6 ms·

Please remember that only part of the Catalan population participated in the referendum - mainly the ones that wanted to secede. The result was a huge majority

by flexie 7y ago

Please remember that only part of the Catalan population participated in the referendum - mainly the ones that wanted to secede. The result was a huge majority according to Catalan authorities but turnout was merely 40-something percent. It's widely understood that voters that wanted to remain didn't participate. It is highly questionable whether the independence movement has even 50 percent support. Indications are that the support hovers around 40-something percent. It was highest in 2013, where it reached 55 percent. Please notice that this is not close to the super majority which is normally required for constitutional changes in most democracies.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
That's a pretty self-serving argument. Resorting to the 'silent majority' to justify disregarding democracy is not very...democratic. The way Catalan folk showed what they think on this subject, was by voting. That's pretty fundamental.
- iagovar 7y ago
  That's not self-serving argument, it's just plain true. Most of those who didn't support independence simply didn't vote. Parties against this movement sent this message to their voters. It seems that only a slice from the non-supporters from the left showed up to vote.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    That sounds like you abdicated your part in the decision, then? How is democracy to work, if the parties see 'not voting' as some sort of super-vote? Next time, I humbly suggest everyone vote, and have their voice heard.
    - rumanator 7y ago
      > That sounds like you abdicated your part in the decision, then? Given that the so called decision was ripe with voting fraud (I mean, separatists storing voting ballots at home?) then the process actually has nothing to do with deciding and everything to do with a Putin-istic imposition of a policy hidden with a thin façade of an election.
    - kentrado 7y ago
      The vote was illegal according to the Spanish constitution, the supreme court later confirmed this. You adbicate nothing by refusing to participate in a illegal vote. You can't talk about democratic legitimatecy when only 40% voted.
      - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
        Wasn't that after re-writing the constitution? So was the vote illegal at the time? I know this is an emotional issue. But the rule of law is purported to be enshrined in the Spanish Constitution.
        kgwgk 7y ago
        > Wasn't that after re-writing the constitution? No. "The Constitution has been amended twice. The first time, Article 13.2, Title I was altered to extend to citizens of the European Union the right to active and passive suffrage (both voting rights and eligibility as candidates) in local elections. The second time, in August/September 2011, a balanced budget amendment and debt brake was added to Article 135." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Spain
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      The argument is that democracy was not meant to work in this case; that the vote should not have been held at all and Madrid was right to prohibit it. From that perspective, there's a reasonable argument for boycotting the vote to strengthen the case that it's not valid.
    - iagovar 7y ago
      I'm not Catalan, so even if I wanted to vote, I can't.
    - wbronitsky 7y ago
      This is a pretty "I know better than you" take, one that is eliding pretty important facts, like that this election was blatantly illegal. I, for one, would probably choose to not vote in an illegal election that purports to speak for me as well. Additionally, it is not helpful to "suggest" that a majority of a region take part in illegal activity. It would seem to me that not every election is democratic; this reductive argument that elections, write large, equal democracy does not help find a solution
- flexie 7y ago
  An independence based on a referendum arranged by separatists and which almost only separatists participated in, is hardly "pretty fundamental". Take a look at the support for independence: it's not a majority opinion and it's getting smaller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#2017_referendum,_Declaration_of_Independence_and_new_regional_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#...
  - cududa 7y ago
    Yeah tell that to brexiteers
- gambiting 7y ago
  I disagree - if some group made an illegal referendum about my own region seceding, of course I wouldn't vote in it - it would be giving it legitimacy it doesn't deserve.
capableweb 7y ago
I think we should also take into consideration the fact that the referendum was illegal according to spanish state, so you have bunch of people who don't want to vote, only because it's illegal. If there was a fair and legal vote, we'd see some actual numbers that can be trusted.
- beerandt 7y ago
  But isn't this essentially the argument all empires or dictators use to suppress colonies, etc. ? Declaring independence, more times than not, is an illegal act in someone's eyes.
  - capableweb 7y ago
    Yes, I agree. I'm not saying it's wrong/right for a referendum, just giving a possible reason we can't trust the numbers of the referendum that happened (or didn't really happen, if you're the spanish government). There are a few cases where the independence referendum was legal and recognized by whoever they were trying to get independence from. Algergia, Guinea, Samoa, whole bunch of ex Soviet Union countries. There are future referendums planned that are recognized as well. So it's not impossible. It just won't work with the current Spanish Government (a referendum. Indepedence, maybe)
chr1 7y ago
The question is not about the support that independence movement has, but about unreasonable and unjust verdict. No sane justice system would imprison someone for separatism, removing them from office should have been the maximal measure a civilized country would apply. The government of spain should be condemned the same way other countries that have political prisoners are condemned.
- david-gpu 7y ago
  Of course you can be a separatist in Spain and be vocal about it. That will not land you in jail. What you can't do is misuse public funds and census data to organize an illegal election. You want to secede? No problem, but you must abide by the existing laws, or face the consequences. In practice, the first thing they needed to do was ammend the Constitution, which, like in most democracies, requires a supermajority in the parliament and the senate. It's not that hard, there was an ammend a few years ago.
  - chr1 7y ago
    What i am trying to say is that the consequences in the current law are unreasonable and unfair, and application of that consequences escalates conflict instead of de-escalating. Application of unreasonable punishment simply will increase the number of people supporting secession, so allowing referendum (possibly requiring 3/4 majority in catalonia alone) would have done much less damage to Spain, than what have happened instead.
    - david-gpu 7y ago
      I understand what you are saying, but picture this: the governor of Florida dislikes the federal government and, even throw he know the US Constitution disallows the secession of a state, announces a referendum to vote for independence. He is given plenty of warning that moving forward with it is illegal, yet he sticks to his guns, misusing public funds to pay for it. What is the penalty for that in the US? Is it excessive in your opinion? How does the opportunity of parole look like compared to Spain? Incidentally, much like it happened with Brexit, the "leave" campaign makes all sorts of promises that it could never deliver: catalonians would keep their Spanish passports, they would continue to receive Spanish pensions, they would automatically remain part of the EU and NATO, they would not be burdened with any of the existing public debt (bond obligations), etc. Misled with all these transparent lies, around 40% of those called to vote actually show up, while the rest of the people listen to the advice of the central government urging them not to vote and take part in that farce. Unsurprisingly, most of the people who voted were hardcore leavers. I don't like how the Spanish central governments have handled the situation. But it's also true that there's been an outstanding marketing campaign online to paint a minority of catalonians as "the true will of the Catalonian people" and it's tiresome to hear foreigners voice strong opinions about something they understand so superficially. Lots of Spaniards like myself are tired of the situation. Want to secede? Fine. Let's follow the law, ammend whatever needs to be ammended, have some basic plan for fundamental questions like membership to the EU, pensiond, debt obligations, etc. The, with an understanding of what is on the table, vote for it. Just like Brexit should have been done.
AlexTrask 7y ago
About 80% of the population of Catalonia is in favor of a referèndum (to vote yes or no) meanwhile Spain represes any atempt to make it.
- wbronitsky 7y ago
  I cannot verify this statement. Do you have anything we can look to to verify this?
  - e98cuenc 7y ago
    The usual poll is drafted in a way that almost everyone answers yes (usually by pro independence newspapers). Something like: "would you approve the vote on a referendum agreed with Spain?" Otherwise, it's pretty obvious people voting for Cs and PP will never answer "Yes" and that's already way more than 20%
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - AlexTrask 7y ago
    82% according the suervery of Macroscopia to the spanish newspaper "El Pais" https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/22/media/1506106430_606062.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/22/media/1506106430_606062...
Traster 7y ago
Whilst it's true that the referendum isn't enough to justify actually seceding, I think that it clearly demonstrated that there should have been a legitimate referendum organised.

