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That's usually how smart people get depressed in the first place, by thinking too much. You realize that there's no point to anything you do. You will die. Huma

That's usually how smart people get depressed in the first place, by thinking too much. You realize that there's no point to anything you do. You will die. Humanity will die. The universe will die.

big_chungus 7y ago
This is why people have religion. Regardless of your personal views on the fact, it's a darn good way to avoid getting depressed by this sort of nihilism. You believe the universe will go on; you'll see your family one day and spend eternity in paradise. You may think it's BS, but have to admit it doesn't really matter for most people, it still does the job.
- NeoBasilisk 7y ago
  As someone who has been on both sides of that belief, I can agree that it generally has a stabilizing effect on people's mental state. However, once you lose that belief, it is very difficult to make yourself believe it again. And probably even harder for people that never believed in the first place.
- flatline 7y ago
  And yet millennia of philosophy have also attempted to address it. Epicurus comes first to mind from the materialist camp. Religion is not the only source of solace for existential dread, there are more rationalist approaches that can be viable. I think these have been sufficiently overshadowed by religion that they are only recently re-entering the public discourse.
- phkahler 7y ago
  Another way to deal with nihilism is to embrace it. Once you accept that nothing matters, you can stop beating yourself up for mistakes and failures. You can strip the urgency from your goals. It allows you to proceed with outcome independence. This needs to be paired with some form of motivation too, but I think that's more up to the individual.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    > strip the urgency from your goals Exactly. I personally know people who have become despondent and given up on life. Maybe a few people will take advantage of total freedom to learn and do, but if we're being honest here, most will watch net flicks and eat potato chips. It is still a net positive for _most_ people.
    - kharak 7y ago
      This is me, up to certain a point. I workout regularly, get slowly better at my job, participate in social activities. Just focus on enjoying life and I do. Still, it's all utterly meaningless. Funny thing is, I'm quit sure that the lack of meaning is holding me back. Holding me back in the sense that my satisfaction with life and success within it could be better with the feeling of meaning in life. There are people who proclaim that death gives everything meaning. Nonsense, death neither gives nor takes meaning, it's as meaningless as eternal life. I'm an atheist to every religion I've ever encountered and couldn't imagine the existence of a god providing meaning, either. (I actually perceive that idea, meaning by higher power, to be even more absurd). I have the believe though, that the question for meaning is a side effect of having a modern life. Did ancient tribes people think about meaning or did they simply hunt, socialize and view the world as connected in everything (the natural view of the world, as children have it) and never ever even thing about the concept of meaning of life? There are still somewhat "natural" living tribes out there, did someone ask them that question? I'm really curious about their reaction and answer. Really, to me it seems, that the answer to the question about the meaning of life is to never ask it in the first place.
      - phkahler 7y ago
        If there is an answer, it is that you get to define your own meaning.
        kharak 7y ago
        I read that often, also in this thread. But it isn't working for me. Meaning is not a rational concept, I guess it is a feeling. I say guess, because I've never experienced it. I only know, that the lack of meaning is a feeling. One day, I might stumble into a life where everything clicks together and the lack of meaning withers away. But that's not going to be a rational decision. "I conclude that this way of life is meaningful. 5 minutes later, I feel meaningful". Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?
- cortesoft 7y ago
  See, I never got how religion solves the problem of 'life not having a meaning'... let's suppose that there is a god, he created everything, and he tells me my purpose is x... well, so what? Just because God created everything, does that mean his choice for meaning is the same as mine? I mean, my parents created me, and if they told me their idea for my purpose, it wouldn't make it mine. Same with eternal life... how does something without meaning extended forever suddenly have meaning? I guess I never got the connection with an omniscient creator and a feeing of having purpose. I have plenty of purpose; experiencing the universe, taking it all in, seeing what happens next, loving deeply, sharing joy, experiencing pain. So much to life.
  - serpix 7y ago
