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I'm an American expat in Switzerland working as an independent software developer and startup founder. I can agree with a lot of the points listed in the articl

I'm an American expat in Switzerland working as an independent software developer and startup founder. I can agree with a lot of the points listed in the article, but they apply universally to almost all jobs (not just to software developers). I would raise a few points it doesn't mention: - Negatively, it is much harder to find meetups close to you that apply to you. Unless you're based in Zürich (the tech hub of the region), expect any meetups to be irregular and if you don't go to the next one, it might be the last one. - Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month. It's hard to go wrong with that. - Positively, the outdoor culture in much of the country really helps you get out of your chair and outdoors. The natural beauty doesn't hurt. :-) Happy to answer any more questions if you have them—or I'm more than happy to connect if you're also in Switzerland!

mywittyname 7y ago
How was the process of obtaining a work visa / citizenship?
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  It took me about 10 minutes at the local city hall. However, my wife is Swiss, so I'm very much an exception. If you don't have a familial connection, you need to find a job, and the company will need to prove they couldn't find a local Swiss resident/citizen that could have done the same job, so it's a bit harder to get in than Germany or other areas of the EU. Edit: I'm on a multi-year residency visa. I'll need to renew once more before I'm eligible for citizenship (after ~5 years).
  - vinay427 7y ago
    No, they need to prove that they can't find a Swiss/EU/EEA citizen (not necessarily a resident, just an applicant) that could do the same job. EU/EEA citizens are on par with Swiss citizens in every sector except for possibly civil service, at least for now, though referendums repeatedly seem to pass that would limit this freedom for both sides.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  Make sure you are knowledgeable about raclette. https://www.thelocal.ch/20180604/brit-denied-swiss-citizenship-after-failing-raclette-question https://www.thelocal.ch/20180604/brit-denied-swiss-citizensh...
  - lukeqsee 7y ago
    I've heard similar stories, but all of the regulation surrounding citizenship is not so homogeneous between towns, cantons, etc. So some cantons might only require a basic understanding while others grill you like this. It'll be a few years before I discover how it is in St. Gallen. :)
    - vinay427 7y ago
      Based on the commune/canton residency restrictions in St. Gallen for naturalizing, I can't imagine they'd love to see people completing the process. :/
  - krion 7y ago
    in 20th century they called it fascism
- netsharc 7y ago
  It's probably easier applying to a company in the EU, if you google "EU blue card program", for IT jobs, if you have a university degree and a job offer from a company, you'll get a residency permit (what you're calling a work visa). If you really want to move to Switzerland, be a taxpayer for 7 years in Germany, learn German, stay out of trouble and unemployment, and you can apply to be a German citizen. After that, moving to Switzerland is easy: show the authorities your job contract with a Swiss company, they're obliged to give you a residency permit (at least that's the arrangement they have with the EU at the moment)
vasili111 7y ago
1. How easy/difficult to get Switzerland citizenship if you live and work there? 2. How popular is English language is in Switzerland IT companies?
- kimi 7y ago
  Citizenship is relatively hard: you have to be a resident for 12+ years to start the process. A lot of people never bother - a long term residency permit ("C") is almost as good, but you don't vote and do not have military duties. Everybody speaks English; I know a number of people in Zürich who never bothered to learn German, as there is a large expat community and everything is multi-lingual.
  - lukeqsee 7y ago
    > I know a number of people in Zürich who never bothered to learn German I think Zürich is just a typical large city exception (similar to Berlin or Amsterdam). I think German (or French or Italian) is pretty necessary outside of Zürich/Geneva.
  - CalChris 7y ago
    If you have children and want citizenship for them, one of the parents must be Swiss. As for language, I took an intensive French class at the University of Geneva when I worked there. At the end of the class everyone in it, students from all over the world, spoke better English. We studied French but socialized in English.
  - vinay427 7y ago
    It's 10+ years for citizenship as of a few years ago. Also, I doubt the military duties will apply to the vast majority of people that move there as adults and then start the process of residency and naturalization.
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  1. (See above answer as well.) It's definitely difficult if you don't have a familial connections. Once you get in, though, it's pretty easy to stay and if you stay for 10+ years, you can get citizenship fairly easily. 2. It is mixed. I've had local interviews in (high) German but they were comfortable enough to switch to English if needed. Most jobs list proficiency in English + German as a requirement.
wwayer 7y ago
What type of visa do you have and how did you qualify for it? Was it difficult to get?
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  Answered here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21258550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21258550. I'm very much an exception to the norm. I would have looked at Germany first if I were unmarried.
JanSt 7y ago
Are there 95-100% remote jobs?
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  From what I've seen, it's less common than the US but they do exist.
- tiagopc 7y ago
  I've been working in Switzerland for 6 months, from what I've seen it is very common to find jobs with 1 day a week working from home but very unusual to find 100% remote jobs
- bitL 7y ago
  Usually blockchain-based stuff around Zug.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jermeh 7y ago
Have you found there to be a significant language barrier when moving to Switzerland? I know Europeans generally know English, but is there an expectation that you speak German or another local language?
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  I spoke enough German to make the transition to Swiss German okay. It's definitely a barrier and I'm still working through it. Most people can and do speak English if they think their English is smoother than your German / Swiss German. Outside of major, cosmopolitan cities (pretty much Zürich and Geneva), I'd say there is an expectation to speak the local language. Anything official I've done has been in German.
- Ayesh 7y ago
