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Question: do we know if police are using "find this face in a crowd" software or "log all faces and compare them to all people". The former is the same as was h

Question: do we know if police are using "find this face in a crowd" software or "log all faces and compare them to all people". The former is the same as was happening before only faster.

whateveracct 7y ago
Sometimes, "what was happening before but faster" alone is what can cause something to cross the line of legality (philosophically.)
- jedimastert 7y ago
  > Sometimes, "what was happening before but faster" alone is what can cause something to cross the line of legality (philosophically.) Not that I don't believe you, but I can't think of any examples off of the top of my head. Can you give me one?
  - nerdponx 7y ago
    It used to be expensive (in both time and money) to track people's movements. Now cell phone carriers (as well as Google, Apple, and a few other companies) can do it trivially.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - rhcom2 7y ago
    Automated license plate readers spring to mind. The police have been noting license plates forever, automate it and suddenly now you have a database that tracks everyone's movements.
  - curryst 7y ago
    One that comes to mind is the Supreme Court enforced ban on creating a firearms registry. Firearms dealers are required to retain sales records with serial numbers for some amount of time (I don't have the number handy, it's several years) so technically the data exists currently. However they have ruled that it would be illegal to centralize that data for easier access. Another is those automated speeding cameras. In several states they are unable to write tickets without a police officer present. My understanding is that this means the machine operates the same way and still writes tickets, the officer just has to be there as a "witness" and play phone games or whatever while the machine works. The end effect is the same, but the law requires an officer to be a witness to the crime in order to generate tickets.
    - enjo 7y ago
      Medical Marijuana states often have similar laws. A registry of people with medical access exists, but it becomes illegal to exfiltrate the data for any reason (the registry is often on one computer in a state house office somewhere).
    - snagglegaggle 7y ago
      W.r.t. the firearms registry, there does appear to be one. FFLs reported targeted and widespread harassment by the ATF as they came in and digitized purchase records onsite 2010ish to 2016ish. Some FFL holders had to threaten force to prevent the records from being removed from their premesis. So who know what other methods are used for parallel construction.
    - Animats 7y ago
      One that comes to mind is the Supreme Court enforced ban on creating a firearms registry. No, that's not the Supreme Court. That's the Firearms Owner Protection Act of 1986.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
      - curryst 7y ago
        I stand corrected, thanks!
  - grawprog 7y ago
    To be extremely literal about it. Everyone's slowly dying every day, but if you go and speed that up and kill somebody, it becomes really illegal.
  - torstenvl 7y ago
    Cell site location information was deemed a search based on the fact that it is "detailed, encyclopedic, and effortlessly compiled." The speed with which law enforcement can track you with CSLI, compared to canvassing witnesses, is the key factor.
  - munificent 7y ago
    Semi-automatic firearms versus fully automatic. It's legal to own a personal killing machine, as long as it can't kill above a certain rate.
  - pyrale 7y ago
    Asymetric crypto is all about this. The only difference between the key holder and a third party is a time factor. Another exemple is the rationale for EU privacy laws. It was fine to have your history in newspapers or judicial archives, as searching for them was prohibitive. But having it searchable through computers makes it trivial for would-be employers, neighbours, etc. to find out about you, transforming any small misdemeanour in a lifetime sentence.
vkou 7y ago
Police have historically misused the tools available to them (the police lineup). They have historically been very resistant to oversight of this misuse. When those tools become more powerful, so does the harm caused by their misuse. A gun is just a stronger slingshot, but you'd be an idiot to give one to an eight year old child who was slingshotting windows, dogs, and cats.
bsenftner 7y ago
The same software can operate in either "mode". Typically there is a gallery of faces, segmented into different categories such as "police", "location staff", "people we like" and "people we don't like" and where not identified as in one or more gallery groups the face record is "general public". Almost any location that cares to use FR will have groups for "staff", "good people" and "bad people", where the "good/bad" designation is not "good/evil" but more like "we care to please these people" and "these people have caused problems in the past". The use of a "general public" "virtual group" is for things like anonymous tracking of how people travel through a location, which is useful for emergency planning and demographics. So, in general, anytime FR is in use it will attempt to identify items in the view as faces or not faces, and when a face compare against the gallery, if a match is found, report that match along with any groups the face is a member. Also note "when a match is found" that can trigger review of multiple gallery faces for a human to select between or retain as an uncertain match containing multiple gallery hits. The entire process of "what to do when any matches are found" is specific to the purpose of the FR, often specific to a gallery group the match is a member. Not all users of FR use it for "security", some use FR for enhanced hospitality, such as luxury locations use FR to identify high net worth people waiting to be serviced, and public spaces are often interested in FR for emergency planning and demographic modeling throughout different times and seasons. Beyond the security applications, FR can be used in a similar manner as web page cookies, but for physical locations.
hevi_jos 7y ago
This is a fallacy. The fallacy of using Quality statements in order to negate Quantity. An earthquake of level 10.0 is just like an earthquake of level 4.0, only longer and bigger. A flooding is just like normal raining, only with more rain. In most situations a big change in quantity makes all the difference, like in this case. If police forces analyze 20000 people a year,mostly criminals in criminal scenes, it is completely different than analyzing millions, mostly normal people.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  "An explosion is just a chemical reaction, only fast".
noitsnot 7y ago
I know the government was, meaning I'm not sure if they still are now, without getting too specific. I'm not sure if that included the police, though.

