8 ms·

"But I've already invested and sacrificed so much money, time & effort on this deal, relationship, person, place..." This thought causes victim of scams to mor

"But I've already invested and sacrificed so much money, time & effort on this deal, relationship, person, place..." This thought causes victim of scams to mortgage their houses and send the money to scammers - even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Causes victim of abusive relationships to remain even when their lives are in danger. It's also what will keep western companies in China - even as China slowly strangles them to death. Sunk Cost Fallacy

pfortuny 7y ago
I’ve paid the ticket, then I must travel.
- im3w1l 7y ago
  I think the reason we adopt this mindset is because we are ambivalent. First you feel you wanna go, then you regret it because you are nervous about the rental car, then you wanna go again, then you regret it because there's a lot of stuff at work you want to deal with, then you wanna go, then you get scared of skin cancer from the strong sun etc etc Booking and cancelling and booking and cancelling and... It would be terrible to change your mind so often. So you decide to just go with the option you picked first even though it temporarily seems suboptimal.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    It's suboptimal to continually change your mind so rapidly too, not just 'terrible' mentally, because the real world around you imposes significant penalties for doing so. Switching flights and hotels on a moment's notice is expensive. Arbitrary days off work are difficult for most. For some travel you're looking at visas, rental cars, etc as stated. There's a lot of inertia in the boring and stable path.
Peckingjay 7y ago
All your data in China collected at will to be shared with all entities of the Chinese government and potentially any private company it owns feels more like a really fast and aggressive ramp-up than a slow strangulation to me.
safgasCVS 7y ago
In the light of what Snowden and Assange revealed about what the ‘good guys‘ are actively doing I do enjoy reading this doublethink
- perlpimp 7y ago
  you are not banned from using VPN otherwise. Did you even read the document ?
  - safgasCVS 7y ago
    My dude - whatever China does in its own borders is it’s own business. If it starts invading other nations or threatens them with war unless they do as they are told then I’ll care. But no thanks I won’t be told when to be morally outraged by pretending western nations are somehow morally superior because “free speech” yet 5 min later let’s sell arms to Saudi Arabia. But cool story on the vpn
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      > If it starts invading other nations or threatens them with war unless they do as they are told then I’ll care. Well you are in luck, China still has that whole South China Sea thing going on these days.
      - Ygg2 7y ago
        Don't forget China's other colonies - Australia and Canada.
    - vorpalhex 7y ago
      Yeah, historically cracking down on a particular ethnic group and putting them in camps for "re-education" has gone so well and totally never caused any issues...
    - _jal 7y ago
      > whatever China does in its own borders is it’s own business No. Even if this were a moral position, China doesn't follow this either. Human rights should not be geofenced.
milofeynman 7y ago
China can also assume company boards will be making short term gains decisions, while China is making long term moves.
- dleslie 7y ago
  Not just private entities; democratic states tend not to produce meaningful policy that reaches beyond their electoral terms.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    I would be very surprised if Chinese leadership isn't extremely cognizant of the necessarily short term thinking forced upon corporations (quarterly/annual earnings progression) and politicians (re-election) in Western democracies, and putting a massive amount of strategic thinking into how to best exploit this without attracting too much attention. Neither the corporations or politicians are going to be particularly motivated to draw attention to it, and public concerns on individual issues like this are typically ineffectual, I think they will be able to get an absolute massive amount of mileage out of this weakness. Honestly, I think the West's best defense is young otherwise powerless people on the internet making memes mocking the irresponsible behavior of people in power.
    - Loughla 7y ago
      >Honestly, I think the West's best defense is young otherwise powerless people on the internet making memes mocking the irresponsible behavior of people in power. I honestly am going to need you to explain why this is your thought.
      - mistermann 7y ago
        I see no other defense that would plausibly be undertaken in the current culture of the West. There are many options of course, I just don't see any that maintain current levels of corporate profitability and re-election likelihood. What little commentary on the matter I see from those who hold power seems motivated by the chance for political gain, or corporate perception management.
rjf72 7y ago
Would you prefer a government that is open and overt about their domestic surveillance or one that tries to keep the public in the dark about what is happening while relying on secret courts, secret organizations, and extensive classification for everything? Many of the 'outrageous' things about this are already being done in the USA, but secretively. PRISM [1] in the USA, for contrast, is described in internal slides as a program that allows "extensive, in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information" with examples including email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice-over-IP chats (such as Skype), file transfers, and social networking details. The secret court system that's supposed to be there for oversight is little more than a rubber stamp machine. In 10 years there were more than 20,000 surveillance requests sent to the secret court. It rejected 10. But regardless of how many they reject a secret court entirely destroys the point of oversight. It's one secret agency overseeing another secret agency where they are going to be deeply interconnected with 0 transparency. People forget about these things because it's no longer headline news, but these programs are still alive and well - and almost certainly more expansive than ever before. And while China is completely open about spying on people and coercing companies, the United States instead lies about it and forces companies to lie about under threat from secret lawsuits from secret organizations with secret subpoenas, secret warrants, and secret orders, all originating from secret courts. I would much rather have no surveillance at all. But should that option fail, I think open surveillance is a million times better than secret surveillance. Of course there is one interesting issue there. Open surveillance could never work in a democracy because people freak out about things and would actually do something about it, if they had any clue what was happening - which is why they're kept misinformed + uninformed. By contrast the people, on a matter like this, are completely powerless in China so their government can afford to be open. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%...
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  > Would you prefer a government that is open and overt about their domestic surveillance or one that tries to keep the public in the dark about what is happening Translation: would I prefer a government that is openly hostile to human rights, or one that has some laws. In answer, I'd prefer my system not yours. > which is why they're kept misinformed + uninformed And out comes the usual claim that westerners are ignorant.

