5 ms·

By "different principles", you presumably mean totally in the service of an autocratic, hegemonistic nation bent on the brutal oppression its own citizens and i

By "different principles", you presumably mean totally in the service of an autocratic, hegemonistic nation bent on the brutal oppression its own citizens and its rise to become an unchallengeable global power able to curtail the social, political and human rights of anybody, anywhere on Earth, who it deems an enemy?

SkyMarshal 7y ago
>... curtail the social, political and human rights of anybody, anywhere on Earth. FTFY. CCP’s objective here isn’t limited to enemies only.
DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
These sorts of comments are what make most online discussions about China seem so out of touch. If I told you that most people in China generally support the government and don't feel oppressed by it, how would that affect your worldview? Most people in China are primarily concerned with improving their standard of living. For hundreds of millions of people, that standard has improved more than you can probably imagine in the last 30 or so years. That's what they care about. Sure, they get upset when they hear about governmental corruption, or when wages aren't paid, and young people even care about internet censorship (though they all have VPNs). But if you were to go to them and propose overthrowing the government, most people would be horrified. They don't want chaos. They think that would put the enormous gains in social welfare they've achieved at risk. They want a competent government that delivers economic growth, and maybe some day in the future slowly - gradually - opens up political life.
- khuey 7y ago
  For fairly obvious reasons, "look the other way at the government's indiscretions in exchange for raising per-capita GDP to ~10k USD" isn't an appealing bargain for anyone in the developed world.
  - nopzor 7y ago
    it is an appealing bargain, sadly, if you replace 10k with a more reasonable number
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    We're not talking about the developed world. We're talking about a country whose GDP/capita was $300 just 30 years ago. For citizens of that country, increasing GDP/capita to $10k (a factor of 30) and looking the other way on various political issues is an appealing bargain. It doesn't take that much imagination to empathize with that view, which in my experience is shared by many (I'd say most) Chinese people. It continually amazes me how little effort people make in Western online discussions to put themselves in the shoes of someone who's seen their country go from utter poverty to relative wealth in one generation. That person might want to gain more political freedoms eventually, but they mainly don't want to destroy everything by plunging the country into chaos. Keep in mind that the catastrophic experience of the Cultural Revolution soured many Chinese people to politics, and convinced them that stability and steady improvement of living standards are the most important things. Many people who remember those times are allergic to any sort of fanaticism. Also keep in mind that although many things are restricted in China, the country has opened up a huge amount. In contrast to how things were not so long ago, Chinese people are now able to travel around the world, and largely live their lives without experiencing much government interference. The limits on political activism are clear, but most people just focus on improving their own situation and enjoying the modest luxuries they can now finally afford.
    - yupolerist 7y ago
      In a way, it’s a type of “first world privilege.” It’s often inconceivable for them to understand because their life experiences are just so different. Ask anyone from a poor nation about China, and while they may dislike the government, they also talk with admiration at how many people were lifted out of poverty.
  - aclsid 7y ago
    that seemed to worked well for Saudi Arabia, a country which has far more human right abuses and you never see the kind of propaganda we are seeing against the Chinese.
- ajxs 7y ago
  Why should it be the least bit difficult to imagine that the average Chinese citizen is not remarkably concerned about their government's curtailment of civil liberties? Cultural differences between China and the Western world are not insignificant. The average Chinese citizenry might not feel particularly oppressed, or be receptive to western views of authoritarianism. I've made the acquaintance of many Chinese nationals throughout my professional and academic life, and in my experience their views on such topics as authoritarianism, the role of the individual in society, the significance of individuality, egalitarianism, civil disobedience and civil liberties ( among other things ) tend to differ widely from their western counterparts. Although I'm aware it's dangerous to make assumptions, I do presume that there is some bias in my observations here. The Chinese nationals I am exposed to might be more likely to hold ( or at very least be exposed to and familiar with ) cosmopolitain, westernised views than their countrymen due to having had encountered them living in the western world. I don't doubt that there are a very large number of people in the Chinese diaspora with widely divergent and pro-Western views, but in my experience they have been a small minority.
aclsid 7y ago
Stop trolling, seriously. Accept the fact those guys live in a different society than yours. The way they are dealing with radical islam is not very different to what is taking place in Guantanamo and with the kind of comments Trump makes about the only Muslim representative in Congress. Why would you think that being an American citizen entitles you to some greater human rights protection than other human beings, including the poor souls trying to cross the border for a better life. “Everybody has a weakness, and everybody has a strength! Let us not mar our lives just because of our differences! There shall surely be some differences; let us get understanding! When you think that somebody is so different because of certain reasons, mind such reasons, for sometimes, your own reasons can make you feel you are different, positively or negatively!” ― Ernest Agyemang Yeboah