    what if .. the story of there being a god separate from you is just a story. The nondual or advaita insight is that you are divine already, just pretending not to be. It goes deeper than that and should not be made another story but experienced yourself first. This was my own path to unshakeable faith, by own experience with the help of teachings and meditation as the beginning.
- bigred100 7y ago
  I’m not entirely sure if this characterization of religion makes sense.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    I'm not _entirely_ sure of most things, but am unsure how I am to reply with anything of substance if you don't give me a little more to engage with. _Why_ doesn't it make sense? I'm approaching it from a sociological point in this case, rather than a moral or theological one.
    - bigred100 7y ago
      Given my only exposure with any depth is Christianity (still superficial) I’m using this as my reference. If you read any of the really well-regarded spiritual authors (like the doctors of the church for example) you will read plenty about how your family (or you, of course) could easily be damned to hell. In fact, seeing relatives in hell is probably inevitable. Something even more discomforting to discuss is that, being that you’ve made it to heaven, your will is united to God’s and you would in fact marvel at God’s justice while you watch your relatives suffer in hell. Eg http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm It’s not clear to me that these are especially comforting things to think about, at least superficially.
- solomontribe 7y ago
  But aren't high IQ people predisposed to being atheist in the first place? I don't like working for adtech companies even when they pay me large sum of money for solving their technical problems. I am not motivated by money, I've been diagnosed with 150 IQ score when I was 19. I learned to speak very late and when I learned to write, I often wrote with both of my hands and swapping the hand out when I got tired of writing with one hand. My best time at school was finding a new benchmark every week and copying their handwriting so by the end of the weak, no one could figure out who exactly wrote that! Principal summoned me for swapping solution paper based on handwriting and I had to prove to him by writing in that handwriting that I didn't cheat. I was good at art but not good at music. I tried programming, I excelled at this stuff and then I moved on to CAD modeling which I found more statisfying but I was still getting inquiries based on my past performance at tech companies. I often feel I don't like using my intelligence. Yes but throw me in survival situation i am guaranteed to find solutions. The best thing I enjoyed working for any company was when I was under continuous threat of being fired if I didn't solve the technical challenges they were facing. Other than this, even the problems didn't give me any statisfaction, what did give me statisficaction was working under continuous threats + time constraints. Insults don't affect me, I don't assign any value to anything other say about me. I work for my own statisficaction. I had several girlfriends but things slowly faded and I ended up not seeing them anymore because I saw no point in maintaining relationships. My family is very religious yet I grew up to become athiest. I read various religious texts and arrived at the situation that it's designed to control people without use of sword
greggman2 7y ago
And? If there's no point then there's also no point in not enjoying yourself. Sorry, I'm not trying to be flippant. Just pointing out the fact that there is no point to anything is arguably not a very good reason for not making your life the best it can be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCRZZC-DH7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCRZZC-DH7M
- adventured 7y ago
  The parent's comment is entirely wrong. It's not thinking too much, in that specific instance, that is the source of the problem at all. The point (value or reason for) to the things they're claiming have no point, are provided by us, not the universe via magic assignment. That is the source of the mistake. Pretending the value is externally assigned or innate is the source of the premise that there's no point to the big thing (existence, life, work and so on). In the process of being disappointed in the lack of innate value, they're actually mentally assigning low value to the thing in question (which is psychologically the entire point: it's about debasing the value of the thing, it's most likely a revealing indicator about the present state of mind). For example: smart person thinks too much, they realize there's no point to life because we're going to die (or similar setup). The problem with that is, the point of life is decided by the smart person. They're in fact deciding to assign life less or little value in the act of saying there's no point, in that action they are actively determining the point: they're deciding there isn't much of one. They made a choice (with it being understood of course that a person may be in a mental place where for any number of reasons they can't clearly recognize a positive value to existence). The old question: what is the point of life? Does in fact have a very obvious and very simple answer: you decide (which simultaneously does not guarantee good results, even if you decide what it means to you or what the point of your life is to be).