pfortuny 7y ago

I’ve paid the ticket, then I must travel.

im3w1l 7y ago
I think the reason we adopt this mindset is because we are ambivalent. First you feel you wanna go, then you regret it because you are nervous about the rental car, then you wanna go again, then you regret it because there's a lot of stuff at work you want to deal with, then you wanna go, then you get scared of skin cancer from the strong sun etc etc Booking and cancelling and booking and cancelling and... It would be terrible to change your mind so often. So you decide to just go with the option you picked first even though it temporarily seems suboptimal.
- esotericn 7y ago
  It's suboptimal to continually change your mind so rapidly too, not just 'terrible' mentally, because the real world around you imposes significant penalties for doing so. Switching flights and hotels on a moment's notice is expensive. Arbitrary days off work are difficult for most. For some travel you're looking at visas, rental cars, etc as stated. There's a lot of inertia in the boring and stable path.

Peckingjay 7y ago

All your data in China collected at will to be shared with all entities of the Chinese government and potentially any private company it owns feels more like a really fast and aggressive ramp-up than a slow strangulation to me.

safgasCVS 7y ago

In the light of what Snowden and Assange revealed about what the ‘good guys‘ are actively doing I do enjoy reading this doublethink

perlpimp 7y ago
you are not banned from using VPN otherwise. Did you even read the document ?
- safgasCVS 7y ago
  My dude - whatever China does in its own borders is it’s own business. If it starts invading other nations or threatens them with war unless they do as they are told then I’ll care. But no thanks I won’t be told when to be morally outraged by pretending western nations are somehow morally superior because “free speech” yet 5 min later let’s sell arms to Saudi Arabia. But cool story on the vpn
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    > If it starts invading other nations or threatens them with war unless they do as they are told then I’ll care. Well you are in luck, China still has that whole South China Sea thing going on these days.
    - Ygg2 7y ago
      Don't forget China's other colonies - Australia and Canada.
  - vorpalhex 7y ago
    Yeah, historically cracking down on a particular ethnic group and putting them in camps for "re-education" has gone so well and totally never caused any issues...
  - _jal 7y ago
    > whatever China does in its own borders is it’s own business No. Even if this were a moral position, China doesn't follow this either. Human rights should not be geofenced.

milofeynman 7y ago

China can also assume company boards will be making short term gains decisions, while China is making long term moves.

dleslie 7y ago
Not just private entities; democratic states tend not to produce meaningful policy that reaches beyond their electoral terms.
- mistermann 7y ago
  I would be very surprised if Chinese leadership isn't extremely cognizant of the necessarily short term thinking forced upon corporations (quarterly/annual earnings progression) and politicians (re-election) in Western democracies, and putting a massive amount of strategic thinking into how to best exploit this without attracting too much attention. Neither the corporations or politicians are going to be particularly motivated to draw attention to it, and public concerns on individual issues like this are typically ineffectual, I think they will be able to get an absolute massive amount of mileage out of this weakness. Honestly, I think the West's best defense is young otherwise powerless people on the internet making memes mocking the irresponsible behavior of people in power.
  - Loughla 7y ago
    >Honestly, I think the West's best defense is young otherwise powerless people on the internet making memes mocking the irresponsible behavior of people in power. I honestly am going to need you to explain why this is your thought.
    - mistermann 7y ago
      I see no other defense that would plausibly be undertaken in the current culture of the West. There are many options of course, I just don't see any that maintain current levels of corporate profitability and re-election likelihood. What little commentary on the matter I see from those who hold power seems motivated by the chance for political gain, or corporate perception management.

rjf72 7y ago

Would you prefer a government that is open and overt about their domestic surveillance or one that tries to keep the public in the dark about what is happening while relying on secret courts, secret organizations, and extensive classification for everything? Many of the 'outrageous' things about this are already being done in the USA, but secretively. PRISM [1] in the USA, for contrast, is described in internal slides as a program that allows "extensive, in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information" with examples including email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice-over-IP chats (such as Skype), file transfers, and social networking details. The secret court system that's supposed to be there for oversight is little more than a rubber stamp machine. In 10 years there were more than 20,000 surveillance requests sent to the secret court. It rejected 10. But regardless of how many they reject a secret court entirely destroys the point of oversight. It's one secret agency overseeing another secret agency where they are going to be deeply interconnected with 0 transparency. People forget about these things because it's no longer headline news, but these programs are still alive and well - and almost certainly more expansive than ever before. And while China is completely open about spying on people and coercing companies, the United States instead lies about it and forces companies to lie about under threat from secret lawsuits from secret organizations with secret subpoenas, secret warrants, and secret orders, all originating from secret courts. I would much rather have no surveillance at all. But should that option fail, I think open surveillance is a million times better than secret surveillance. Of course there is one interesting issue there. Open surveillance could never work in a democracy because people freak out about things and would actually do something about it, if they had any clue what was happening - which is why they're kept misinformed + uninformed. By contrast the people, on a matter like this, are completely powerless in China so their government can afford to be open. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%...

tempguy9999 7y ago
> Would you prefer a government that is open and overt about their domestic surveillance or one that tries to keep the public in the dark about what is happening Translation: would I prefer a government that is openly hostile to human rights, or one that has some laws. In answer, I'd prefer my system not yours. > which is why they're kept misinformed + uninformed And out comes the usual claim that westerners are ignorant.