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Applications are still growing, the highest was Canada with 9.4% growth between 2018 and 2019: > Applications to U.S. business schools, including M.B.A. progra

Applications are still growing, the highest was Canada with 9.4% growth between 2018 and 2019: > Applications to U.S. business schools, including M.B.A. programs, fell sharply, while rising in Canada, Europe and China. just not in the US: > “There’s perception, which we absolutely pick up in our data, that the U.S. is not a welcoming environment,” said Sangeet Chowfla, GMAC’s chief executive.

close04 7y ago
After working with so many MBAs from prestigious schools I find it very hard to take this kind of title at face value, before seeing the person in action. Most had an MBA at 23 years old, basically jumping straight from university classes to MBA classes with nothing in between. At best the MBA did not bring anything. At worst it made some feel so entitled that they actually performed far worse. I fail to see the added value in this and most of them failed to show it. Given that this was happening in very large companies and involved studies in prestigious schools but nothing practical to show for it, in the end I can only assume many of these are just CV fluff.
- refurb 7y ago
  Most of the top ranked MBA programs require 3-5 years of work experience to get in. I think it’s Harvard that allows a very small subset to go directly from undergrad.
  - jeffreyrogers 7y ago
    I know people who've done a 2+2 program at Harvard, where they're admitted after undergrad but have to work for two years before being admitted. I guess it's possible to go straight to an MBA, but I don't see why it's desirable for most people. Most MBA students see it more as a credential and networking opportunity.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
      Doesn't this work like an assembly line now? I'm under the impression that a lot of schools hire students like this, and then there are employers like Bain and Cisco that are lined up to hire them for two years and then hand then back over to the progran.
- onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
  CV fluff is the important bit. I'm willing to bet most MBA students directly from undergrad with no work experience between are only getting an MBA either because: 1) they couldn't get a good high paying job right out of college. and/or 2) they read that an MBA is a good investment, and MBA students on average make $X more per year (without doing their MBA calculations and doing the time discount and opportunity cost to figure out it's propbably not worth it).
  - ameister14 7y ago
    Well, as to #2, if you get an MBA right out of college it's theoretically more likely to be worth it, simply because the multiplier effect has more years to work with
    - laurentl 7y ago
      Actually, it was the first exercise we did in my EMBA finance class :D Even with an EMBA, which happens later in a career, the NPV is quite positive.
      - onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
        Did you use a bell curve to figure out if it's worth it -- on average -- or did you use a madelbrot curve? Unless you go to an elite school, and the tuition is cheaper than anywhere I'm aware of, you're either 1) banking on being on the good side of the curve, 2) imagining there's a gaussian distribution to salaries (which there isn't), 3) enrolled somewhere very elite or incredibly cheap, or 4) vastly underestimating how much you could be earning presently -- which if you got enrolled in an elite school, you probably could've gotten an elite job...
        laurentl 7y ago
        Nothing that fancy, we just looked at the average case using a conservative estimate of salary increase after an MBA (something like + 30% 3 years after, so way below what the FT figures show for instance), and a conservative starting salary. Note that this was an executive MBA, so the base assumptions are a little different; in particular, attendees have a pretty good idea of what they're worth on the market and the effect of the EMBA is pretty well quantified: most EMBA participants change jobs/companies after the program, usually with a nice salary bump (although of course signing up for an EMBA in the first place is a good indication that you're willing to invest in your career, so at least part of that progress would have happened in some way or another even without the EMBA). In my personal case, the salary increase is close to 100% 5 years after enrollment - so the investment was well worth it. To answer the rest of your questions, the program was in the FT top 10 (now at #12 or so) and tuition was around 50k€. Yay for European business schools :D
- hos234 7y ago
  They come knowing certain things that most non biz grads have no clue about. Try getting technical people to do sales or PR or admin work. Of course some are unfit but try hiring 200 people by next quarter to expand sales or launch a new product without MBAs and watch the madness unfold.
  - close04 7y ago
    The question isn't "biz" or "technical", it's "biz" or "biz plus MBA". That last bit brings no value to a person straight out of university and there's a good chance that by the time they have a chance to use that knowledge it's already lost.
    - hos234 7y ago
      The article is not saying orgs have reduced hiring MBAs is it? That would be a sign of not having value. It's saying people are not applying because they have better opportunities and don't want to deal with immigration headaches.
Scoundreller 7y ago
Doing a masters (or undergrad) in Canada is the backdoor to immigration. Once you graduate, you get an open work permit equal to the length of your program and can then apply for Permanent Residency through “Express Entry” based on your advanced degree and local experience. The desperation for local experience can really suppress wages in some fields. And you don’t need to prove that you’re not taking a position or anything from a local candidate. Canadian universities and colleges have been making out like bandits and accrue excess value from the scheme.
- ethbro 7y ago
  > The desperation for local experience can really suppress wages in some fields. Isn't that good for the Canadian economy too? I'm sure it's not great for Canadians looking for a job, but access to high-quality talent at below-market rates seems like it would be win/win.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Sure, but the benefits of that aren’t well distributed. Those that are well-established in their wealth/careers get to double dip at no cost.
    - ethbro 7y ago
      Granted. But if a country did that, taxed top brackets more heavily, and then specifically allocated those revenues to upskilling, it wouldn't be a bad thing. The post-globalism issue is that no one redistributed those profits.
  - thawaway1837 7y ago
    Who has more immigrarion? The US or Canada? Who has a better economy? Who pays higher wages? More specifically, when comparing immigrants (and more relevant to this discussion, immigrants coming for higher ed) who has a greater income and who is a greater contributor? All those numbers are significantly in favor of the immigrants in the country.