  - lanstin 7y ago
    I agree, bearing in mind that to decide is a bit more substantial than just saying it or thinking it - it's an interaction between your thoughts and your actions and everything. I'd say it more as you create your meaning - it might involve things outside of yourself or it might be more individualistic, but it's not arbitrary, and you can have incorrect beliefs about the meaning you are deciding on/creating.
bradlys 7y ago
That's pretty subjective. I think there's no point to anything but I'm not upset about it. If anything - it gives me more of a purpose. What can I do before I'm dead and basically don't exist? It's not like any fucking videos games I play have any point. What's the point? Oh - I win and finish the game. Greaaat. Oh I beat someone online - woooow. What's the real point of that in the end? Nothing - it's all hedonism. I don't think you get depressed by thinking too much - you probably get depressed because you don't have what you want to begin with. You then just think about why you're in your unpleasant position, realize you're too crap to fix it, won't admit fault and change, and so then rationalize that inherently the universe is unfair and there's no point to anything anyway (just to make yourself feel better about how you're doing poorly). It's not that you're a piece of shit - it's the universes fault! I was made this way and there's no point to anything so I can still be a piece of crap human being! I'm too smart to be with the common man! They don't understand my deep intellect!
otakucode 7y ago
If you were immortal, would that confer some kind of meaning on your actions? How do you define meaning, and does it make any sense? Philosophical issues like these can have, I believe, substantial effects on a persons mental health. It's an area of thinking that we view in a very dysfunctional way in our society, generally discouraging even exploration of the topics as 'meaningless' (which is a bit ironic since those ideas are how one determines meaning). And if you do wish to investigate the ideas, you're mostly on your own. I personally credit my study of philosophy with a great deal of my general contentment with life, and feel it gave me the tools I needed to address most of the concerns I always wrestled with. Not even any specific philosopher or school of philosophy. Just the process of being introduced to so many radically different viewpoints on life, along with the strong foundation in argumentation and reason, itself seems to have aided my greatly. If the universe will die, and that establishes that anything which occurs within it has no meaning, perhaps meaning becomes entirely worthless as a concept. It distinguishes nothing. It becomes identical with mere existence.
kortilla 7y ago
> You realize that there's no point to anything you do. You will die. Humanity will die. The universe will die Sorry for the bad news, but even pretty stupid people can figure this outcome out.
notduncansmith 7y ago
I especially appreciated the following articles when I was in the throes of full-blown nihilism: - https://meltingasphalt.com/a-nihilists-guide-to-meaning/ https://meltingasphalt.com/a-nihilists-guide-to-meaning/ - https://meaningness.com/preview-eternalism-and-nihilism https://meaningness.com/preview-eternalism-and-nihilism - https://meaningness.com/wrong-about-nihilism https://meaningness.com/wrong-about-nihilism - http://cook-greuter.com/9%20levels%20of%20increasing%20embrace%20update%201%2007.pdf http://cook-greuter.com/9%20levels%20of%20increasing%20embra...
- jondwillis 7y ago
  Thanks for these. Needed this right now.
felipeccastro 7y ago
I think this is where intelligence gets you in trouble. You say this as if it was the whole story, and you trust your own beliefs too much to let them go. High intelligence may not be as harmful if you use it as a tool where appropriate, and don’t use where it falls short.
mnky9800n 7y ago
Life can be meaningless and rewarding. Why does life need meaning in order to pursue life?
FillardMillmore 7y ago
I agree with the first sentiment. But I've always been of the mind that, because life is terminal, our actions and behaviors have meaning. If life never ended (at least naturally), what would be the drive to do anything, when it could simply be postponed (without any real consequence) til tomorrow?
toasterlovin 7y ago
FWIW, each living being is connected in an unbroken chain to the original reproducing life form that existed roughly 3.5 billion years ago. Which means that each of us is related, however distantly, to every other living organism on this planet and that we're all playing a part in a grand, cosmic process that has been going on for an unfathomable amount of time. Thinking about that is one helluva cure for my nihilism. Might be for you, too.
johnchristopher 7y ago
I don't think most depressions are born from contemplating the void, though. Many people have realised things will die but aren't depressed as a consequence. It's not about "I an so intelligent that being depressed is the only state of being I can be in"
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

