8 ms·

Don't conflate Apple's monopoly with Google's store. Anyone can go install F-Droid or Amazon or whatever on their Android phone. The only thing stopping peopl

Don't conflate Apple's monopoly with Google's store. Anyone can go install F-Droid or Amazon or whatever on their Android phone. The only thing stopping people is satisfaction with the status quo and/or ignorance. However, Apple totally rules their walled garden, with some added gross exploitation to boot (recent "Sherlocking" story for Luna Display).

lovelearning 7y ago
Android/Google don't make it easy though. Installing an APK requires a security setting change. Search results for "install f-droid on android" on google are very unhelpful for a general user compared to search results from DDG or Bing.
- xnyan 7y ago
  I’m fine with that being difficult. My grandmother, bless her wonderful heart, clicks on everything no matter what you tell her or do. I like being able to give her a lockeddown android device and I know that she has no reasonable way to escape the android market (which is what she wants) but I can still drill into the menus and do as i will
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Nudging non-technical users to a trustworthy default store without actually restricting alternative sources is a pretty good solution for protecting non-technical users without limiting users' freedom. But it still gives the store operator an extremely strong market position, making meaningful competition very unlikely. In fact, for non-technical users it's a monopoly because they aren't in the market for apps but for apps they can trust aren't malware. So this is no excuse for Google banning apps to protect their profits at their users' expense.
- codazoda 7y ago
  I've never used f-droid, but decide to try it on my (original) Pixel XL. I clicked "Download" and the file saved. I pulled down the top drawer and opened the file with "files". I clicked the APK and got a security warning with a link to the exact "settings" page where I change it. I clicked the security option off. I returned to files and clicked the APK again and it installed. This is very wordy and sounds a bit complicated, but it was simply a few extra taps and it installed. A pretty good balance of not too easy that a novice might do it by accident and still accessable.
  - drcoopster 7y ago
    This requires users actually reading warnings and messages, which we know they don't do.
Santosh83 7y ago
This is one aspect and admittedly Android is better than Apple, but the other aspect (and more fundamental) is the ability to gain root on the system and do whatever you wish, and here both Google and Android (in the former case if not Google themselves then all the 3rd party Android vendors) lock down their devices. Rooting through exploits is not an acceptable solution.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  All Google phones and Android One devices have unlockable bootloaders.
  - tomatotomato37 7y ago
    Not unless they are sold through a wireless carrier that aggressively locks down bootloaders on even the Pixel phones
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - zelly 7y ago
      Yes do NOT buy a Pixel from ebay/amazon because they are all Verizon or Sprint bootloader locked, even if they can work on other carriers. Carriers lock bootloaders so you can't circumvent their tethering paywalls. Only Pixels from the official store are rootable.
  - SamBam 7y ago
    Rooting the Pixel 2 (I haven't tried the other Pixels) is not trivial for the average user, it still involves downloading third-party software and doing stuff on the command line. I had hoped that the pure-Google devices would have just had a switch: "I am now root," but alas it wasn't to be.
    - big_chungus 7y ago
      I'm not sure that's important. If you make it too easy, it's a security hole. So, you have to wipe the device, which makes since in preventing a hostile actor from pressing the, "I am mow root" button and either dumping everything or installing malware. I also don't see an issue with google not putting a fancy gui front-end on their dev tools. They're built for advanced users, and in some ways, that's a barrier to entry to the avg. guy can't mess up his system or get phished into pressing the "root button."
scarface74 7y ago
Yes and that is just a story. The ability to use your iPad as a second screen was first introduced by a third party app less than a year after the iPad was introduced in 2010.
Pxtl 7y ago
I have to say, I'm really disappointed how few open-source projects are even on F-Droid. It feels like every time I hear about a new OSS android app, I look for it on F-Droid and find it's only on the Play Store.
- panpanna 7y ago
  It's partially on fdroid. It's not always trivial to submit new apps and ensure it compiles correctly on their build servers. Same goes for updates, which can be silently dropped due to any number of tool issues. If you are a front or backend developer please consider investing a weekend or two helping fdroid improve their systems.
  - rjzzleep 7y ago
    Are these issues documented anywhere? Otherwise it's kinda hard to fix.
  - benibela 7y ago
    E.g. I tried to submit my app to F-Droid, but I wrote it in FreePascal+Lazarus, and they did not want to include it, because they did not have FreePascal+Lazarus installed.
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Not even as an .apk ?
oefrha 7y ago
The sherlocking story is as gross as, say, systemd implementing systemd.timer so that users don’t need a crappy, third-party, paid version of cron anymore (okay, the analogy breaks down since it’s pretty hard to find something less gross). Not that I’m a big fan of systemd, or stopped using cron.
iicc 7y ago
>Anyone can go install F-Droid or Amazon or whatever on their Android phone. F-Droid/Amazon/whatever can't automatically update installed apps unless the phone is rooted. It's not an even playing field - Google has a de facto monopoly on Android.
- nolok 7y ago
  > unless the phone is rooted. That's absolutely not true at all. All that happens is that, the first time you try to install from such an application (or any other application other than your store, eg: the first time you try to install an apk after you download it from your browser), a settings windows appears telling you this application can't install more applications on your phone until you give it permissions. From there giving the permission is a two click matter, and you don't need to look for it the link is given. See the exemple 2 pictures (and that's the only two steps - note that the "settings" button in the first takes you directly to the second picture, aka straight to the right settings page for the correct application, no looking around needed): https://imgur.com/a/Vafqyic https://imgur.com/a/Vafqyic Then you press back one time after giving the permission, which is the normal way to go back to what you were doing on android, and it works at expected, aka it goes back to the install screen except this time it enables the install button. Any porn site like youporn and pornhub, or epic with fortnite, etc ... Do it this way with no major issue, because the messages are super clear, and where to click to allow it is super clear, no need to look for it. If anything, this is almost too easy and I'm surprised there is not a bigger spread of malware through browsers using that, and I would be for it asking you to confirm your password before enabling that permission. EDIT: it appears I missed that parent was talking about UPDATING apps, not installing.
  - resfirestar 7y ago
    Comment you replied to was talking about automatic updates, not installing apps. Google Play and vendor installed apps can automatically update apps in the background without needing to prompt the user for permission to install each individual update, while a typical f-droid install requires the user to click through each update and press “install” at the prompt. This can be fixed by making f-droid a system app, which requires root or an unlocked bootloader.
heavyset_go 7y ago
Google neutered F-Droid's ability to do automatic updates.
gsich 7y ago
I can. But it's more a workaround. I have to allow all non-google-appstore apps to do this. Why not just allow this specific store? Similar to how repositories work.