  Not OP, but I have so e experience particularly in Zurich. English is widely spoken by a majority of the people you'll be working with, but some sort of basic German can go a very long way. Compared to other cities like Paris or Strasbourg (other tech-ish cities), Zurich is far more English friendly, perhaps only second to Amsterdam.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    It’s a bit harder in French Switzerland, particularly Lausanne, some of the people don’t speak English or simply don’t want to. Still not that bad, however. The police l, if you have to interact with them, might treat you more roughly if you don’t speak the local language.
- nickik 7y ago
  I'm Swiss but we have a lot of people from different places working here. Many Swiss people are totally fine with English, and since we speak Swiss german, nobody expect you speak it anyway. That said, in our case, working for Banks, you do still connect to the 'old school' Swiss buissness who are a little less English driven then the Tech sector. That has caused some issues for us, but not all that significant.
pierre 7y ago
> - Negatively, it is much harder to find meetups close to you that apply to you. Unless you're based in Zürich (the tech hub of the region), expect any meetups to be irregular and if you don't go to the next one, it might be the last one. In my experience there is a lot of meetup in Lausanne and Geneva. However it is a different kind of tech hub mostly focus on deep tech, where Zurich/zug focus mostly on Fintech/Blockchain.
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  Ah—that's quite possible. I'm close to St. Gallen, so either of those cities are 3-4 hours by train for me (so a bit out of the range I'd normally travel for a meetup).
victor106 7y ago
> Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month. It's hard to go wrong with that. I pay 79.99 USD a month for Verizon Fios 1 gbps in nyc. That is before a $200.00 credit. Fios is FTTH. That’s a good 20-25% discount to what you pay in Switzerland. Plus I heard from several colleagues and friends who are people of color that they faced more racism in Switzerland (and a few European countries) than in the US. I know this is subjective and everyone’s experience is different. But you can’t ignore the fact that the CEO’s of two of the largest tech companies in the US are Indians. I don’t know of any large European companies that are being run by people of color. Maybe they are but I just don’t know.
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  > That’s a good 20-25% discount to what you pay in Switzerland. I actually pay 60,- CHF, plus a bit extra for a static IP + IPv6. I was saying I have that option for four providers all under 100. :) > Plus I heard from several colleagues and friends who are people of color that they faced more racism in Switzerland I can't speak directly to this, since I am not a PoC. What I have observed is the racism that exists appears to be of a different type than is typical in the US. It is more an aversion to outsiders than against a particular class of people. But again, I can't really speak to it since I'm not in the position to be on the receiving end of it. (Everyone thinks I'm Swiss until I open my mouth.)
- eejjjj82 7y ago
  not to turn this into a 1-up session, but 100CHF is an overestimate. i pay 49.99/mo for 10Gbps symmetric https://fiber.salt.ch/en https://fiber.salt.ch/en
  - vinay427 7y ago
    Last I checked, Salt is much more shaky with speeds and some of the bandwidth may be shared. With the EWZ municipal fiber in Zurich (served by one of the private companies like the GP mentioned) I get the speeds I pay for all the time. I've heard worse things about Salt, but I won't complain about a better option so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
sixhobbits 7y ago
I'm in Zurich, moved recently from South Africa - also in the startup space, currently working remotely, also from home. Would love to grab a coffee sometime if you're keen - your website in your profile doesn't resolve - does the email work?
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  Just fixed up the domain, thanks for reminding me. :) Yes the email works: hello <at> lukeseelenbinder <dot> com. Let's definitely meet up! I'm in St. Gallen, so not far at all.
nscalf 7y ago
How was the process of moving from the US to Switzerland? I'm a senior engineer, and I'm open to moving there to work, but I don't have the slightest idea of how I would go about finding places to interview or find a job. How did you find yours? Are there recruiters to bring in out-of-country talent? I feel like that would be a massive hurdle, considering you would need a visa. Any advice on finding a job? Edit: I'm an idiot, that's a job site. Some of the question still stands, how was the process of finding a job out of the country and getting a visa?
- eejjjj82 7y ago
  I'm an American living and working in Zurich for Google. Frankly - without Google handling every part of the process for me it would have been extremely difficult to get the visa. The best route you have into a job here as an American (or other non-schengen area resident) is to find a company already doing business here, get hired, and then transfer here. But once here... it is very nice
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  I actually moved because of family (wife) vs because of a job, so I brought my job with me. The few interviews I've had have been through friends knowing friends, but there's a good number of job sites dedicated to Switzerland. Getting a visa as a third-country citizen (i.e., not EU or CH) is difficult and you need to find the right company that's willing to jump through the hoops for you. Definitely doable if your skillset is right, but it's going to be unique for each situation. A more viable option may be by using an EU country as a springboard (get EU residency, which, in my understanding, can improve your chances of getting a visa in CH).
dt3ft 7y ago
I'm based in Zurich, also happy to connect.
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  Let's! My email is in my profile.
thbr99 7y ago
Why an expat. Is it something with the work permit. How does one transition from expat to immigrant ?
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  Technically, yes. I use the term "expat" to denote that I'm not a Swiss citizen yet; the definition is pretty broad and can include immigrants: https://www.wordnik.com/words/expat https://www.wordnik.com/words/expat.
  - pergadad 7y ago
    All expats by definition are immigrants, not all immigrants are expats. Normally refers to high qualified high earning individuals while in most places most immigrants are low skilled low wage and only a small group would be reasonably called expats.
    - netsharc 7y ago
      If you google expat vs immigrant it's contentious.. https://www.thelocal.de/20140617/are-you-an-expat-or-immigrant-in-germany https://www.thelocal.de/20140617/are-you-an-expat-or-immigra...
kragen 7y ago
What are the ways to get a visa? You've said you married a Swiss woman, and that work visas are only available to non-EU people when companies couldn't find a Swiss (or EU) person to do the job. I suppose there's also some kind of "millionaire visa". Is that it? How hard are each of these categories of visa to get?