by flexie 7y ago

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

That's a pretty self-serving argument. Resorting to the 'silent majority' to justify disregarding democracy is not very...democratic. The way Catalan folk showed what they think on this subject, was by voting. That's pretty fundamental.

iagovar 7y ago
That's not self-serving argument, it's just plain true. Most of those who didn't support independence simply didn't vote. Parties against this movement sent this message to their voters. It seems that only a slice from the non-supporters from the left showed up to vote.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  That sounds like you abdicated your part in the decision, then? How is democracy to work, if the parties see 'not voting' as some sort of super-vote? Next time, I humbly suggest everyone vote, and have their voice heard.
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > That sounds like you abdicated your part in the decision, then? Given that the so called decision was ripe with voting fraud (I mean, separatists storing voting ballots at home?) then the process actually has nothing to do with deciding and everything to do with a Putin-istic imposition of a policy hidden with a thin façade of an election.
  - kentrado 7y ago
    The vote was illegal according to the Spanish constitution, the supreme court later confirmed this. You adbicate nothing by refusing to participate in a illegal vote. You can't talk about democratic legitimatecy when only 40% voted.
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      Wasn't that after re-writing the constitution? So was the vote illegal at the time? I know this is an emotional issue. But the rule of law is purported to be enshrined in the Spanish Constitution.
      - kgwgk 7y ago
        > Wasn't that after re-writing the constitution? No. "The Constitution has been amended twice. The first time, Article 13.2, Title I was altered to extend to citizens of the European Union the right to active and passive suffrage (both voting rights and eligibility as candidates) in local elections. The second time, in August/September 2011, a balanced budget amendment and debt brake was added to Article 135." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Spain
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    The argument is that democracy was not meant to work in this case; that the vote should not have been held at all and Madrid was right to prohibit it. From that perspective, there's a reasonable argument for boycotting the vote to strengthen the case that it's not valid.
  - iagovar 7y ago
    I'm not Catalan, so even if I wanted to vote, I can't.
  - wbronitsky 7y ago
    This is a pretty "I know better than you" take, one that is eliding pretty important facts, like that this election was blatantly illegal. I, for one, would probably choose to not vote in an illegal election that purports to speak for me as well. Additionally, it is not helpful to "suggest" that a majority of a region take part in illegal activity. It would seem to me that not every election is democratic; this reductive argument that elections, write large, equal democracy does not help find a solution
flexie 7y ago
An independence based on a referendum arranged by separatists and which almost only separatists participated in, is hardly "pretty fundamental". Take a look at the support for independence: it's not a majority opinion and it's getting smaller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#2017_referendum,_Declaration_of_Independence_and_new_regional_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#...
- cududa 7y ago
  Yeah tell that to brexiteers
gambiting 7y ago
I disagree - if some group made an illegal referendum about my own region seceding, of course I wouldn't vote in it - it would be giving it legitimacy it doesn't deserve.