lovelearning 7y ago

Android/Google don't make it easy though. Installing an APK requires a security setting change. Search results for "install f-droid on android" on google are very unhelpful for a general user compared to search results from DDG or Bing.

xnyan 7y ago
I’m fine with that being difficult. My grandmother, bless her wonderful heart, clicks on everything no matter what you tell her or do. I like being able to give her a lockeddown android device and I know that she has no reasonable way to escape the android market (which is what she wants) but I can still drill into the menus and do as i will
- anoncake 7y ago
  Nudging non-technical users to a trustworthy default store without actually restricting alternative sources is a pretty good solution for protecting non-technical users without limiting users' freedom. But it still gives the store operator an extremely strong market position, making meaningful competition very unlikely. In fact, for non-technical users it's a monopoly because they aren't in the market for apps but for apps they can trust aren't malware. So this is no excuse for Google banning apps to protect their profits at their users' expense.
codazoda 7y ago
I've never used f-droid, but decide to try it on my (original) Pixel XL. I clicked "Download" and the file saved. I pulled down the top drawer and opened the file with "files". I clicked the APK and got a security warning with a link to the exact "settings" page where I change it. I clicked the security option off. I returned to files and clicked the APK again and it installed. This is very wordy and sounds a bit complicated, but it was simply a few extra taps and it installed. A pretty good balance of not too easy that a novice might do it by accident and still accessable.
- drcoopster 7y ago
  This requires users actually reading warnings and messages, which we know they don't do.