mywittyname 7y ago

How was the process of obtaining a work visa / citizenship?

lukeqsee 7y ago
It took me about 10 minutes at the local city hall. However, my wife is Swiss, so I'm very much an exception. If you don't have a familial connection, you need to find a job, and the company will need to prove they couldn't find a local Swiss resident/citizen that could have done the same job, so it's a bit harder to get in than Germany or other areas of the EU. Edit: I'm on a multi-year residency visa. I'll need to renew once more before I'm eligible for citizenship (after ~5 years).
- vinay427 7y ago
  No, they need to prove that they can't find a Swiss/EU/EEA citizen (not necessarily a resident, just an applicant) that could do the same job. EU/EEA citizens are on par with Swiss citizens in every sector except for possibly civil service, at least for now, though referendums repeatedly seem to pass that would limit this freedom for both sides.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Make sure you are knowledgeable about raclette. https://www.thelocal.ch/20180604/brit-denied-swiss-citizenship-after-failing-raclette-question https://www.thelocal.ch/20180604/brit-denied-swiss-citizensh...
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  I've heard similar stories, but all of the regulation surrounding citizenship is not so homogeneous between towns, cantons, etc. So some cantons might only require a basic understanding while others grill you like this. It'll be a few years before I discover how it is in St. Gallen. :)
  - vinay427 7y ago
    Based on the commune/canton residency restrictions in St. Gallen for naturalizing, I can't imagine they'd love to see people completing the process. :/
- krion 7y ago
  in 20th century they called it fascism
netsharc 7y ago
It's probably easier applying to a company in the EU, if you google "EU blue card program", for IT jobs, if you have a university degree and a job offer from a company, you'll get a residency permit (what you're calling a work visa). If you really want to move to Switzerland, be a taxpayer for 7 years in Germany, learn German, stay out of trouble and unemployment, and you can apply to be a German citizen. After that, moving to Switzerland is easy: show the authorities your job contract with a Swiss company, they're obliged to give you a residency permit (at least that's the arrangement they have with the EU at the moment)

vasili111 7y ago

1. How easy/difficult to get Switzerland citizenship if you live and work there? 2. How popular is English language is in Switzerland IT companies?

