23 ms·

Spain jails Catalan separatist leaders, protesters take to streets

• ga-vu 7y ago
  No offence, but what did you expect. Trying to secede in a country where secession is illegal, is... you know... a crime. You can secede in federalist countries, but most republics prohibit secession -- since most of their constitutions are based on France's model. So, a prison sentence was pretty clear for most political observers. The only way they wouldn't get prison terms was if the secession succeeded, which it did not. Technically speaking, I'm surprised they weren't charged with treason -- the de-facto charge in such cases. Good thing the EU requires members to abandon the death penalty to join. Most high-level treason charges usually end up with a noose around someone's neck. Also, please downvote me. Actual statement of facts aren't welcomed here.
  • gdy 7y ago
    That NATO would bomb Spain into stone age and liberate Catalonia.
  • coldtea 7y ago
    >Also, please downvote me. Actual statement of facts aren't welcomed here. Facts we know (at least some of us, closer to the situation). "What did you expect" is more loaded, as it also invokes political, and moral expectations, and can be misconstrued as "they got what they deserved" (as opposed to a neutral "they got what the law states"). And even the law can be bend, when there's a large public will -- e.g. the government is forced to reach a compromise, etc. So, "secession is prohibited" is not enough to warrantee the current outcome. As an example, dictatorship is also prohibited, but more than a few dictators or wannabe coup arranged for cosy non-jail deals when they were thrown out and democracy was restored...
  • oliverx0 7y ago
    Why should anyone downvote you? You are absolutely right. The sovereignty of a nation resides in all citizens of that nation. That’s definitely the case of Spain as it is the first article of their constitution. What happened in Catalonia was treason, and they were jailed for it. In my opinion, the sentence was actually a soft one. Violence was involved trying to take over, public funds were used illegally to help with the rebellion attempt, and the 50% of Catalans who are against separating from Spain had to live through such chaos.
    • gerardnll 7y ago
      I'm pretty sure you don't live in Catalunya. There was no violence, and a sentence with charges of 'sedition' and not 'rebelion' is the main difference. There's not caos in the streets as TV try to picture it, so they can justify sentences like this. nonsense.
      • oliverx0 7y ago
        I live in Madrid, and I am disgusted by the image that this whole event is giving about Spain.
        • gerardnll 7y ago
          I knew.
        • yxhuvud 7y ago
          If you want to retain your image, perhaps give the secessionists a real sanctioned vote about who to belong to. Like the election about Scottish independence that were held in UK. Stonewalling the secessionists and then complain that they are not taking it through your parliament is not a good way to handle it. (and it feels weird to put UK up there as a positive example with regards to mature handling of elections..)
          • harperlee 7y ago
            One of the differences is that the scottish vote was legal. In spain, the only legal vote would be of all spain at once; and either catalonia voting alone, or seceding after a country-level pro-independence vote, would entail rewriting the whole country structure set forth by the constitution, in order to become a confederation. Which, looking into the current political climate, would probably leave us in a deadlock much worse than brexit for years. Regarding stonewalling, they already have a much bigger representation than what their relative headcount would guarantee. It’s just that the rest of Spain, and more than half of Catalonia, don’t want the second richest region to leave with all the wealth that we all together have concentrated there throughout the years.
  • gerardnll 7y ago
    We expect to treat a political issue that has lasted for years to be handled in parliaments not in jail. It's not about law. Workers rights, women voting and other now socially accepted rules were not legal then but were demanded anyway, I'm sure people was imprisoned/killed for these affairs also.
    • oliverx0 7y ago
      Exactly, you don’t simply try to separate unilaterally from the country. That’s what Catalonian leaders did, and got punished for it.
      • logicchains 7y ago
        >separate unilaterally The whole US was founded on the idea of a right to self-determination. Without unilateral separation, it would still be part of England.
        • oliverx0 7y ago
          Spain is not a federal country. Furthermore, this is closer to NYC trying to separate from New York State.
          • logicchains 7y ago
            England wasn't a federation when America seceded either. The idea of "rights" (or at least the idea the American founders had in mind) is that they're moral concepts independent of whatever the legal system grants.
            • oliverx0 7y ago
              America had been taken over by the British. You cannot extrapolate that to every other country. That is certainly not the history of Catalonia.