Question: do we know if police are using "find this face in a crowd" software or "log all faces and compare them to all people". The former is the same as was happening before only faster.

whateveracct 7y ago

Sometimes, "what was happening before but faster" alone is what can cause something to cross the line of legality (philosophically.)

jedimastert 7y ago
> Sometimes, "what was happening before but faster" alone is what can cause something to cross the line of legality (philosophically.) Not that I don't believe you, but I can't think of any examples off of the top of my head. Can you give me one?
- nerdponx 7y ago
  It used to be expensive (in both time and money) to track people's movements. Now cell phone carriers (as well as Google, Apple, and a few other companies) can do it trivially.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rhcom2 7y ago
  Automated license plate readers spring to mind. The police have been noting license plates forever, automate it and suddenly now you have a database that tracks everyone's movements.
- curryst 7y ago
  One that comes to mind is the Supreme Court enforced ban on creating a firearms registry. Firearms dealers are required to retain sales records with serial numbers for some amount of time (I don't have the number handy, it's several years) so technically the data exists currently. However they have ruled that it would be illegal to centralize that data for easier access. Another is those automated speeding cameras. In several states they are unable to write tickets without a police officer present. My understanding is that this means the machine operates the same way and still writes tickets, the officer just has to be there as a "witness" and play phone games or whatever while the machine works. The end effect is the same, but the law requires an officer to be a witness to the crime in order to generate tickets.
  - enjo 7y ago
    Medical Marijuana states often have similar laws. A registry of people with medical access exists, but it becomes illegal to exfiltrate the data for any reason (the registry is often on one computer in a state house office somewhere).
  - snagglegaggle 7y ago
    W.r.t. the firearms registry, there does appear to be one. FFLs reported targeted and widespread harassment by the ATF as they came in and digitized purchase records onsite 2010ish to 2016ish. Some FFL holders had to threaten force to prevent the records from being removed from their premesis. So who know what other methods are used for parallel construction.
  - Animats 7y ago
    One that comes to mind is the Supreme Court enforced ban on creating a firearms registry. No, that's not the Supreme Court. That's the Firearms Owner Protection Act of 1986.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
    - curryst 7y ago
      I stand corrected, thanks!
- grawprog 7y ago
  To be extremely literal about it. Everyone's slowly dying every day, but if you go and speed that up and kill somebody, it becomes really illegal.
- torstenvl 7y ago
  Cell site location information was deemed a search based on the fact that it is "detailed, encyclopedic, and effortlessly compiled." The speed with which law enforcement can track you with CSLI, compared to canvassing witnesses, is the key factor.
- munificent 7y ago
  Semi-automatic firearms versus fully automatic. It's legal to own a personal killing machine, as long as it can't kill above a certain rate.
- pyrale 7y ago
  Asymetric crypto is all about this. The only difference between the key holder and a third party is a time factor. Another exemple is the rationale for EU privacy laws. It was fine to have your history in newspapers or judicial archives, as searching for them was prohibitive. But having it searchable through computers makes it trivial for would-be employers, neighbours, etc. to find out about you, transforming any small misdemeanour in a lifetime sentence.

vkou 7y ago

Police have historically misused the tools available to them (the police lineup). They have historically been very resistant to oversight of this misuse. When those tools become more powerful, so does the harm caused by their misuse. A gun is just a stronger slingshot, but you'd be an idiot to give one to an eight year old child who was slingshotting windows, dogs, and cats.

bsenftner 7y ago

The same software can operate in either "mode". Typically there is a gallery of faces, segmented into different categories such as "police", "location staff", "people we like" and "people we don't like" and where not identified as in one or more gallery groups the face record is "general public". Almost any location that cares to use FR will have groups for "staff", "good people" and "bad people", where the "good/bad" designation is not "good/evil" but more like "we care to please these people" and "these people have caused problems in the past". The use of a "general public" "virtual group" is for things like anonymous tracking of how people travel through a location, which is useful for emergency planning and demographics. So, in general, anytime FR is in use it will attempt to identify items in the view as faces or not faces, and when a face compare against the gallery, if a match is found, report that match along with any groups the face is a member. Also note "when a match is found" that can trigger review of multiple gallery faces for a human to select between or retain as an uncertain match containing multiple gallery hits. The entire process of "what to do when any matches are found" is specific to the purpose of the FR, often specific to a gallery group the match is a member. Not all users of FR use it for "security", some use FR for enhanced hospitality, such as luxury locations use FR to identify high net worth people waiting to be serviced, and public spaces are often interested in FR for emergency planning and demographic modeling throughout different times and seasons. Beyond the security applications, FR can be used in a similar manner as web page cookies, but for physical locations.

hevi_jos 7y ago

This is a fallacy. The fallacy of using Quality statements in order to negate Quantity. An earthquake of level 10.0 is just like an earthquake of level 4.0, only longer and bigger. A flooding is just like normal raining, only with more rain. In most situations a big change in quantity makes all the difference, like in this case. If police forces analyze 20000 people a year,mostly criminals in criminal scenes, it is completely different than analyzing millions, mostly normal people.

jacquesm 7y ago
"An explosion is just a chemical reaction, only fast".

noitsnot 7y ago

I know the government was, meaning I'm not sure if they still are now, without getting too specific. I'm not sure if that included the police, though.