kimi 7y ago
Citizenship is relatively hard: you have to be a resident for 12+ years to start the process. A lot of people never bother - a long term residency permit ("C") is almost as good, but you don't vote and do not have military duties. Everybody speaks English; I know a number of people in Zürich who never bothered to learn German, as there is a large expat community and everything is multi-lingual.
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  > I know a number of people in Zürich who never bothered to learn German I think Zürich is just a typical large city exception (similar to Berlin or Amsterdam). I think German (or French or Italian) is pretty necessary outside of Zürich/Geneva.
- CalChris 7y ago
  If you have children and want citizenship for them, one of the parents must be Swiss. As for language, I took an intensive French class at the University of Geneva when I worked there. At the end of the class everyone in it, students from all over the world, spoke better English. We studied French but socialized in English.
- vinay427 7y ago
  It's 10+ years for citizenship as of a few years ago. Also, I doubt the military duties will apply to the vast majority of people that move there as adults and then start the process of residency and naturalization.
lukeqsee 7y ago
1. (See above answer as well.) It's definitely difficult if you don't have a familial connections. Once you get in, though, it's pretty easy to stay and if you stay for 10+ years, you can get citizenship fairly easily. 2. It is mixed. I've had local interviews in (high) German but they were comfortable enough to switch to English if needed. Most jobs list proficiency in English + German as a requirement.

wwayer 7y ago

What type of visa do you have and how did you qualify for it? Was it difficult to get?

lukeqsee 7y ago
Answered here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21258550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21258550. I'm very much an exception to the norm. I would have looked at Germany first if I were unmarried.

JanSt 7y ago

Are there 95-100% remote jobs?

lukeqsee 7y ago
From what I've seen, it's less common than the US but they do exist.
tiagopc 7y ago
I've been working in Switzerland for 6 months, from what I've seen it is very common to find jobs with 1 day a week working from home but very unusual to find 100% remote jobs
bitL 7y ago
Usually blockchain-based stuff around Zug.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jermeh 7y ago

Have you found there to be a significant language barrier when moving to Switzerland? I know Europeans generally know English, but is there an expectation that you speak German or another local language?

lukeqsee 7y ago
I spoke enough German to make the transition to Swiss German okay. It's definitely a barrier and I'm still working through it. Most people can and do speak English if they think their English is smoother than your German / Swiss German. Outside of major, cosmopolitan cities (pretty much Zürich and Geneva), I'd say there is an expectation to speak the local language. Anything official I've done has been in German.
Ayesh 7y ago
Not OP, but I have so e experience particularly in Zurich. English is widely spoken by a majority of the people you'll be working with, but some sort of basic German can go a very long way. Compared to other cities like Paris or Strasbourg (other tech-ish cities), Zurich is far more English friendly, perhaps only second to Amsterdam.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  It’s a bit harder in French Switzerland, particularly Lausanne, some of the people don’t speak English or simply don’t want to. Still not that bad, however. The police l, if you have to interact with them, might treat you more roughly if you don’t speak the local language.
nickik 7y ago
I'm Swiss but we have a lot of people from different places working here. Many Swiss people are totally fine with English, and since we speak Swiss german, nobody expect you speak it anyway. That said, in our case, working for Banks, you do still connect to the 'old school' Swiss buissness who are a little less English driven then the Tech sector. That has caused some issues for us, but not all that significant.

pierre 7y ago

> - Negatively, it is much harder to find meetups close to you that apply to you. Unless you're based in Zürich (the tech hub of the region), expect any meetups to be irregular and if you don't go to the next one, it might be the last one. In my experience there is a lot of meetup in Lausanne and Geneva. However it is a different kind of tech hub mostly focus on deep tech, where Zurich/zug focus mostly on Fintech/Blockchain.

lukeqsee 7y ago
Ah—that's quite possible. I'm close to St. Gallen, so either of those cities are 3-4 hours by train for me (so a bit out of the range I'd normally travel for a meetup).