SkyMarshal 7y ago

>... curtail the social, political and human rights of anybody, anywhere on Earth. FTFY. CCP’s objective here isn’t limited to enemies only.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

These sorts of comments are what make most online discussions about China seem so out of touch. If I told you that most people in China generally support the government and don't feel oppressed by it, how would that affect your worldview? Most people in China are primarily concerned with improving their standard of living. For hundreds of millions of people, that standard has improved more than you can probably imagine in the last 30 or so years. That's what they care about. Sure, they get upset when they hear about governmental corruption, or when wages aren't paid, and young people even care about internet censorship (though they all have VPNs). But if you were to go to them and propose overthrowing the government, most people would be horrified. They don't want chaos. They think that would put the enormous gains in social welfare they've achieved at risk. They want a competent government that delivers economic growth, and maybe some day in the future slowly - gradually - opens up political life.

khuey 7y ago
For fairly obvious reasons, "look the other way at the government's indiscretions in exchange for raising per-capita GDP to ~10k USD" isn't an appealing bargain for anyone in the developed world.
- nopzor 7y ago
  it is an appealing bargain, sadly, if you replace 10k with a more reasonable number
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  We're not talking about the developed world. We're talking about a country whose GDP/capita was $300 just 30 years ago. For citizens of that country, increasing GDP/capita to $10k (a factor of 30) and looking the other way on various political issues is an appealing bargain. It doesn't take that much imagination to empathize with that view, which in my experience is shared by many (I'd say most) Chinese people. It continually amazes me how little effort people make in Western online discussions to put themselves in the shoes of someone who's seen their country go from utter poverty to relative wealth in one generation. That person might want to gain more political freedoms eventually, but they mainly don't want to destroy everything by plunging the country into chaos. Keep in mind that the catastrophic experience of the Cultural Revolution soured many Chinese people to politics, and convinced them that stability and steady improvement of living standards are the most important things. Many people who remember those times are allergic to any sort of fanaticism. Also keep in mind that although many things are restricted in China, the country has opened up a huge amount. In contrast to how things were not so long ago, Chinese people are now able to travel around the world, and largely live their lives without experiencing much government interference. The limits on political activism are clear, but most people just focus on improving their own situation and enjoying the modest luxuries they can now finally afford.
  - yupolerist 7y ago
    In a way, it’s a type of “first world privilege.” It’s often inconceivable for them to understand because their life experiences are just so different. Ask anyone from a poor nation about China, and while they may dislike the government, they also talk with admiration at how many people were lifted out of poverty.
- aclsid 7y ago
  that seemed to worked well for Saudi Arabia, a country which has far more human right abuses and you never see the kind of propaganda we are seeing against the Chinese.
ajxs 7y ago
Why should it be the least bit difficult to imagine that the average Chinese citizen is not remarkably concerned about their government's curtailment of civil liberties? Cultural differences between China and the Western world are not insignificant. The average Chinese citizenry might not feel particularly oppressed, or be receptive to western views of authoritarianism. I've made the acquaintance of many Chinese nationals throughout my professional and academic life, and in my experience their views on such topics as authoritarianism, the role of the individual in society, the significance of individuality, egalitarianism, civil disobedience and civil liberties ( among other things ) tend to differ widely from their western counterparts. Although I'm aware it's dangerous to make assumptions, I do presume that there is some bias in my observations here. The Chinese nationals I am exposed to might be more likely to hold ( or at very least be exposed to and familiar with ) cosmopolitain, westernised views than their countrymen due to having had encountered them living in the western world. I don't doubt that there are a very large number of people in the Chinese diaspora with widely divergent and pro-Western views, but in my experience they have been a small minority.

aclsid 7y ago

Stop trolling, seriously. Accept the fact those guys live in a different society than yours. The way they are dealing with radical islam is not very different to what is taking place in Guantanamo and with the kind of comments Trump makes about the only Muslim representative in Congress. Why would you think that being an American citizen entitles you to some greater human rights protection than other human beings, including the poor souls trying to cross the border for a better life. “Everybody has a weakness, and everybody has a strength! Let us not mar our lives just because of our differences! There shall surely be some differences; let us get understanding! When you think that somebody is so different because of certain reasons, mind such reasons, for sometimes, your own reasons can make you feel you are different, positively or negatively!” ― Ernest Agyemang Yeboah