you notice these in LA also. It isn’t clear to me why there are more men in this category than women, but perhaps they get more family or social support as well.
        7y ago
    - romaaeterna 7y ago
      No. If there are children in any of these encampments, I would say that they need to especially be broken up. Homelessness in modern America is to a great degree elective. People need to be harassed off the streets and into shelters for their own welfare -- especially children -- or involuntarily committed.
      - playeren 7y ago
        > Homelessness in modern America is to a great degree elective How did you determine that?
        romaaeterna 7y ago
        I've worked on getting some individual people into assisted living situations, etc. The problem has never been lack of beds. It has been the individual involved. There are a few good books on all of this. It's not a resource problem in the Western world. It's a mental illness and drug problem. EDIT: I should say rather, the major problem has never been lack of beds. Sometimes I've had to wait a few days, etc., or choose a different place. Nobody has infinite money. But it has never been a major or insurmountable problem.
        playeren 7y ago
        Assuming your limited interface is representative, and there in fact always are more usable beds available than homeless people (I doubt this, but only have anecdotal evidence to the contrary from working with homeless people) - how does that translate into 'homelessness is elective'? I've seen a multitude of reasons that destroy peoples lives, and makes them unable to be a productive, rent-paying, law-abiding citizen. Also, bed availability aside - I've heard many who are scared of the available shelters, due to threats, drug dealing or harassment from other ill-fortuned inhabitants. Maybe we just define 'elective' differently. I urge anybody who is worried about homelessness in their area, to try and dig deeper into possible root-causes for wide-spread homelessness. Maybe each and every individual homeless person have made bad or even catastrophic decisions that led them to their calamity, but if that really is the case (just for arguments sake - my experience says otherwise for most cases), why are so many making these bad decisions? Let's treat systemic problems as such, and make sure that we don't only focus on relieving symptoms, and maybe we find homelessness to be a solvable problem.
- dv_dt 7y ago
  On one hand, I do understand these are tools to "do something" that may occasionally help, on the other hand, sometimes tools when available become overused and I think are fundamentally inadequate for addressing the root (very difficult) problem. I think LA has actually in recent years brought online a lot of added housing for the homeless, but unfortunately the numbers of homeless seems to also be surging upwards; and in almost all US cities it seems.
drew-y 7y ago
I think that is an error in the article. I live in Boise. The law allows ticketing if there IS room in shelters. People would not be ticketed if the shelters are full. Not saying it's a good law. But the article is wrong. Edit: Here is the relevant section of the actual code. > Enforcement: Law enforcement officers shall not enforce this camping section when the individual is on public property and there is no available overnight shelter https://citycode.cityofboise.org/home/standard/7-3A-2 https://citycode.cityofboise.org/home/standard/7-3A-2
- neonate 7y ago
  The article says that. Boise Mayor David Bieter is attempting to challenge a landmark federal court ruling that prohibits cities from ticketing or arresting homeless people for sleeping or camping on public property if there are no shelter beds available as an alternative.
- notus 7y ago
  Hi Boise person, been thinking of visiting your city for the first time because I hear so many great things about it (except for this mayor), when is the best time to visit?
  - drew-y 7y ago
    Mid to late spring is my favorite time of the year. Perfect temperature and lots too explore. Plus the waterfalls outside of town are at their peak.
veezbo 7y ago
LA is the city that's voiding the citations.
- dv_dt 7y ago
  Ah you're right thanks, and edited. There was a semi-ambiguous "they" I tripped over not reading quite closely enough in the article.
Bartweiss 7y ago
> This begs the question how ticketing/arresting clears the streets [if there are no shelter beds available]? By shoving them elsewhere for another city to ticket? Driving people elsewhere is one major mechanism. That can mean to other cities - it's a zero-sum game, but so is buying homeless people bus tickets to leave, and cities do that too.[1] It can also mean pushing them outside city limits into the metro area, or into less-desirable areas with fewer officers and/or informal instructions not to ticket the homeless. (Similarly, arresting homeless people isn't meant to house them in jail, but to get them out of heavily-policed areas.) [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/14/us/homeless-busing-seattle-san-francisco.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/14/us/homeless-busing-seattl...
- jcoffland 7y ago
  > Driving people elsewhere is one major mechanism. This is exactly how Boise has kept it's homeless population low for many years. First they ticket people, then jail them and finally offer to let them go if they get on a bus headed out of the state.

by dv_dt 7y ago

Spellman 7y ago

Usually putting them in jail. Then at least you don't have residents complaining about homeless tent camps. And the cops feel like they have a tool to "fight homelessness." And the added (perceived) incentive of disincentivizing people from coming to your area to be homeless and set up semi-permanent tent camps.