              • 7y ago
  • technothrasher 7y ago
    "I'm surprised they weren't charged with treason" They were. However, they were all acquitted of that charge (called 'rebellion' in Spain).
    • gerardnll 7y ago
      Because there was no violence, as some people in favor of the jailing thing still defend.
      • oliverx0 7y ago
        The Tribubal Supremo recognized in their sentence evidence of violence. Not enough for a rebellion one, but enough for sedition.
        • gerardnll 7y ago
          All politicians involved in the independence movement stand for no violence. In a protest of hundred of thousands of people, if someone throws a rock or burns something is a politicians fault? Does this make the movement violent? Don't make me laugh. I've seen unionist protests with much less people behave worse.
          • oliverx0 7y ago
            You may or may not agree with it, but this is not me randomly saying that there was violence. We are talking about the second most powerful court in Spain, unanimously agreeing that violence took place.
  • mtgx 7y ago
    Would you have agreed to this if say the EU imposed a 9-year prison sentence for all of the government leaders of a country if they tried to exit the EU? Also do you think a 9-year prison sentence is fair for something like this? And how do you expect Catalans to react to something like this? Fall back in resentment towards the Spanish government, or turn to violence against the Spanish government?
  • eino 7y ago
    > You can secede in federalist countries Maybe in theory. But looking at American civil war, Russian war in Chechenia, and others, in practice it certainly isn't so.
  • sorokod 7y ago
    Well, states exist by (sometimes implicit) agreement of the population. Things get tricky when significant (by whatever definition of significant) part of the population is not happy with the arrangement.
  • JustFinishedBSG 7y ago
    > You can secede in federalist countries I mean... Not in practice. Just ask the US or Russian states.
    • sorokod 7y ago
      Even in case of Russia, Baltic States and others exist as independent states while they were not during USSR days
      • kgwgk 7y ago
        What does it have to do with the possibility of seceding from the Russian Federation?
        • sorokod 7y ago
          Statehood changes given enough time. In the case of Russia, and the states I mentioned, about sixty years. Scotland, part of UK for centuries, may have a referendum soon. Texas "seceeded" from Mexico in the 1840s. So it goes.
          • kgwgk 7y ago
            The thread is about whether secession from federations is possible in general. The USSR recognized the independence of those Baltic states (after military control of the situation failed) on 6 September 1991 and disappeared a few weeks later. Not the best example of orderly and and amicable secession, I think.
          • fgonzag 7y ago
            > Texas "seceeded" from Mexico in the 1840s. By winning a war... any state can secede from any country if it's able to win a war against it.
  • yeahforsureman 7y ago
    So what? Everyone knows Spanish criminal law isn't up to modern European human rights standards. The European Court of Human Rights has found Spain violating ECHR due to handing out punishments for offences as ridiculous as "insulting the Crown". These decisions smell like they might end up before the Court as well. If found in violation, for sake of consistency at least, personally I think the EU Commission should take a serious look whether this should elicit a rule of law review akin to that applied to Poland and Hungary. (Note: I'm not saying this is necessarily as serious.)
    • pvaldes 7y ago
      > Everyone knows Spanish criminal law isn't up to modern European human rights standards Sight. And there they go again... with their obvious lies and stupid statements that don't resist two minutes of research.
      • yeahforsureman 7y ago
        Don't be silly. I was merely referring to well-known ECHR case law, such as Stern Taulats and Roura Capellera v. Spain, which was about two men convicted of burning a photograph of the Spanish royal couple, and stating some opinions of my own. How could I be lying? And who are "they"? I'm no one particularly invested in this hassle.
  • remi_dez 7y ago
    No one on this forum is saying that these things are lawful in Spain. The more interesting and relevant question is whether it is right or wrong. The answer to that question is not automatically the same as lawful/unlawful. Even in a democracy.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • harperlee 7y ago
      Judges are not free to ignore the law just to appease complex political issues that have been fed for 20+ years, and can be backtracked to when Pujol came to power in Catalonia. So yes, judges did the right thing. Now it is up to the next president to manage the situation. But the news being discussed here is about politicians misusing funds to pursue their own agenda, and the penal consequences.
      • s0l1dsnak3123 7y ago
        I won't claim you are doing this intentionally, but I find it strange that you care so much about being (in my opinion) rather pedantic in this way? Don't you think it's perfectly reasonable - as a bystander and not a member of the legal profession - to apply your imagination over what ought to be and not the semantics of what is? And to engage in a debate on that basis? Do you really think that whether or not judges are free to ignore precedent has any effect on how Catalans and Spaniards feel about this decision? Or am I missing the point of your comment?
