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The simplest way to do this is to not get married. Unless one party is truly in it for the money, there is very little advantage to it other than the social acc

The simplest way to do this is to not get married. Unless one party is truly in it for the money, there is very little advantage to it other than the social acceptance that comes from being married which is vanishing anyway. Legal marriage is a lifetime obligation where the terms aren't decided until after you sign. It's anachronistic and ridiculous. You wouldn't sign a job contract where if you got fired or quit you would face unspecified financial and personal penalties, but for some reason everyone wants to do that despite a 50% divorce rate. Insanity.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago
Legal marriage is a partnership. Marriage has other connotations from a social and religious sense. But business is business. You can’t afford to have a spouse who knows nothing about the business end up taking over the reins and making decisions that affect the business.
- unilynx 7y ago
  You can split ownership and control. You should have arrangements in advance in the worst case (*), especially if your business employs others (where the worst case is probably being in an 'alive but not being able to make decisions' state, which can freeze all decision power and financial control)
maxaf 7y ago
> Unless one party is truly in it for the money, there is very little advantage to it other than the social acceptance that comes from being married which is vanishing anyway. There are other tangible advantages that you’re overlooking. Immigration and medical proxy are two that come to mind. I also find it convenient that my wife cannot be compelled to testify against me, or I against her.
- arcticfox 7y ago
  It's a fascinating choice of words that you find it "convenient" that your spouse can't be forced to testify against you. That benefit has literally never crossed my mind, much less been convenient...
navigatesol 7y ago
You're responsible to your partner, regarding acquired assets, whether you are legally married or common law.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  Most states do not recognize common law marriage. And you can play it safe by regularly declaring you are not married in front of witnesses as a couple.
magicalhippo 7y ago
Here in Norway there are some significant legal benefits from being married. Things like special beneficial tax rules and inheritance.
ImprovedSilence 7y ago
Unless you want to have (or end up having) kids. That’s a whole different ballgame of long term shared responsibility, financially or otherwise, and it absolutely makes sense to have a legal commitment. If there is no plan for offspring, I 100% agree with your sentiment.
- w0mbat 7y ago
  Right. For example I have useful dual citizenship, which I can't pass on to my daughter because I'm not married to her mother. The rules on this vary according to the countries involved.
  - dudul 7y ago
    Curious to know which citizenship that would be. My kids automatically got my citizenship just because I'm their dad, nothing to do with me being married to their mom or not.
nostrademons 7y ago
> Legal marriage is a lifetime obligation where the terms aren't decided until after you sign. That's part of the point - customary marriage vows are usually something like "to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, to love you and honour you until death do us part". There's a recognition there that life is uncertain and you can't predict exactly what the terms will be for the remainder of your life. But like most contracts, marriage is an exercise in giving up freedom to build trust - it's a way of aligning incentives so that two people can each know that the other has their back, even when they don't know exactly what that means. If you're not interested in making that contract or don't feel you could possibly be ready for it, then by all means, don't get married. It's not for everyone. But there's stuff you miss out on with that choice too.
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > it's a way of aligning incentives so that two people can each know that the other has their back But it doesn't align incentives. Instead, it creates unaligned incentives. In most relationships, one person is more of a spender and one person is more of a saver. Marriage is one big F-U to the saver. As far as I can tell, the real reasons to get married are the medical decision making and visitation rights. That's about it.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    > As far as I can tell, the real reasons to get married are the medical decision making and visitation rights. That's about it. Perhaps there is something more to an arrangement developed all over the world spanning a variety of cultures. Yes, one aspect of marriage is the business partnership. But there are other aspects to a marriage relationship that can’t be codified in law. Maybe it’s not as necessary with women now having just as much economic power as men.
    - nordsieck 7y ago
      > Perhaps there is something more to an arrangement developed all over the world spanning a variety of cultures. Yes, one aspect of marriage is the business partnership. But there are other aspects to a marriage relationship that can’t be codified in law. I have nothing against the cultural institution of marriage. It's probably a good idea for most people. However, most people are unwilling to participate in the cultural institution of marriage without also having a legal marriage. At this point in the US, the laws surrounding marriage and the cultural institution have almost nothing to do with each other. For example, almost all of the laws around the sexual aspects of marriage: for cause divorce, alienation of affections, etc. are gone in most places. So when people are evaluating marriage, the most important thing to evaluate is the law, because that's what affects people lives the most.
yodsanklai 7y ago
I agree, it seems insane, yet people do get married, sometimes several times. Even the super rich apparently... I really wonder what goes through their head. I think it shows how social pressure and traditions are very powerful forces. That, and an incapacity to project themselves in the future. Humans are optimistic by nature. If we weren't, we'd be constantly anxious about getting old, declining, dying...
- ryanwaggoner 7y ago
  Or maybe they just have different values from you?