victor106 7y ago

> Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month. It's hard to go wrong with that. I pay 79.99 USD a month for Verizon Fios 1 gbps in nyc. That is before a $200.00 credit. Fios is FTTH. That’s a good 20-25% discount to what you pay in Switzerland. Plus I heard from several colleagues and friends who are people of color that they faced more racism in Switzerland (and a few European countries) than in the US. I know this is subjective and everyone’s experience is different. But you can’t ignore the fact that the CEO’s of two of the largest tech companies in the US are Indians. I don’t know of any large European companies that are being run by people of color. Maybe they are but I just don’t know.

lukeqsee 7y ago
> That’s a good 20-25% discount to what you pay in Switzerland. I actually pay 60,- CHF, plus a bit extra for a static IP + IPv6. I was saying I have that option for four providers all under 100. :) > Plus I heard from several colleagues and friends who are people of color that they faced more racism in Switzerland I can't speak directly to this, since I am not a PoC. What I have observed is the racism that exists appears to be of a different type than is typical in the US. It is more an aversion to outsiders than against a particular class of people. But again, I can't really speak to it since I'm not in the position to be on the receiving end of it. (Everyone thinks I'm Swiss until I open my mouth.)
eejjjj82 7y ago
not to turn this into a 1-up session, but 100CHF is an overestimate. i pay 49.99/mo for 10Gbps symmetric https://fiber.salt.ch/en https://fiber.salt.ch/en
- vinay427 7y ago
  Last I checked, Salt is much more shaky with speeds and some of the bandwidth may be shared. With the EWZ municipal fiber in Zurich (served by one of the private companies like the GP mentioned) I get the speeds I pay for all the time. I've heard worse things about Salt, but I won't complain about a better option so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

sixhobbits 7y ago

I'm in Zurich, moved recently from South Africa - also in the startup space, currently working remotely, also from home. Would love to grab a coffee sometime if you're keen - your website in your profile doesn't resolve - does the email work?

lukeqsee 7y ago
Just fixed up the domain, thanks for reminding me. :) Yes the email works: hello <at> lukeseelenbinder <dot> com. Let's definitely meet up! I'm in St. Gallen, so not far at all.

nscalf 7y ago

How was the process of moving from the US to Switzerland? I'm a senior engineer, and I'm open to moving there to work, but I don't have the slightest idea of how I would go about finding places to interview or find a job. How did you find yours? Are there recruiters to bring in out-of-country talent? I feel like that would be a massive hurdle, considering you would need a visa. Any advice on finding a job? Edit: I'm an idiot, that's a job site. Some of the question still stands, how was the process of finding a job out of the country and getting a visa?

eejjjj82 7y ago
I'm an American living and working in Zurich for Google. Frankly - without Google handling every part of the process for me it would have been extremely difficult to get the visa. The best route you have into a job here as an American (or other non-schengen area resident) is to find a company already doing business here, get hired, and then transfer here. But once here... it is very nice
lukeqsee 7y ago
I actually moved because of family (wife) vs because of a job, so I brought my job with me. The few interviews I've had have been through friends knowing friends, but there's a good number of job sites dedicated to Switzerland. Getting a visa as a third-country citizen (i.e., not EU or CH) is difficult and you need to find the right company that's willing to jump through the hoops for you. Definitely doable if your skillset is right, but it's going to be unique for each situation. A more viable option may be by using an EU country as a springboard (get EU residency, which, in my understanding, can improve your chances of getting a visa in CH).

dt3ft 7y ago

I'm based in Zurich, also happy to connect.

lukeqsee 7y ago
Let's! My email is in my profile.

thbr99 7y ago

Why an expat. Is it something with the work permit. How does one transition from expat to immigrant ?

lukeqsee 7y ago
Technically, yes. I use the term "expat" to denote that I'm not a Swiss citizen yet; the definition is pretty broad and can include immigrants: https://www.wordnik.com/words/expat https://www.wordnik.com/words/expat.
- pergadad 7y ago
  All expats by definition are immigrants, not all immigrants are expats. Normally refers to high qualified high earning individuals while in most places most immigrants are low skilled low wage and only a small group would be reasonably called expats.
  - netsharc 7y ago
    If you google expat vs immigrant it's contentious.. https://www.thelocal.de/20140617/are-you-an-expat-or-immigrant-in-germany https://www.thelocal.de/20140617/are-you-an-expat-or-immigra...

kragen 7y ago

What are the ways to get a visa? You've said you married a Swiss woman, and that work visas are only available to non-EU people when companies couldn't find a Swiss (or EU) person to do the job. I suppose there's also some kind of "millionaire visa". Is that it? How hard are each of these categories of visa to get?