        • harperlee 7y ago
          Im not sure I follow you completely - particularly the precedent point, but ill try to explain myself: There is a huge political context around this trial, and I believe that the fact that my parent post was arguing that we should discuss about morality, not just legality, is a way to introduce this context into the evaluation of the trial to assess - and condemn - the result. I think this is mis characterizing the quality of the trial itself. Plenty of people are decrying the trial result because they want independence, which to me is intellectually dishonest. I was thus arguing that the trial itself was right, responding to a direct ask to consider right vs wrong.
  • happytoexplain 7y ago
    >No offence, but what did you expect. >Trying to secede in a country where secession is illegal, is... you know... a crime. This tone is baffling to me. I don't think anybody is surprised that countries dislike secession. >Also, please downvote me. Actual statement of facts aren't welcomed here. I don't claim to speak for "here", but, personally, this pettiness at the end of your comment is what I'd like most to be absent from HN.
    • harperlee 7y ago
      Ignoring the tone, people are demanding judges to ignore their duty, and the government to intervene in the judiciary system, so the two first quotes you pasted are actually contended points in parts of Spain.
      • atomi 7y ago
        Prosecuting the sessionist is a bad move by Spain regardless of the laws. Prosecution is always discretionary and what they're doing is just creating martyrs. Sessionists lost and Spain is the one being petty here. I predict I will see new life for this movement in my lifetime.
        • kgwgk 7y ago
          > Prosecution is always discretionary Not at all, and failing to do so can be itself a crime.
          • atomi 7y ago
            You are patently wrong. In fact, it is part of DoJ policy to direct prosecutors to where they should allocate their limited resources. We had a very nice example of this when Obama's DoJ directed prosecutors to lower their priority on prosecuting Marijuana related crimes. Admittedly, some serious crimes will always be, and deservedly so, a high priority. But prosecutors still just work under the DoJ. And I suspect Spain has a similar hierchy.
  • throw0101a 7y ago
    > The only way they wouldn't get prison terms was if the secession succeeded, which it did not. “The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it.” ― Abbie Hoffman, Steal This Book
  • tbatchelli 7y ago
    A lot of Catalans were expecting exactly this. The Spanish tribunals are highly politicized and it's an area where there wasn't much reform after Franco died of old age. My parents and other family members that grew under Franco warned everyone that this is how the Spain would react, so again, not that we didn't know. And they did it anyway. The trial was highly questionable, starting on how the judge was appointed (breaking default procedure), continuing with the lack of memory of all Spanish governmental officials, and ending with not letting the defenses show videos that directly contradicted the sworn deposition of armed forces. This will all be revisited in the European Tribunal for Human Rights, of course, and Spain will get a slap in the hand and Europe will move on. Technically speaking, as you say, they could have been charged with disobedience, as there was no violence, but you would rather have a death sentence for treason, I see...
  • dang 7y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines. They ask you to post thoughtfully and substantively on divisive topics ("No offence, but what did you expect" is not). They also ask you not to downvote-bait. Would you mind reviewing them and sticking to the rules when posting here? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  • dwild 7y ago
    > Trying to secede in a country where secession is illegal, is... you know... a crime. No one is arguing whether what they are doing is legal or not, we are arguing whether it's right or wrong.
• s0l1dsnak3123 7y ago
  A shameful moment in Spanish history.
• gerardnll 7y ago
  What a fascist state. Jailing for 9 years civilian leaders that organized peaceful protests. Shameful. A movement of more than 2 or 3 million of citizens, that's the way they handle political issues.
  • oliverx0 7y ago
    Peaceful protests? You have to be joking. Just look at all the articles of the violence that took place against the national police trying to maintain order.
    • logicchains 7y ago
      Just like all the violence taking place against the poor police in Hong Kong, as clearly documented in the Chinese national media.
    • gerardnll 7y ago
      I was on the streets the first of october while voting took place. Police brutality and passive protests is what I saw. show me your articles. Come on, even the charges are for 'sedition' not 'rebelion', crime that right-wing parties wanted. Don't tell me you watch Telemadrid, read la razón/abc...