close04 7y ago

After working with so many MBAs from prestigious schools I find it very hard to take this kind of title at face value, before seeing the person in action. Most had an MBA at 23 years old, basically jumping straight from university classes to MBA classes with nothing in between. At best the MBA did not bring anything. At worst it made some feel so entitled that they actually performed far worse. I fail to see the added value in this and most of them failed to show it. Given that this was happening in very large companies and involved studies in prestigious schools but nothing practical to show for it, in the end I can only assume many of these are just CV fluff.

refurb 7y ago
Most of the top ranked MBA programs require 3-5 years of work experience to get in. I think it’s Harvard that allows a very small subset to go directly from undergrad.
- jeffreyrogers 7y ago
  I know people who've done a 2+2 program at Harvard, where they're admitted after undergrad but have to work for two years before being admitted. I guess it's possible to go straight to an MBA, but I don't see why it's desirable for most people. Most MBA students see it more as a credential and networking opportunity.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
    Doesn't this work like an assembly line now? I'm under the impression that a lot of schools hire students like this, and then there are employers like Bain and Cisco that are lined up to hire them for two years and then hand then back over to the progran.
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
CV fluff is the important bit. I'm willing to bet most MBA students directly from undergrad with no work experience between are only getting an MBA either because: 1) they couldn't get a good high paying job right out of college. and/or 2) they read that an MBA is a good investment, and MBA students on average make $X more per year (without doing their MBA calculations and doing the time discount and opportunity cost to figure out it's propbably not worth it).
- ameister14 7y ago
  Well, as to #2, if you get an MBA right out of college it's theoretically more likely to be worth it, simply because the multiplier effect has more years to work with
  - laurentl 7y ago
    Actually, it was the first exercise we did in my EMBA finance class :D Even with an EMBA, which happens later in a career, the NPV is quite positive.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
      Did you use a bell curve to figure out if it's worth it -- on average -- or did you use a madelbrot curve? Unless you go to an elite school, and the tuition is cheaper than anywhere I'm aware of, you're either 1) banking on being on the good side of the curve, 2) imagining there's a gaussian distribution to salaries (which there isn't), 3) enrolled somewhere very elite or incredibly cheap, or 4) vastly underestimating how much you could be earning presently -- which if you got enrolled in an elite school, you probably could've gotten an elite job...
      - laurentl 7y ago
        Nothing that fancy, we just looked at the average case using a conservative estimate of salary increase after an MBA (something like + 30% 3 years after, so way below what the FT figures show for instance), and a conservative starting salary. Note that this was an executive MBA, so the base assumptions are a little different; in particular, attendees have a pretty good idea of what they're worth on the market and the effect of the EMBA is pretty well quantified: most EMBA participants change jobs/companies after the program, usually with a nice salary bump (although of course signing up for an EMBA in the first place is a good indication that you're willing to invest in your career, so at least part of that progress would have happened in some way or another even without the EMBA). In my personal case, the salary increase is close to 100% 5 years after enrollment - so the investment was well worth it. To answer the rest of your questions, the program was in the FT top 10 (now at #12 or so) and tuition was around 50k€. Yay for European business schools :D
hos234 7y ago
They come knowing certain things that most non biz grads have no clue about. Try getting technical people to do sales or PR or admin work. Of course some are unfit but try hiring 200 people by next quarter to expand sales or launch a new product without MBAs and watch the madness unfold.
- close04 7y ago
  The question isn't "biz" or "technical", it's "biz" or "biz plus MBA". That last bit brings no value to a person straight out of university and there's a good chance that by the time they have a chance to use that knowledge it's already lost.
  - hos234 7y ago
    The article is not saying orgs have reduced hiring MBAs is it? That would be a sign of not having value. It's saying people are not applying because they have better opportunities and don't want to deal with immigration headaches.

Scoundreller 7y ago

Doing a masters (or undergrad) in Canada is the backdoor to immigration. Once you graduate, you get an open work permit equal to the length of your program and can then apply for Permanent Residency through “Express Entry” based on your advanced degree and local experience. The desperation for local experience can really suppress wages in some fields. And you don’t need to prove that you’re not taking a position or anything from a local candidate. Canadian universities and colleges have been making out like bandits and accrue excess value from the scheme.

ethbro 7y ago
> The desperation for local experience can really suppress wages in some fields. Isn't that good for the Canadian economy too? I'm sure it's not great for Canadians looking for a job, but access to high-quality talent at below-market rates seems like it would be win/win.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Sure, but the benefits of that aren’t well distributed. Those that are well-established in their wealth/careers get to double dip at no cost.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    Granted. But if a country did that, taxed top brackets more heavily, and then specifically allocated those revenues to upskilling, it wouldn't be a bad thing. The post-globalism issue is that no one redistributed those profits.
- thawaway1837 7y ago
  Who has more immigrarion? The US or Canada? Who has a better economy? Who pays higher wages? More specifically, when comparing immigrants (and more relevant to this discussion, immigrants coming for higher ed) who has a greater income and who is a greater contributor? All those numbers are significantly in favor of the immigrants in the country.