5 ms·

Free speech is an ideal, the constitutional protection is only an implementation and in the modern world arguably not the most important one. As for compelling

by flukus 7y ago

Free speech is an ideal, the constitutional protection is only an implementation and in the modern world arguably not the most important one. As for compelling companies to do business with people they don't want to, we crossed that line long ago, they can't refuse service to people on the ground of race, sex, etc. Are you in favor of getting rid of anti-discrimination laws?

triceratops 7y ago
Protected characteristics i.e. things you can't use as a basis for discrimination are things that people can't change about themselves. Refusing to do business because you don't like what someone is saying is different from refusing to do business on the basis of a protected characteristic.
- flukus 7y ago
  > Protected characteristics i.e. things you can't use as a basis for discrimination are things that people can't change about themselves. That's not true, the list of protected classes includes religion, gender, familial status and veteran status. All things which people have control over. But the point is we've already stomped all over any "right" a business has to deny service to someone. Instead of defending this right and the new age of corporate fascism that comes with it, why not go for something fully universal and remove a tool for CCP manipulation at the same time?
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    People have control over their gender? You should let everyone suffering from dysphoria know that!
    - flukus 7y ago
      Take that up with the people claiming gender is a social construct, that identify as gender fluid or making up the alphabet soup of modern genders. I had no part in that.
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        > Take that up with the people claiming gender is a social construct There's gender expression, and there's gender identity. The people that use that phrase to 100% include gender identity are pretty much all anti-trans bigots. I do take it up with them when the opportunity arises, but if you're going to say the same things then you're part of the problem. You can't say something and be blameless because you heard it from someone else. > that identify as gender fluid or making up the alphabet soup of modern genders Maybe some of them are going too hard on the need to categorize everything, but they're still not choosing that underlying nature.
  - triceratops 7y ago
    If you have deeply held faith in Religion A and you convert to Religion B purely to avoid discrimination, I don't count it as a real change, and the person themselves would probably not either. The only way to really change your religion is to have a heartfelt change in beliefs, and who has conscious control over that? Gender identity doesn't seem to be consciously changeable. Some people's gender may be different from their biological sex, but the identity itself is pretty deeply rooted. Familial and veteran status are also not changeable i.e. if you already have children or are a veteran, you can't go back and change that fact. Even though people have some degree of control over having a family in the first place or serving/not serving, because they have been used as a dimension of discrimination in the past, they've been lumped in as a protected characteristic. There's also nothing bad about having a family or serving/not serving - in contrast to discrimination over a criminal record (legal in many places AFAIK), which like familial & veteran status also can't be changed and which people also have some degree of control over.
    - flukus 7y ago
      > The only way to really change your religion is to have a heartfelt change in beliefs, and who has conscious control over that? Now consider how that applies to a white supremacist, the also have have a deeply held faith in their beliefs (as with most fringe groups), probably more so than most than most religious people. And their beliefs are often equally abhorrent. Why is it OK to discriminate against people that think the white race is superior but not to discriminate against people that think they're gods chosen people? What do we do when a religion thinks it's OK to discriminate against gay people? > Gender identity doesn't seem to be consciously changeable. Some people's gender may be different from their biological sex, but the identity itself is pretty deeply rooted. Some people switch based on mood, making it not an inherent characteristic: > Genderfluid people often express a desire to remain flexible about their gender identity rather than committing to a single definition.[20] They may fluctuate between differing gender expressions over their lifetime, or express multiple aspects of various gender markers at the same time.[20][21] They may at times identify as bigender - shifting between masculine and feminine; or as trigender - shifting between these and a third gender. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender And as a social construct it can change based on societal expectations and roles. > There's also nothing bad about having a family or serving/not serving - in contrast to discrimination over a criminal record (legal in many places AFAIK) On the military I disagree, there is something bad about being a willing participant in wars of aggression and I'd much rather be able to discriminate against them then I would a stoner that landed in jail. So instead of arguing about grey areas of what is an inherent trait and what is changeable along with how to handle conflicts between protected classes that themselves discriminate, let's make it illegal for companies to discriminate against individuals/organisations entirely?