    • maddy237 7y ago
      You are either misinformed or lying. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861001/Catalan-referendum-Spanish-police-violence-voters https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861001/Catalan-referend... https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-force-catalonia https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excess... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-vote-claims-spanish-police-brutality-probed-171003122547459.html https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-vote-claims-s... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-41463955/catalonia-referendum-violence-as-police-block-voting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-41463955/cataloni... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4586709/catalonia-won-right-independence-police-crackdown-protesters/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4586709/catalonia-won-right-in...
    • 7y ago
• _rrnv 7y ago
  It's quite hard to support freedom fighters around the globe while all along suppressing peaceful freedom fighters at home. Setting this verdict against what's happening in HK doesn't put Spain in a good light.
  • carlosrg 7y ago
    Are you really comparing a movement to secede from a militaristic communist dictatorship with no freedom of speech with a movement to secede from a EU member state with a full democracy? Which freedoms are these "freedom fighters" missing?
    • ryanlol 7y ago
      >Which freedoms are these "freedom fighters" missing? Freedom of association?
      • carlosrg 7y ago
        What?
        • ryanlol 7y ago
          FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION!
      • yiyus 7y ago
        No, not that one.
      • harperlee 7y ago
        That is patently false. Catalan proindependence people have freedom of association, they even created several political parties that are in power.
      • iagovar 7y ago
        You just wanted to comment on this or do you really have any example? Because they have many parties and civil associations, they demonstrate yearly in the central streets of Barcelona, so you tell me.
• jMyles 7y ago
  I spent some time in Catalonia last year and asked everybody I met (probably about 5 dozen in all) what they thought of the movement. Most were against it, and of those who were in favor, there were three distinct flavors: * People who simply identified as Catalan and wanted to have their own language and culture as a separate political and social unit * People who were wealthy and had assets to protect from real or perceived looming economic correction in Spain * People who formerly opposed secession, but were pissed to live in a country with high-profile political prisoners. It was hard to form a solid takeaway from all this; I'd need many more months to start to really understand the political dynamics at play. One thing about which I feel strong and certain, though, is this: The fact that something is a crime according to the entity claiming jurisdiction over a given landmass makes it neither right nor inevitable that people engaging in that thing. The right to dissolve bonds that arbitrarily obligate people to the whims of a state to which they don't consent is a real and enduring right. Whether or not the movement is righteous, it's not OK to jail people for peacefully (even if disruptively) trying to separate.
  • gerardnll 7y ago
    Of course jailing people is not a solution. But workers rights were not gained by 'asking', we expected this sentence. It's not 10 people you can jail, is more than 2-3 million people that now don't care (or even less) about 'their country'.
  • yiyus 7y ago
    Peacefully breaking the law is still breaking the law. Disobeying direct orders from court can get you in jail, mishandling public funds can get you in jail, and making official declarations that go against the constitution can get you in jail. You have all the right to think this is not OK, but it is how it is.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  • FDSGSG 7y ago
    There's also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Constitutional_Court_of_Spain_rulings_against_Catalan_Parliament_Laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Constitutional_Court_o... For example the huge Catalan cannabis industry has been stuck in a legal limbo largely thanks to Madrid failing to legislate and Spanish courts blocking Catalans from doing so.
• kypro 7y ago
  Secession should be a liberty afforded to all people. There is no excuse for forcing a group of people to live under a political system they disapprove of. And in response to some of the commenters in this thread: of course an independence movement is going to be violent, especially when the state is trying to oppress it. The independence movements in the US, NI, and India were violent too, not because they were wrong but mostly because of mixed public opinion and an oppressive state. Perhaps if we legally recognised the right to secession and offered citizens a democratic route to secession then violence wouldn't be necessary. Secession movements are going to happen regardless of their legal status.
  • JustFinishedBSG 7y ago
    That's just not possible though. Can I just secede all alone by myself?
    • MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
      Why make this argument, every time. Its not made in good faith and obviously nobody is discussing one-person states. Its always about a large group of people sharing an identity, without having their own country.