capableweb 7y ago

I think we should also take into consideration the fact that the referendum was illegal according to spanish state, so you have bunch of people who don't want to vote, only because it's illegal. If there was a fair and legal vote, we'd see some actual numbers that can be trusted.

beerandt 7y ago
But isn't this essentially the argument all empires or dictators use to suppress colonies, etc. ? Declaring independence, more times than not, is an illegal act in someone's eyes.
- capableweb 7y ago
  Yes, I agree. I'm not saying it's wrong/right for a referendum, just giving a possible reason we can't trust the numbers of the referendum that happened (or didn't really happen, if you're the spanish government). There are a few cases where the independence referendum was legal and recognized by whoever they were trying to get independence from. Algergia, Guinea, Samoa, whole bunch of ex Soviet Union countries. There are future referendums planned that are recognized as well. So it's not impossible. It just won't work with the current Spanish Government (a referendum. Indepedence, maybe)

chr1 7y ago

The question is not about the support that independence movement has, but about unreasonable and unjust verdict. No sane justice system would imprison someone for separatism, removing them from office should have been the maximal measure a civilized country would apply. The government of spain should be condemned the same way other countries that have political prisoners are condemned.

david-gpu 7y ago
Of course you can be a separatist in Spain and be vocal about it. That will not land you in jail. What you can't do is misuse public funds and census data to organize an illegal election. You want to secede? No problem, but you must abide by the existing laws, or face the consequences. In practice, the first thing they needed to do was ammend the Constitution, which, like in most democracies, requires a supermajority in the parliament and the senate. It's not that hard, there was an ammend a few years ago.
- chr1 7y ago
  What i am trying to say is that the consequences in the current law are unreasonable and unfair, and application of that consequences escalates conflict instead of de-escalating. Application of unreasonable punishment simply will increase the number of people supporting secession, so allowing referendum (possibly requiring 3/4 majority in catalonia alone) would have done much less damage to Spain, than what have happened instead.
  - david-gpu 7y ago
    I understand what you are saying, but picture this: the governor of Florida dislikes the federal government and, even throw he know the US Constitution disallows the secession of a state, announces a referendum to vote for independence. He is given plenty of warning that moving forward with it is illegal, yet he sticks to his guns, misusing public funds to pay for it. What is the penalty for that in the US? Is it excessive in your opinion? How does the opportunity of parole look like compared to Spain? Incidentally, much like it happened with Brexit, the "leave" campaign makes all sorts of promises that it could never deliver: catalonians would keep their Spanish passports, they would continue to receive Spanish pensions, they would automatically remain part of the EU and NATO, they would not be burdened with any of the existing public debt (bond obligations), etc. Misled with all these transparent lies, around 40% of those called to vote actually show up, while the rest of the people listen to the advice of the central government urging them not to vote and take part in that farce. Unsurprisingly, most of the people who voted were hardcore leavers. I don't like how the Spanish central governments have handled the situation. But it's also true that there's been an outstanding marketing campaign online to paint a minority of catalonians as "the true will of the Catalonian people" and it's tiresome to hear foreigners voice strong opinions about something they understand so superficially. Lots of Spaniards like myself are tired of the situation. Want to secede? Fine. Let's follow the law, ammend whatever needs to be ammended, have some basic plan for fundamental questions like membership to the EU, pensiond, debt obligations, etc. The, with an understanding of what is on the table, vote for it. Just like Brexit should have been done.

AlexTrask 7y ago

About 80% of the population of Catalonia is in favor of a referèndum (to vote yes or no) meanwhile Spain represes any atempt to make it.

wbronitsky 7y ago
I cannot verify this statement. Do you have anything we can look to to verify this?
- e98cuenc 7y ago
  The usual poll is drafted in a way that almost everyone answers yes (usually by pro independence newspapers). Something like: "would you approve the vote on a referendum agreed with Spain?" Otherwise, it's pretty obvious people voting for Cs and PP will never answer "Yes" and that's already way more than 20%
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- AlexTrask 7y ago
  82% according the suervery of Macroscopia to the spanish newspaper "El Pais" https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/22/media/1506106430_606062.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/22/media/1506106430_606062...

Traster 7y ago

Whilst it's true that the referendum isn't enough to justify actually seceding, I think that it clearly demonstrated that there should have been a legitimate referendum organised.