by flukus 7y ago

triceratops 7y ago

Protected characteristics i.e. things you can't use as a basis for discrimination are things that people can't change about themselves. Refusing to do business because you don't like what someone is saying is different from refusing to do business on the basis of a protected characteristic.

flukus 7y ago
> Protected characteristics i.e. things you can't use as a basis for discrimination are things that people can't change about themselves. That's not true, the list of protected classes includes religion, gender, familial status and veteran status. All things which people have control over. But the point is we've already stomped all over any "right" a business has to deny service to someone. Instead of defending this right and the new age of corporate fascism that comes with it, why not go for something fully universal and remove a tool for CCP manipulation at the same time?
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  People have control over their gender? You should let everyone suffering from dysphoria know that!
  - flukus 7y ago
    Take that up with the people claiming gender is a social construct, that identify as gender fluid or making up the alphabet soup of modern genders. I had no part in that.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      > Take that up with the people claiming gender is a social construct There's gender expression, and there's gender identity. The people that use that phrase to 100% include gender identity are pretty much all anti-trans bigots. I do take it up with them when the opportunity arises, but if you're going to say the same things then you're part of the problem. You can't say something and be blameless because you heard it from someone else. > that identify as gender fluid or making up the alphabet soup of modern genders Maybe some of them are going too hard on the need to categorize everything, but they're still not choosing that underlying nature.
- triceratops 7y ago
  If you have deeply held faith in Religion A and you convert to Religion B purely to avoid discrimination, I don't count it as a real change, and the person themselves would probably not either. The only way to really change your religion is to have a heartfelt change in beliefs, and who has conscious control over that? Gender identity doesn't seem to be consciously changeable. Some people's gender may be different from their biological sex, but the identity itself is pretty deeply rooted. Familial and veteran status are also not changeable i.e. if you already have children or are a veteran, you can't go back and change that fact. Even though people have some degree of control over having a family in the first place or serving/not serving, because they have been used as a dimension of discrimination in the past, they've been lumped in as a protected characteristic. There's also nothing bad about having a family or serving/not serving - in contrast to discrimination over a criminal record (legal in many places AFAIK), which like familial & veteran status also can't be changed and which people also have some degree of control over.
  - flukus 7y ago
    > The only way to really change your religion is to have a heartfelt change in beliefs, and who has conscious control over that? Now consider how that applies to a white supremacist, the also have have a deeply held faith in their beliefs (as with most fringe groups), probably more so than most than most religious people. And their beliefs are often equally abhorrent. Why is it OK to discriminate against people that think the white race is superior but not to discriminate against people that think they're gods chosen people? What do we do when a religion thinks it's OK to discriminate against gay people? > Gender identity doesn't seem to be consciously changeable. Some people's gender may be different from their biological sex, but the identity itself is pretty deeply rooted. Some people switch based on mood, making it not an inherent characteristic: > Genderfluid people often express a desire to remain flexible about their gender identity rather than committing to a single definition.[20] They may fluctuate between differing gender expressions over their lifetime, or express multiple aspects of various gender markers at the same time.[20][21] They may at times identify as bigender - shifting between masculine and feminine; or as trigender - shifting between these and a third gender. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender And as a social construct it can change based on societal expectations and roles. > There's also nothing bad about having a family or serving/not serving - in contrast to discrimination over a criminal record (legal in many places AFAIK) On the military I disagree, there is something bad about being a willing participant in wars of aggression and I'd much rather be able to discriminate against them then I would a stoner that landed in jail. So instead of arguing about grey areas of what is an inherent trait and what is changeable along with how to handle conflicts between protected classes that themselves discriminate, let's make it illegal for companies to discriminate against individuals/organisations entirely?