      • ohduran 7y ago
        But it makes sense to ask that question! If I can rule myself on the sole basis of self-determination, it's turtles all the way down. Can Val d'Aran[1] secede from a seceded Catalonia? Can I just ignore the rules of the country I live in on the sole basis of "a group of people sharing an identity" being people that are me? The argument is worth having, because trying to secede part of a country unilaterally by "legal" means gets down to this absurdities. One question that someone who wants to create a new country out of another, to put it that way, must ask should be "what can I give in return?" If this is going to become a negotation, hopefully, then both parties must understand that there has to be compromises, and have to find common ground. Not just "this is my right because I say so", nor "this can't be because I say so". Platitudes on liberty and justice and words that essential mean nothing lead us nowhere. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran
• squeezingswirls 7y ago
  12 accused: * 4 are sentenced for sedition and embezzlement * 5 for sedition * 3 for disobedience Their actions have been judged under the laws of a democratic state but of course Secessionist propaganda calls it 'Fascism'.
  • harperlee 7y ago
    0 people for “trying to vote” 0 people for “their ideas” 0 people for “peaceful demonstration” Etc. Please read everything about this issue with a grain of salt in both sides, it is heavily politicized to the point of reality being sidetracked. Even the prime minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, showed today grave misinformation on the ruling through a tweet.
    • FDSGSG 7y ago
      So what do you think "sedition" means?
      • harperlee 7y ago
        Public uprising against established order. Which is a) something any legal system prosecutes, and b) something these people did. There is also in Spain a aggravating case for doing this from a public role, which seems reasonable and also applies to some of these individuals.
        • FDSGSG 7y ago
          Ok, but that's not generally what sedition means
          • harperlee 7y ago
            Irrespective of the undertones that you read in the word, that is what they are being judged for. It has a precise technical meaning in the law. And I’d like to know if there is any country whatsoever in which public uprising against the state from a government official, using public funds, and in the manner carried out by them in this case, is not prosecuted.
• overkalix 7y ago
  Just nuke the fucking thread.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• bag531 7y ago
  I wonder how the comments would look if this were about China and Hong Kong instead of Spain and Catalonia.
  • yiyus 7y ago
    I guess they would look totally different because both topics are totally different.
• slx26 7y ago
  English translation of the opinion on the case by the UN working group on arbitrary detention: [ https://int.assemblea.cat/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/WorkingGroupOnArbitraryDetention.Opinion6.2019-1.pdf https://int.assemblea.cat/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Working... ] (original at https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Detention/Opinions/Session84/A_HRC_WGAD_2019_6.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Detention/Opinions/Se...) Summary: they deny the claims of violence, reject the preventive prison (~2 years for those being condemned to prison today) and denounce the lack of presumption of innocence and an impartial tribunal (119 to 124 and 132 and 133 if you want a quick look). Violence by spanish police during the "independence referendum" [ https://spanishpolice.github.io https://spanishpolice.github.io (a few hundred videos) ]. Violence by catalan people against spanish police on the same day: [ https://youtu.be/8ak9224HG_E https://youtu.be/8ak9224HG_E (guy throwing a chair to a police entering a school) ], [ https://youtu.be/DyE0DtVd4Q8 https://youtu.be/DyE0DtVd4Q8 (various people throwing portable fences to the police) ] But the most blatant case if that of Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sánchez. They are civilian leaders, not political authorities. They presided Òmnium Cultural (cultural association) and ANC (independentist association) respectively. Today condemned to 9 years each. For context, right before the "independence referendum" there were some searches to investigate the referendum and the people involved. One of them happened in the building of the regional ministry of economy (September 20th, 2017). There, a spontaneous rally started. A few hours later, Òmnium Cultural, even though they weren't the ones to start the rally, filled the documents to formally communicate it to the city hall. Some will say they were trying to obstaculize the judicial operation, and others that they were trying to keep the spontaneous rally under control. Well, one can take a look at the images: - Police car destroyed, one the most famous images when trying to show the violence of the independentists: [ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKPUVBoW0AAa4aw?