That's usually how smart people get depressed in the first place, by thinking too much. You realize that there's no point to anything you do. You will die. Humanity will die. The universe will die.

big_chungus 7y ago

This is why people have religion. Regardless of your personal views on the fact, it's a darn good way to avoid getting depressed by this sort of nihilism. You believe the universe will go on; you'll see your family one day and spend eternity in paradise. You may think it's BS, but have to admit it doesn't really matter for most people, it still does the job.

NeoBasilisk 7y ago
As someone who has been on both sides of that belief, I can agree that it generally has a stabilizing effect on people's mental state. However, once you lose that belief, it is very difficult to make yourself believe it again. And probably even harder for people that never believed in the first place.
flatline 7y ago
And yet millennia of philosophy have also attempted to address it. Epicurus comes first to mind from the materialist camp. Religion is not the only source of solace for existential dread, there are more rationalist approaches that can be viable. I think these have been sufficiently overshadowed by religion that they are only recently re-entering the public discourse.
phkahler 7y ago
Another way to deal with nihilism is to embrace it. Once you accept that nothing matters, you can stop beating yourself up for mistakes and failures. You can strip the urgency from your goals. It allows you to proceed with outcome independence. This needs to be paired with some form of motivation too, but I think that's more up to the individual.
- big_chungus 7y ago
  > strip the urgency from your goals Exactly. I personally know people who have become despondent and given up on life. Maybe a few people will take advantage of total freedom to learn and do, but if we're being honest here, most will watch net flicks and eat potato chips. It is still a net positive for _most_ people.
  - kharak 7y ago
    This is me, up to certain a point. I workout regularly, get slowly better at my job, participate in social activities. Just focus on enjoying life and I do. Still, it's all utterly meaningless. Funny thing is, I'm quit sure that the lack of meaning is holding me back. Holding me back in the sense that my satisfaction with life and success within it could be better with the feeling of meaning in life. There are people who proclaim that death gives everything meaning. Nonsense, death neither gives nor takes meaning, it's as meaningless as eternal life. I'm an atheist to every religion I've ever encountered and couldn't imagine the existence of a god providing meaning, either. (I actually perceive that idea, meaning by higher power, to be even more absurd). I have the believe though, that the question for meaning is a side effect of having a modern life. Did ancient tribes people think about meaning or did they simply hunt, socialize and view the world as connected in everything (the natural view of the world, as children have it) and never ever even thing about the concept of meaning of life? There are still somewhat "natural" living tribes out there, did someone ask them that question? I'm really curious about their reaction and answer. Really, to me it seems, that the answer to the question about the meaning of life is to never ask it in the first place.
    - phkahler 7y ago
      If there is an answer, it is that you get to define your own meaning.
      - kharak 7y ago
        I read that often, also in this thread. But it isn't working for me. Meaning is not a rational concept, I guess it is a feeling. I say guess, because I've never experienced it. I only know, that the lack of meaning is a feeling. One day, I might stumble into a life where everything clicks together and the lack of meaning withers away. But that's not going to be a rational decision. "I conclude that this way of life is meaningful. 5 minutes later, I feel meaningful". Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?
cortesoft 7y ago
See, I never got how religion solves the problem of 'life not having a meaning'... let's suppose that there is a god, he created everything, and he tells me my purpose is x... well, so what? Just because God created everything, does that mean his choice for meaning is the same as mine? I mean, my parents created me, and if they told me their idea for my purpose, it wouldn't make it mine. Same with eternal life... how does something without meaning extended forever suddenly have meaning? I guess I never got the connection with an omniscient creator and a feeing of having purpose. I have plenty of purpose; experiencing the universe, taking it all in, seeing what happens next, loving deeply, sharing joy, experiencing pain. So much to life.
- serpix 7y ago
  what if .. the story of there being a god separate from you is just a story. The nondual or advaita insight is that you are divine already, just pretending not to be. It goes deeper than that and should not be made another story but experienced yourself first. This was my own path to unshakeable faith, by own experience with the help of teachings and meditation as the beginning.
bigred100 7y ago
I’m not entirely sure if this characterization of religion makes sense.
- big_chungus 7y ago
  I'm not _entirely_ sure of most things, but am unsure how I am to reply with anything of substance if you don't give me a little more to engage with. _Why_ doesn't it make sense? I'm approaching it from a sociological point in this case, rather than a moral or theological one.
  - bigred100 7y ago
    Given my only exposure with any depth is Christianity (still superficial) I’m using this as my reference. If you read any of the really well-regarded spiritual authors (like the doctors of the church for example) you will read plenty about how your family (or you, of course) could easily be damned to hell. In fact, seeing relatives in hell is probably inevitable. Something even more discomforting to discuss is that, being that you’ve made it to heaven, your will is united to God’s and you would in fact marvel at God’s justice while you watch your relatives suffer in hell. Eg http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm It’s not clear to me that these are especially comforting things to think about, at least superficially.
solomontribe 7y ago
But aren't high IQ people predisposed to being atheist in the first place? I don't like working for adtech companies even when they pay me large sum of money for solving their technical problems. I am not motivated by money, I've been diagnosed with 150 IQ score when I was 19. I learned to speak very late and when I learned to write, I often wrote with both of my hands and swapping the hand out when I got tired of writing with one hand. My best time at school was finding a new benchmark every week and copying their handwriting so by the end of the weak, no one could figure out who exactly wrote that! Principal summoned me for swapping solution paper based on handwriting and I had to prove to him by writing in that handwriting that I didn't cheat. I was good at art but not good at music. I tried programming, I excelled at this stuff and then I moved on to CAD modeling which I found more statisfying but I was still getting inquiries based on my past performance at tech companies. I often feel I don't like using my intelligence. Yes but throw me in survival situation i am guaranteed to find solutions. The best thing I enjoyed working for any company was when I was under continuous threat of being fired if I didn't solve the technical challenges they were facing. Other than this, even the problems didn't give me any statisfaction, what did give me statisficaction was working under continuous threats + time constraints. Insults don't affect me, I don't assign any value to anything other say about me. I work for my own statisficaction. I had several girlfriends but things slowly faded and I ended up not seeing them anymore because I saw no point in maintaining relationships. My family is very religious yet I grew up to become athiest. I read various religious texts and arrived at the situation that it's designed to control people without use of sword