romaaeterna 7y ago
And women and children being able to walk the streets without being harassed is another -- as you might write "(perceived)" -- incentive.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  Unless, of course, those women and children are homeless.
  - ummonk 7y ago
    Nearly all homeless are adult men.
    - jlmorton 7y ago
      Not true. In San Francisco, 35% of homeless residents in the last point-in-time count identified as female, and another six percent identified as another non-male gender.
      - sieabahlpark 7y ago
        Some would say 75% is the majority.
        sieabahlpark 7y ago
        65%, unable to edit my comment for some reason.
        aidenn0 7y ago
        Few would say 65% is "Nearly all"
    - aidenn0 7y ago
      39% of homeless are female 20% of all homeless are under 18 Source: https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2018-AHAR-Part-1.pdf https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2018-AHAR-P... Page 11.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      That isn’t true. First, you have to distinguish between the visible and invisible homeless. Homeless women who aren’t mentally ill or heavily into drugs are very likely to get access to a shelter at least, so you wouldn’t notice them (the same is true for men as well, just less so). And then you have mentally ill or heavily drug addicted women, you notice these in LA also. It isn’t clear to me why there are more men in this category than women, but perhaps they get more family or social support as well.
      - 7y ago
  - romaaeterna 7y ago
    No. If there are children in any of these encampments, I would say that they need to especially be broken up. Homelessness in modern America is to a great degree elective. People need to be harassed off the streets and into shelters for their own welfare -- especially children -- or involuntarily committed.
    - playeren 7y ago
      > Homelessness in modern America is to a great degree elective How did you determine that?
      - romaaeterna 7y ago
        I've worked on getting some individual people into assisted living situations, etc. The problem has never been lack of beds. It has been the individual involved. There are a few good books on all of this. It's not a resource problem in the Western world. It's a mental illness and drug problem. EDIT: I should say rather, the major problem has never been lack of beds. Sometimes I've had to wait a few days, etc., or choose a different place. Nobody has infinite money. But it has never been a major or insurmountable problem.
        playeren 7y ago
        Assuming your limited interface is representative, and there in fact always are more usable beds available than homeless people (I doubt this, but only have anecdotal evidence to the contrary from working with homeless people) - how does that translate into 'homelessness is elective'? I've seen a multitude of reasons that destroy peoples lives, and makes them unable to be a productive, rent-paying, law-abiding citizen. Also, bed availability aside - I've heard many who are scared of the available shelters, due to threats, drug dealing or harassment from other ill-fortuned inhabitants. Maybe we just define 'elective' differently. I urge anybody who is worried about homelessness in their area, to try and dig deeper into possible root-causes for wide-spread homelessness. Maybe each and every individual homeless person have made bad or even catastrophic decisions that led them to their calamity, but if that really is the case (just for arguments sake - my experience says otherwise for most cases), why are so many making these bad decisions? Let's treat systemic problems as such, and make sure that we don't only focus on relieving symptoms, and maybe we find homelessness to be a solvable problem.
dv_dt 7y ago
On one hand, I do understand these are tools to "do something" that may occasionally help, on the other hand, sometimes tools when available become overused and I think are fundamentally inadequate for addressing the root (very difficult) problem. I think LA has actually in recent years brought online a lot of added housing for the homeless, but unfortunately the numbers of homeless seems to also be surging upwards; and in almost all US cities it seems.

drew-y 7y ago

I think that is an error in the article. I live in Boise. The law allows ticketing if there IS room in shelters. People would not be ticketed if the shelters are full. Not saying it's a good law. But the article is wrong. Edit: Here is the relevant section of the actual code. > Enforcement: Law enforcement officers shall not enforce this camping section when the individual is on public property and there is no available overnight shelter https://citycode.cityofboise.org/home/standard/7-3A-2 https://citycode.cityofboise.org/home/standard/7-3A-2

neonate 7y ago
The article says that. Boise Mayor David Bieter is attempting to challenge a landmark federal court ruling that prohibits cities from ticketing or arresting homeless people for sleeping or camping on public property if there are no shelter beds available as an alternative.
notus 7y ago
Hi Boise person, been thinking of visiting your city for the first time because I hear so many great things about it (except for this mayor), when is the best time to visit?
- drew-y 7y ago
  Mid to late spring is my favorite time of the year. Perfect temperature and lots too explore. Plus the waterfalls outside of town are at their peak.

veezbo 7y ago

LA is the city that's voiding the citations.

dv_dt 7y ago
Ah you're right thanks, and edited. There was a semi-ambiguous "they" I tripped over not reading quite closely enough in the article.

Bartweiss 7y ago

> This begs the question how ticketing/arresting clears the streets [if there are no shelter beds available]? By shoving them elsewhere for another city to ticket? Driving people elsewhere is one major mechanism. That can mean to other cities - it's a zero-sum game, but so is buying homeless people bus tickets to leave, and cities do that too.[1] It can also mean pushing them outside city limits into the metro area, or into less-desirable areas with fewer officers and/or informal instructions not to ticket the homeless. (Similarly, arresting homeless people isn't meant to house them in jail, but to get them out of heavily-policed areas.) [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/14/us/homeless-busing-seattle-san-francisco.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/14/us/homeless-busing-seattl...

jcoffland 7y ago
> Driving people elsewhere is one major mechanism. This is exactly how Boise has kept it's homeless population low for many years. First they ticket people, then jail them and finally offer to let them go if they get on a bus headed out of the state.