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKPUVBoW0AAa4aw?format=jpg ]. Police left the car parked there, with long guns still inside. Many demonstrators, reporters and photographers climbed on top of the car during the day. At least one of the windows was broken by one of the members of the police at the end of the day, as he himself admitted during the trial. - Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sánchez climbed on top of the police car at the end of the day too in order to try to dissolve the rally (they also spoke for a couple minutes before this, with the usual "thanks for coming, we will continue rallying tomorrow, we will vote, don't be afraid, bla bla"): [ https://youtu.be/23XrRpfMaw8 https://youtu.be/23XrRpfMaw8 ]. They literally say: "as much as possible and in a peaceful way, let's dissolve the demonstration for today". In the trial, Lluís Llach, a famous Catalan singer (temporarily involved in politics at that point), said that he was there and that they initially tried to dissolve the rally from a stage that the association set up on another point on the street, but he eventually suggested that people didn't hear them from that point (as the stage was intentionally at a certain distance from the building [they played some music during the day to distend the mood]), and that they should climb to the police car to speak from there. They told the police that they were going to climb on their car, and they didn't receive a negative response, so they just went with it. During the day, they also set a small corridor [ https://www.publico.es/uploads/2018/06/26/5b324d03dca57.jpg https://www.publico.es/uploads/2018/06/26/5b324d03dca57.jpg ] to try to assist the people who had to enter and leave the building. Arguably not a good guarantee for the judicial police (who were already inside), but it makes it very hard to argue that they weren't trying to collaborate. For those rallies they get a sentence of 9 years of prison each. This is only the tip of the iceberg. The historical and political context is much more complex, I only went over a few details. The independentist leaders were at the very least fools for saying they would achieve independence in a year and a half; they played too lose with parlamentary regulations, and they systematically failed to properly address half of the population that doesn't want independence. But none of that justifies a single year of prison. 2 have already passed. They had a parliamentary majority in catalonia and a clear mandate to organize a referendum. Both the regional opposition and the Spanish government attrociously defected from politics and pushed towards the judicialization of the whole process. The case of the Jordi's is just absurd. Carme Forcadell, the previous president of the catalan parliament, gets 11 years and a half of prison for basically allowing the debate about self-determination (well, this case, like many of the others, is way more complex juridically, so you are warned about my over-simplification here). Just because Spanish media says catalan independentists are violent, that doesn't make it true (even the sentence admits this). This is not even about self-determination, it's about basic democracy and the right to protest. Meanwhile, the arbitrary detentions continue. I hope someone hears this guy in Europe: [ https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1183659498227019778 https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/11836594982270197... ]
• username90 7y ago
  I think peaceful secession laws should be codified internationally, it is ridiculous that people still need to take to violence in order to split a first world country since the act is illegal. As for size, many of the best places to live have around 5-10 million people, so I don't see any harm in splitting out populations of that size. For example, I don't believe that Norway would be better off today if they were forbidden from splitting from Sweden 100 years ago. Note that Norway hadn't been an independent country for 500 years at that point, so their situation was very similar to current Catalonia.
• linuxftw 7y ago
  Political independence for a minority group will never be allowed. The political boundaries drawn 70-150 years ago must remain perpetually.
  • analpaper 7y ago
    "perpetually" lol
  • avar 7y ago
    Montenegro, Slovakia and a long list of other countries would like a word with you[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_da...
    • rossdavidh 7y ago
      One major difference between the former Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, is that in the latter I am led to believe that a majority of the public wanted to stay one country. The split seems to have been a way to create more posts for national elites. Ordinary Czechs and Slovaks who I have talked to (admittedly a very small and anecdotally collected group) don't seem to have had a problem with staying part of Czechoslovakia. In the former Yugoslavia I have no direct knowledge of anyone's opinions on the matter, but I am led to believe that a majority of several of the new countries was solidly in favor of splitting up.
      • levosmetalo 7y ago
        In former Yugoslavio the split is again "enforced" or "allowed" based on the arbitrary criteria from the past. The only "rule" here were "rule of armed force" and "interest of the mighty". Some ethnic group were allowed to have their right to decide in which country they want to live, some never got that right. In the end that injustice is what led to the whole bloody conflict.
    • nostrademons 7y ago
      I'd read the grandparent post as sarcasm, but perhaps Poe's Law strikes again.
• raincom 7y ago
  The foundation of laws is coercive. It is one thing to sell the third world counties that countries like USA are based on rule of law. Since laws are coercive, whoever has the power (both legal and police) can jail secession leaders.
• acoye 7y ago
  Where is Calexit now btw?
  • gnulinux 7y ago
    Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_California#Polling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_California#Polling Roughly 60% to 70% say "No". So, it's unlikely to happen any time soon.