monocasa 7y ago
Eh, that's who we thought until I was unconscious from a ski accident, and my gf (now wife) wasn't allowed access.
- epicureanideal 7y ago
  Sounds like you need to draft some kind of situational power of attorney document. Much safer than a marriage.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
falcolas 7y ago
Married couples also have legal and implied rights that non-married partners do not have, especially if/when one of the people is seriously injured. There can also be financial benefits for taxes, especially if you have dependents. If my partner is in the ICU and we're married, I can sit with them and have a say in the care they receive. If we're not married, I often can't sit with them, nor can I get most details about how they're actually doing (HIPPA laws; you can get around this if you put waivers in place before needed), nor have any influence on their care.
- joeblow9999 7y ago
  you can set up power of attorney for your partner
bradstewart 7y ago
The social acceptance aspect is vanishing in some ways, but certainly not in all. That can be a huge benefit to marriage, especially if some of the less-than-accepting parties are family members. Yes, the world would be a better place if family always accepted your choice of partner, regardless of marriage. But that's often not the reality we live in due to religious beliefs, cultural norms, etc. I don't believe everyone should get married. I don't believe there should be any social stigma surrounding marriage--either positive or negative. But I do think it has value. I'll be the first to admit that I was not expecting marriage to cause any sort of change in my mentality, the way I approached the relationship, or the relationship dynamics in general. But it happened. I fundamentally believed I was 100% committed and marriage was a waste of time and money. But there was a "voice" in the back of mind always saying "you can just leave if you don't like a thing"; and I didn't recognize it was even there until I got married and it stopped.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  This 1000%. I am an agnostic, yet I accepted to have a church wedding for respect for my future wife. And the whole wedding day has been one of, if not the most amazing day of my life. That caught me utterly by surprise. And same could be said about many other aspects of life together. It made things better between us when I didn't expect they would, not just like that. It brings people closer. I couldn't care less about financial risks, I won't be taking money to the grave and life is damn short. There are far more important things in my life than zealously watching out and calculating cost/benefits.
Gatsky 7y ago
Yet many of the world’s wealthiest and most powerful people, who could do anything they want, get married... how does that square with your thesis?
- BubRoss 7y ago
  Anyone can choose to get married or not, why does 'wealth and power' matter?
  - Gatsky 7y ago
    Well if marriage is ‘Insane’ then you might think that people with high agency might choose to do something else. If not the OP’s ideas about marriage may be missing the point.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      High financial agency in no way makes someone immune from family, peer, or even societal pressure.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    “Being wealthy” is a rough proxy for “prioritizing wealth over other things” and therefore the existence of so many wealthy married people suggests marriage is not an impediment to wealth.
- Porthos9K 7y ago
  They're still people. That makes them prone to doing irrational things when they're hungry, lonely, angry, or horny.
friendlybus 7y ago
Jobs and companies are designed to die when they are no longer competitive. Corporate legal structures do not ask as deep questions of the individual participating as a marriage does. Child producing relationships work better with two consistent parents. Divorced parents still frequently share custody and are forced to deal with each other. The idea that you can be truly divorced with kids is a strange one. Couples without marriage cannot truly divulge the deepest secrets, go into the deepest of exiled places with someone else without a binding relationship. Not that marriage seems to mean that anymore, with the societal expectation that both sides will leave when it doesn't work for them anymore.
- david38 7y ago
  True, but many parents divorce. The children will do better when the father isn’t broke because the mother took him to the cleaners and spent $200k on lawyer fees and then had him thrown in jail for lack of child support payment that he couldn’t afford. Then he can keep going back to jail because as a “felon” he will never be able to afford the payments. This story was told to me by a woman whose mother did that to her father. The woman was slightly annoyed her mother kept getting the father thrown in jail because then she couldn’t see him. It never even occurred to her how horrible of a person the mother was for what she was doing to the father.
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    Yeah things are seriously messed up.
d1zzy 7y ago
Good luck getting dependent visas for a unmarried spouse...
- Aeolun 7y ago
  I don’t think they’re a spouse then? Just a girlfriend.
missosoup 7y ago
My understanding is that not getting married doesn't actually change much, since de-facto partners get a very similar set of power upon breakup? I've heard horror stories in AU of guys getting kicked out of their own house by their ex-girlfriends after living together for a few months.
apta 7y ago
> You wouldn't sign a job contract where if you got fired or quit you would face unspecified financial and personal penalties It's only like that in the US and perhaps some other Western countries. Other societies put up front the cost involved in case of divorce in the marriage contract itself.
35787 7y ago
No, actually you’re wrong. Even if you live in a state that does not practice common law marriage, you probably live in a state that adheres to the concept of cohabitation. I’ve looked at the laws myself for my state, and it’s clear that a man can be held responsible for non-marital alimony just for having a woman reside on his property. No paperwork is necessary, not even a verbal agreement. The laws are totally stacked against men and it’s complete bullshit.
iliketocomplain 7y ago
You comparing marriage to a job is insanity.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago

Legal marriage is a partnership. Marriage has other connotations from a social and religious sense. But business is business. You can’t afford to have a spouse who knows nothing about the business end up taking over the reins and making decisions that affect the business.

unilynx 7y ago
You can split ownership and control. You should have arrangements in advance in the worst case (*), especially if your business employs others (where the worst case is probably being in an 'alive but not being able to make decisions' state, which can freeze all decision power and financial control)

maxaf 7y ago

> Unless one party is truly in it for the money, there is very little advantage to it other than the social acceptance that comes from being married which is vanishing anyway. There are other tangible advantages that you’re overlooking. Immigration and medical proxy are two that come to mind. I also find it convenient that my wife cannot be compelled to testify against me, or I against her.

arcticfox 7y ago
It's a fascinating choice of words that you find it "convenient" that your spouse can't be forced to testify against you. That benefit has literally never crossed my mind, much less been convenient...

navigatesol 7y ago

You're responsible to your partner, regarding acquired assets, whether you are legally married or common law.

newnewpdro 7y ago
Most states do not recognize common law marriage. And you can play it safe by regularly declaring you are not married in front of witnesses as a couple.

magicalhippo 7y ago

Here in Norway there are some significant legal benefits from being married. Things like special beneficial tax rules and inheritance.

ImprovedSilence 7y ago

Unless you want to have (or end up having) kids. That’s a whole different ballgame of long term shared responsibility, financially or otherwise, and it absolutely makes sense to have a legal commitment. If there is no plan for offspring, I 100% agree with your sentiment.

w0mbat 7y ago
Right. For example I have useful dual citizenship, which I can't pass on to my daughter because I'm not married to her mother. The rules on this vary according to the countries involved.
- dudul 7y ago
  Curious to know which citizenship that would be. My kids automatically got my citizenship just because I'm their dad, nothing to do with me being married to their mom or not.

nostrademons 7y ago

> Legal marriage is a lifetime obligation where the terms aren't decided until after you sign. That's part of the point - customary marriage vows are usually something like "to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, to love you and honour you until death do us part". There's a recognition there that life is uncertain and you can't predict exactly what the terms will be for the remainder of your life. But like most contracts, marriage is an exercise in giving up freedom to build trust - it's a way of aligning incentives so that two people can each know that the other has their back, even when they don't know exactly what that means. If you're not interested in making that contract or don't feel you could possibly be ready for it, then by all means, don't get married. It's not for everyone. But there's stuff you miss out on with that choice too.

nordsieck 7y ago
> it's a way of aligning incentives so that two people can each know that the other has their back But it doesn't align incentives. Instead, it creates unaligned incentives. In most relationships, one person is more of a spender and one person is more of a saver. Marriage is one big F-U to the saver. As far as I can tell, the real reasons to get married are the medical decision making and visitation rights. That's about it.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  > As far as I can tell, the real reasons to get married are the medical decision making and visitation rights. That's about it. Perhaps there is something more to an arrangement developed all over the world spanning a variety of cultures. Yes, one aspect of marriage is the business partnership. But there are other aspects to a marriage relationship that can’t be codified in law. Maybe it’s not as necessary with women now having just as much economic power as men.
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    > Perhaps there is something more to an arrangement developed all over the world spanning a variety of cultures. Yes, one aspect of marriage is the business partnership. But there are other aspects to a marriage relationship that can’t be codified in law. I have nothing against the cultural institution of marriage. It's probably a good idea for most people. However, most people are unwilling to participate in the cultural institution of marriage without also having a legal marriage. At this point in the US, the laws surrounding marriage and the cultural institution have almost nothing to do with each other. For example, almost all of the laws around the sexual aspects of marriage: for cause divorce, alienation of affections, etc. are gone in most places. So when people are evaluating marriage, the most important thing to evaluate is the law, because that's what affects people lives the most.

yodsanklai 7y ago

I agree, it seems insane, yet people do get married, sometimes several times. Even the super rich apparently... I really wonder what goes through their head. I think it shows how social pressure and traditions are very powerful forces. That, and an incapacity to project themselves in the future. Humans are optimistic by nature. If we weren't, we'd be constantly anxious about getting old, declining, dying...

ryanwaggoner 7y ago
Or maybe they just have different values from you?

monocasa 7y ago

Eh, that's who we thought until I was unconscious from a ski accident, and my gf (now wife) wasn't allowed access.