greggman2 7y ago

And? If there's no point then there's also no point in not enjoying yourself. Sorry, I'm not trying to be flippant. Just pointing out the fact that there is no point to anything is arguably not a very good reason for not making your life the best it can be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCRZZC-DH7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCRZZC-DH7M

adventured 7y ago
The parent's comment is entirely wrong. It's not thinking too much, in that specific instance, that is the source of the problem at all. The point (value or reason for) to the things they're claiming have no point, are provided by us, not the universe via magic assignment. That is the source of the mistake. Pretending the value is externally assigned or innate is the source of the premise that there's no point to the big thing (existence, life, work and so on). In the process of being disappointed in the lack of innate value, they're actually mentally assigning low value to the thing in question (which is psychologically the entire point: it's about debasing the value of the thing, it's most likely a revealing indicator about the present state of mind). For example: smart person thinks too much, they realize there's no point to life because we're going to die (or similar setup). The problem with that is, the point of life is decided by the smart person. They're in fact deciding to assign life less or little value in the act of saying there's no point, in that action they are actively determining the point: they're deciding there isn't much of one. They made a choice (with it being understood of course that a person may be in a mental place where for any number of reasons they can't clearly recognize a positive value to existence). The old question: what is the point of life? Does in fact have a very obvious and very simple answer: you decide (which simultaneously does not guarantee good results, even if you decide what it means to you or what the point of your life is to be).
- lanstin 7y ago
  I agree, bearing in mind that to decide is a bit more substantial than just saying it or thinking it - it's an interaction between your thoughts and your actions and everything. I'd say it more as you create your meaning - it might involve things outside of yourself or it might be more individualistic, but it's not arbitrary, and you can have incorrect beliefs about the meaning you are deciding on/creating.