    • repolfx 7y ago
      Watch out for that assumption. I believe at the end of 2015, a few months before the Brexit referendum, about 70% of people were indicating they'd vote remain in polls. That's the only reason Cameron and the rest of the Remain-supporting political class allowed a referendum at all: they were sure they were going to win. Turns out that intense discussion, debate and political campaigning can change voter's minds. That's the point of it in fact. Who knew?
  • arpa 7y ago
    Same place Scotland separation is, except perhaps that now Scots probably think they were wrong to vote to stay.
  • CorruptedArc 7y ago
    California is more likely to split into multiple states than it is to succeed.
• nostrademons 7y ago
  I think separatist movements will be the trend in an increasing number of regions. The reason many present nation-states exist is so that in the era of industrial war, outlying eras didn't get rolled by their more technologically advanced, more productive neighbors. Or alternatively, because they did get rolled by their neighbors and are now part of the conquering nation-state. With the world being unipolar for the last 30 years and that sole superpower being seemingly incapable of winning wars for the last 20, many minority groups are thinking that's a bad bargain and they'd rather trade security for self-determination.
  • wcarron 7y ago
    > that sole superpower being seemingly incapable of winning wars for the last 20 Is it not obvious, at this point, that "winning" the wars are not the goal? That the wars are used as pretense for endless military presence to serve geopolitical goals?
    • rudolfwinestock 7y ago
      In this regard, the late Jerry Pournelle had this to say about the Vietnam War. http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/mail-new-technology-climate-air-supremacy-health-advice-putin-and-more/ http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/mail-new-technology... I recall in a debate with Allard Lowenstein back in those days, he said “Jerry, you want to win this and get out. I just want to get out. But your friends there “—indicating the Secretary of Defense —“want to lose it and stay in.” I admit to being silenced. I didn’t have the minutes to give a lecture on how to win a war of attrition when it is part of a strategy of containment, and I am not sure I understood the situation that well in 1968 anyway.
    • nostrademons 7y ago
      Obvious to me, irrelevant to the groups targeted by these wars. In the WW2-era, the stakes were literal annihilation: a number of minority groups were specifically targeted for extermination by the belligerent powers, and many others were occupied under threat of extermination. Today, the stakes are that you face random drone strikes and your weddings get blown up. But there's nothing you can do about this: instead of "if you accept our rule, we'll let you live", it's "we're not interested in ruling you, die anyway". When wars are fought to make a point rather than to win, and that point has nothing to do with you, they're not going to change your behavior. So great powers and separatist/extremist groups exist in symbiosis, with each constructing and reinforcing the other in the absence of an external reason for their existence.
• naringas 7y ago
  what does this have to do with hacker news, technology, computers, or science? these are off-topic political news. edit to paste the relevant guidelines: > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
  • ryanlol 7y ago
    You’ve been here since 2007, you know HN better than this. Please don’t even start. E: Yeah, I get that I’m going to be downvoted as this political cause is not as popular as HK, but this is regular HN content.
  • Loughla 7y ago
    Politics and the world climate have no impact on technology, computers, or science?
    • davidw 7y ago
      One argument for keeping politics out is this: politics are way more important than most of what we post here. If they allow it, it would dominate the site.
      • arpa 7y ago
        A very good point!
    • k1e 7y ago
      Protests in Catalonia against referendum trial verdict have little to no impact on technology, computers or science.
  • arpa 7y ago
    And china, hk and blizzard aren't?
    • 7y ago
• enriquto 7y ago
  Barcelona airport is blocked! Finally we catalans seem to have found some blood in our veins! Sadly the catalan establishment will try to defuse the situation, they are quite a bunch of cowards. Hoping we can be as strong and deterimned as the hongkongers.
  • ryanlol 7y ago
    Talking to locals, most seem to expect this to last for a while. Seems like a bad time for Madrid to move like this, HK protests have been in the news for months and will probably inspire many. E: Can’t reply below because of ratelimit, but I specifically mean tactics here. It’s no coincidence everyone immediately rushed to the airport.
    • capableweb 7y ago
      Maybe the HK protests were inspired by the Catalans (probably not) but this has been brewing for a long time and Madrid has been acting this way for quite some time now.
      • DangerousPie 7y ago
        People in HK have been protesting since long before the Catalan separatist movement of the last few years.