epicureanideal 7y ago
Sounds like you need to draft some kind of situational power of attorney document. Much safer than a marriage.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

falcolas 7y ago

Married couples also have legal and implied rights that non-married partners do not have, especially if/when one of the people is seriously injured. There can also be financial benefits for taxes, especially if you have dependents. If my partner is in the ICU and we're married, I can sit with them and have a say in the care they receive. If we're not married, I often can't sit with them, nor can I get most details about how they're actually doing (HIPPA laws; you can get around this if you put waivers in place before needed), nor have any influence on their care.

joeblow9999 7y ago
you can set up power of attorney for your partner

bradstewart 7y ago

The social acceptance aspect is vanishing in some ways, but certainly not in all. That can be a huge benefit to marriage, especially if some of the less-than-accepting parties are family members. Yes, the world would be a better place if family always accepted your choice of partner, regardless of marriage. But that's often not the reality we live in due to religious beliefs, cultural norms, etc. I don't believe everyone should get married. I don't believe there should be any social stigma surrounding marriage--either positive or negative. But I do think it has value. I'll be the first to admit that I was not expecting marriage to cause any sort of change in my mentality, the way I approached the relationship, or the relationship dynamics in general. But it happened. I fundamentally believed I was 100% committed and marriage was a waste of time and money. But there was a "voice" in the back of mind always saying "you can just leave if you don't like a thing"; and I didn't recognize it was even there until I got married and it stopped.

saiya-jin 7y ago
This 1000%. I am an agnostic, yet I accepted to have a church wedding for respect for my future wife. And the whole wedding day has been one of, if not the most amazing day of my life. That caught me utterly by surprise. And same could be said about many other aspects of life together. It made things better between us when I didn't expect they would, not just like that. It brings people closer. I couldn't care less about financial risks, I won't be taking money to the grave and life is damn short. There are far more important things in my life than zealously watching out and calculating cost/benefits.

Gatsky 7y ago

Yet many of the world’s wealthiest and most powerful people, who could do anything they want, get married... how does that square with your thesis?

BubRoss 7y ago
Anyone can choose to get married or not, why does 'wealth and power' matter?
- Gatsky 7y ago
  Well if marriage is ‘Insane’ then you might think that people with high agency might choose to do something else. If not the OP’s ideas about marriage may be missing the point.
  - kelnos 7y ago
    High financial agency in no way makes someone immune from family, peer, or even societal pressure.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  “Being wealthy” is a rough proxy for “prioritizing wealth over other things” and therefore the existence of so many wealthy married people suggests marriage is not an impediment to wealth.
Porthos9K 7y ago
They're still people. That makes them prone to doing irrational things when they're hungry, lonely, angry, or horny.

friendlybus 7y ago

Jobs and companies are designed to die when they are no longer competitive. Corporate legal structures do not ask as deep questions of the individual participating as a marriage does. Child producing relationships work better with two consistent parents. Divorced parents still frequently share custody and are forced to deal with each other. The idea that you can be truly divorced with kids is a strange one. Couples without marriage cannot truly divulge the deepest secrets, go into the deepest of exiled places with someone else without a binding relationship. Not that marriage seems to mean that anymore, with the societal expectation that both sides will leave when it doesn't work for them anymore.

david38 7y ago
True, but many parents divorce. The children will do better when the father isn’t broke because the mother took him to the cleaners and spent $200k on lawyer fees and then had him thrown in jail for lack of child support payment that he couldn’t afford. Then he can keep going back to jail because as a “felon” he will never be able to afford the payments. This story was told to me by a woman whose mother did that to her father. The woman was slightly annoyed her mother kept getting the father thrown in jail because then she couldn’t see him. It never even occurred to her how horrible of a person the mother was for what she was doing to the father.
- friendlybus 7y ago
  Yeah things are seriously messed up.

d1zzy 7y ago

Good luck getting dependent visas for a unmarried spouse...

Aeolun 7y ago
I don’t think they’re a spouse then? Just a girlfriend.

missosoup 7y ago

My understanding is that not getting married doesn't actually change much, since de-facto partners get a very similar set of power upon breakup? I've heard horror stories in AU of guys getting kicked out of their own house by their ex-girlfriends after living together for a few months.

apta 7y ago

> You wouldn't sign a job contract where if you got fired or quit you would face unspecified financial and personal penalties It's only like that in the US and perhaps some other Western countries. Other societies put up front the cost involved in case of divorce in the marriage contract itself.

35787 7y ago

No, actually you’re wrong. Even if you live in a state that does not practice common law marriage, you probably live in a state that adheres to the concept of cohabitation. I’ve looked at the laws myself for my state, and it’s clear that a man can be held responsible for non-marital alimony just for having a woman reside on his property. No paperwork is necessary, not even a verbal agreement. The laws are totally stacked against men and it’s complete bullshit.

iliketocomplain 7y ago

You comparing marriage to a job is insanity.