bradlys 7y ago

That's pretty subjective. I think there's no point to anything but I'm not upset about it. If anything - it gives me more of a purpose. What can I do before I'm dead and basically don't exist? It's not like any fucking videos games I play have any point. What's the point? Oh - I win and finish the game. Greaaat. Oh I beat someone online - woooow. What's the real point of that in the end? Nothing - it's all hedonism. I don't think you get depressed by thinking too much - you probably get depressed because you don't have what you want to begin with. You then just think about why you're in your unpleasant position, realize you're too crap to fix it, won't admit fault and change, and so then rationalize that inherently the universe is unfair and there's no point to anything anyway (just to make yourself feel better about how you're doing poorly). It's not that you're a piece of shit - it's the universes fault! I was made this way and there's no point to anything so I can still be a piece of crap human being! I'm too smart to be with the common man! They don't understand my deep intellect!

otakucode 7y ago

If you were immortal, would that confer some kind of meaning on your actions? How do you define meaning, and does it make any sense? Philosophical issues like these can have, I believe, substantial effects on a persons mental health. It's an area of thinking that we view in a very dysfunctional way in our society, generally discouraging even exploration of the topics as 'meaningless' (which is a bit ironic since those ideas are how one determines meaning). And if you do wish to investigate the ideas, you're mostly on your own. I personally credit my study of philosophy with a great deal of my general contentment with life, and feel it gave me the tools I needed to address most of the concerns I always wrestled with. Not even any specific philosopher or school of philosophy. Just the process of being introduced to so many radically different viewpoints on life, along with the strong foundation in argumentation and reason, itself seems to have aided my greatly. If the universe will die, and that establishes that anything which occurs within it has no meaning, perhaps meaning becomes entirely worthless as a concept. It distinguishes nothing. It becomes identical with mere existence.

kortilla 7y ago

> You realize that there's no point to anything you do. You will die. Humanity will die. The universe will die Sorry for the bad news, but even pretty stupid people can figure this outcome out.

notduncansmith 7y ago

I especially appreciated the following articles when I was in the throes of full-blown nihilism: - https://meltingasphalt.com/a-nihilists-guide-to-meaning/ https://meltingasphalt.com/a-nihilists-guide-to-meaning/ - https://meaningness.com/preview-eternalism-and-nihilism https://meaningness.com/preview-eternalism-and-nihilism - https://meaningness.com/wrong-about-nihilism https://meaningness.com/wrong-about-nihilism - http://cook-greuter.com/9%20levels%20of%20increasing%20embrace%20update%201%2007.pdf http://cook-greuter.com/9%20levels%20of%20increasing%20embra...

jondwillis 7y ago
Thanks for these. Needed this right now.

felipeccastro 7y ago

I think this is where intelligence gets you in trouble. You say this as if it was the whole story, and you trust your own beliefs too much to let them go. High intelligence may not be as harmful if you use it as a tool where appropriate, and don’t use where it falls short.

mnky9800n 7y ago

Life can be meaningless and rewarding. Why does life need meaning in order to pursue life?

FillardMillmore 7y ago

I agree with the first sentiment. But I've always been of the mind that, because life is terminal, our actions and behaviors have meaning. If life never ended (at least naturally), what would be the drive to do anything, when it could simply be postponed (without any real consequence) til tomorrow?

toasterlovin 7y ago

FWIW, each living being is connected in an unbroken chain to the original reproducing life form that existed roughly 3.5 billion years ago. Which means that each of us is related, however distantly, to every other living organism on this planet and that we're all playing a part in a grand, cosmic process that has been going on for an unfathomable amount of time. Thinking about that is one helluva cure for my nihilism. Might be for you, too.

johnchristopher 7y ago

I don't think most depressions are born from contemplating the void, though. Many people have realised things will die but aren't depressed as a consequence. It's not about "I an so intelligent that being depressed is the only state of being I can be in"

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]