Santosh83 7y ago

This is one aspect and admittedly Android is better than Apple, but the other aspect (and more fundamental) is the ability to gain root on the system and do whatever you wish, and here both Google and Android (in the former case if not Google themselves then all the 3rd party Android vendors) lock down their devices. Rooting through exploits is not an acceptable solution.

lern_too_spel 7y ago
All Google phones and Android One devices have unlockable bootloaders.
- tomatotomato37 7y ago
  Not unless they are sold through a wireless carrier that aggressively locks down bootloaders on even the Pixel phones
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - zelly 7y ago
    Yes do NOT buy a Pixel from ebay/amazon because they are all Verizon or Sprint bootloader locked, even if they can work on other carriers. Carriers lock bootloaders so you can't circumvent their tethering paywalls. Only Pixels from the official store are rootable.
- SamBam 7y ago
  Rooting the Pixel 2 (I haven't tried the other Pixels) is not trivial for the average user, it still involves downloading third-party software and doing stuff on the command line. I had hoped that the pure-Google devices would have just had a switch: "I am now root," but alas it wasn't to be.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    I'm not sure that's important. If you make it too easy, it's a security hole. So, you have to wipe the device, which makes since in preventing a hostile actor from pressing the, "I am mow root" button and either dumping everything or installing malware. I also don't see an issue with google not putting a fancy gui front-end on their dev tools. They're built for advanced users, and in some ways, that's a barrier to entry to the avg. guy can't mess up his system or get phished into pressing the "root button."

scarface74 7y ago

Yes and that is just a story. The ability to use your iPad as a second screen was first introduced by a third party app less than a year after the iPad was introduced in 2010.

Pxtl 7y ago

I have to say, I'm really disappointed how few open-source projects are even on F-Droid. It feels like every time I hear about a new OSS android app, I look for it on F-Droid and find it's only on the Play Store.

panpanna 7y ago
It's partially on fdroid. It's not always trivial to submit new apps and ensure it compiles correctly on their build servers. Same goes for updates, which can be silently dropped due to any number of tool issues. If you are a front or backend developer please consider investing a weekend or two helping fdroid improve their systems.
- rjzzleep 7y ago
  Are these issues documented anywhere? Otherwise it's kinda hard to fix.
- benibela 7y ago
  E.g. I tried to submit my app to F-Droid, but I wrote it in FreePascal+Lazarus, and they did not want to include it, because they did not have FreePascal+Lazarus installed.
BlueTemplar 7y ago
Not even as an .apk ?

oefrha 7y ago

The sherlocking story is as gross as, say, systemd implementing systemd.timer so that users don’t need a crappy, third-party, paid version of cron anymore (okay, the analogy breaks down since it’s pretty hard to find something less gross). Not that I’m a big fan of systemd, or stopped using cron.

iicc 7y ago

>Anyone can go install F-Droid or Amazon or whatever on their Android phone. F-Droid/Amazon/whatever can't automatically update installed apps unless the phone is rooted. It's not an even playing field - Google has a de facto monopoly on Android.

nolok 7y ago
> unless the phone is rooted. That's absolutely not true at all. All that happens is that, the first time you try to install from such an application (or any other application other than your store, eg: the first time you try to install an apk after you download it from your browser), a settings windows appears telling you this application can't install more applications on your phone until you give it permissions. From there giving the permission is a two click matter, and you don't need to look for it the link is given. See the exemple 2 pictures (and that's the only two steps - note that the "settings" button in the first takes you directly to the second picture, aka straight to the right settings page for the correct application, no looking around needed): https://imgur.com/a/Vafqyic https://imgur.com/a/Vafqyic Then you press back one time after giving the permission, which is the normal way to go back to what you were doing on android, and it works at expected, aka it goes back to the install screen except this time it enables the install button. Any porn site like youporn and pornhub, or epic with fortnite, etc ... Do it this way with no major issue, because the messages are super clear, and where to click to allow it is super clear, no need to look for it. If anything, this is almost too easy and I'm surprised there is not a bigger spread of malware through browsers using that, and I would be for it asking you to confirm your password before enabling that permission. EDIT: it appears I missed that parent was talking about UPDATING apps, not installing.
- resfirestar 7y ago
  Comment you replied to was talking about automatic updates, not installing apps. Google Play and vendor installed apps can automatically update apps in the background without needing to prompt the user for permission to install each individual update, while a typical f-droid install requires the user to click through each update and press “install” at the prompt. This can be fixed by making f-droid a system app, which requires root or an unlocked bootloader.

heavyset_go 7y ago

Google neutered F-Droid's ability to do automatic updates.

gsich 7y ago

I can. But it's more a workaround. I have to allow all non-google-appstore apps to do this. Why not just allow this specific store? Similar to how repositories work.