        • capableweb 7y ago
          Some in Catalonia has been against the centralization of Spanish states since they were all folded into one state (1716) while Hong-Kong at it's earliest was created 1842 if I'm looking at the right details. If we look at when an actual movement existed for Catalan Indepdendence, it was formed 1922 (Estat Català). Granted Hong-Kong wasn't really transfered until 1997, it seems unlikely Hong-Kongers have fought for independence for longer than Catalonia. But in the end, there are no winners or losers here, only freedom fighters.
  • GonzaloQuero 7y ago
• flexie 7y ago
  Please remember that only part of the Catalan population participated in the referendum - mainly the ones that wanted to secede. The result was a huge majority according to Catalan authorities but turnout was merely 40-something percent. It's widely understood that voters that wanted to remain didn't participate. It is highly questionable whether the independence movement has even 50 percent support. Indications are that the support hovers around 40-something percent. It was highest in 2013, where it reached 55 percent. Please notice that this is not close to the super majority which is normally required for constitutional changes in most democracies.
  • JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    That's a pretty self-serving argument. Resorting to the 'silent majority' to justify disregarding democracy is not very...democratic. The way Catalan folk showed what they think on this subject, was by voting. That's pretty fundamental.
    • iagovar 7y ago
      That's not self-serving argument, it's just plain true. Most of those who didn't support independence simply didn't vote. Parties against this movement sent this message to their voters. It seems that only a slice from the non-supporters from the left showed up to vote.
      • JoeAltmaier 7y ago
        That sounds like you abdicated your part in the decision, then? How is democracy to work, if the parties see 'not voting' as some sort of super-vote? Next time, I humbly suggest everyone vote, and have their voice heard.
        • rumanator 7y ago
          > That sounds like you abdicated your part in the decision, then? Given that the so called decision was ripe with voting fraud (I mean, separatists storing voting ballots at home?) then the process actually has nothing to do with deciding and everything to do with a Putin-istic imposition of a policy hidden with a thin façade of an election.
• bwidlar 7y ago
  Please, if you dont know about the catalonia problem directly, beware of the separatist propaganda. Its known they spend a lot of public money in media. For example, Julian Assange and Yoko Ono were paid to write some twits pro independence agenda. (Just moving my comment from the dupe thread)
• hilbert42 7y ago
  It's nearly 100 years since the matter of Catalan independence was first mooted and 80 years since the end of the Spanish Civil War and matters surrounding the formation of an autonomous Catalonian State remain far from any real resolution. This just isn't just a political dispute that if given sufficient time will eventually dissipate, rather it's a fundamental one of cultural and language differences and the heavy-handedness of the Spanish state is only making matters worse. In a world where modern democracies everywhere are coming under increasing stress because state authorities are increasingly breaking the long-held covenants of trust that bind a state and its citizenry, these outrageous sentences only make a further mockery out of the law. Ultimately, cool heads soon need to resolve this stand-of or inevitably it will lead to further civil disobedience and possibly worse. And one must never forget that the last time this happened in 1936-'39 many hundreds of thousands died over the issue. In the modern Europe of today, borne out of the horrific chaos of WWII (and its prelude the Spanish Civil War), there should be no place where people should be subject to such authoritarian rule as they have been subjected to here. It's now time for Europe to pressure Spain to finally give the people of Catalonia both their autonomy and freedom. Catalonia has been in Spain's chains far long enough.
  • lostmsu 7y ago
    I was with you until the Catalonia freedom part. Even that unrecognized referendum did not show support for succession AFAIK.
    • icebraining 7y ago
      Freedom to choose.
  • iagovar 7y ago
    You have a point, but I think you miss when you say this was a product of authoritarian rule. Catalonia is basically like an US State. They have control of their education, healthcare, police etc, they have their own parliament, and so on. Catalonia already has autonomy. There has been a lot of mistakes on how to handle this situation but Catalan leaders made a calculated decision and forced the situation. You can express any idea, demonstrate, make your own party, but you it's not reasonable to expect that, if you not only break the law, but try to seize a large portion of a country and its resources, and just ignore the will of about half of the population in that very region, the spanish state does nothing. And I'm not even mentioning a shitload of things that are also going on in this issue that makes it way more complicated, typical in this multi-layered spanish power plays.
• aussieguy1234 7y ago
  Since the state will try to thwart any physical referendum vote using violence, perhaps this could be a good use case for a blockchain election. Secretly mail everyone a wallet address which they can use to vote on the blockchain. Without the threat of violence from the state, more people will vote.