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If home baking interests you, I have three suggestions: - Flour Water Salt Yeast by Ken Forkish - The Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart - The King A

by kop316 7y ago

If home baking interests you, I have three suggestions: - Flour Water Salt Yeast by Ken Forkish - The Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart - The King Arthur Flour Baker's Companion Having never baked anything complex before, those books have been amazing in learning how to bake. The bread is amazing and tastes as good as a small bakery. Ken Forkish also makes a book called "The Elements of Pizza" and shows you how to make Italian, NY, and several over styles of pizza too. That in my opinion is a must have book if you want to make Pizza.

resters 7y ago
Going to read those, but meanhile, any tips on proofing that you can offer here on HN?
- blue_devil 7y ago
  Keep your dough warm and cosy by wrapping it up. Conversely, if you live in a hot climate, put your dough in the fridge so as not to overproof it.
  - OJFord 7y ago
    Are fridges warmer in warmer climates? I'd have assumed the target temperature was the same.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kop316 7y ago
  Proofing? Control your temp and time if possible. Understand that a cooler temp will mean a longer proof. But also a longer proof gives you a more yeasty flavor. The first book flour water salt yeast was the first book I got, and they really help you learn how to bake yeast breads.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    Letting it sit in the fridge overnight works really well. It looks like nothing has happened but you get excellent over rise and a better taste.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  It took me somewhere around 10 tries until I baked my first perfect bread. My overall advice would be to knead really well, unless you're doing a no-knead bread. As to your question about proofing, be gentle, let it rest in a warm spot for a fair length of time - but not too long so as to let it collapse. A lot of this will depend on the weather where you are.
  - hansthehorse 7y ago
    I use the oven with the light on method. Works pretty well for me.
  - jillesvangurp 7y ago
    Some of the best advice here is that you need gluten strength and structure. You develop strength over time (by waiting) or by helping the dough by doing some kneading. The first proof is about building gluten strength; the second and final proof is about puffing the final gluten structure. Structuring is basically a series of stretches and folds that shape the bread and arrange the stretches of gluten. You need gluten strength to be able to do that. Bread without structure won't puff up properly and will be dense. Bread that is over proofed, loses it's structure (it collapses) because when the yeast runs out of food and starts breaking down your gluten. Indeed the temperature, water content, yeast strength & amount all factor into what will happen. So, adjust timings in recipes accordingly and use the fridge to your advantage to slow things down. A slow cold proof builds more taste than a quick warm one.
  - tasuki 7y ago
    I've baked no-knead bread before and I'm still confused - what exactly is the difference between bread that requires kneading and bread that doesn't require it?
    - MegaDeKay 7y ago
      The hallmarks of a no knead bread are primarily small amounts of yeast, long proofs, and high hydration. It is possible to convert one recipe to another, but you won't necessarily end up with the same result. For example, no knead develops its own gluten network as it rises, but the dough won't have the same strength as kneading five or ten minutes by hand will. So don't expect a nice tall sandwich bread out of a no knead recipe.
- xattt 7y ago
  I’ve used the Cooks Illustrated recommendation of 3 cups of boiled water in a bread pan in an oven on a lower rack to make a makeshift proof box.
  - ampulex 7y ago
    I use a variant of this: a 2-quart bowl with hot tap water sits in the microwave, which is small and relatively well insulated. I also use this when doing overnight pre-ferments during the winter.
- awinder 7y ago
  Many ovens have proof settings but they are basically just turning the light on and maybe running the circulator fan. That’s basically all I’ve needed for the minority of recipes I use that kinda require that. Most recipes don’t need anything other than time and a moderately temperatured kitchen, like the difference between 72°F and 80°F for most recipes just means a little extra time at the lower temperature. Basically what I’m saying is don’t buy a fancy proofing set up, maybe use the oven with the light bulb on, but probably just make sure you leave good time / wake up earlier ;-).
  - ip26 7y ago
    My oven heats up to about 170F on proof mode, and my kitchen is frequently 60°F in winter, so a proofer wound up being a good buy for me. But to be sure it was not needed for just getting started.
- hnick 7y ago
  It's not what most people think of as bread but I tried Nancy's Silverton's pizza dough and enjoyed it a lot (link below). We did a test and letting it sit in the fridge covered for 3-4 days definitely improved it over the suggested same-day use in the recipe. A longer, slower rise seems to be the trend if you can find the time, and the fridge ensures a consistent temperature. It also made it easier to work with, the recipe was quite wet (I've heard wetter is better for pizza dough but it was super sticky). https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/10/nancy-silvertons-pizza-dough-recipe.html https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/10/nancy-silvertons...
- joshvm 7y ago
  Being consistent helps, that way you know whether its a technique problem or under/over-proofing. I live in a poorly insulated house and baking bread over winter is a pain. I ended up making my own proofing box - way cheaper than buying an off-the-shelf chamber (some of which are $100+). Get an expanded polystyrene crate [1], the sort of things market traders use, a seedling mat and a relay thermostat. Wire together and you have a reasonably accurate climate controlled box. The box will be the most expensive thing, but I bought a very large one (too large, to be honest) and it was about £35. For a single loaf, you only need an interior volume enough to fit something a standard plastic food container [3]. A 4L container will barely do a 1kg batch, so size up. This is essentially the design that Noma use in their fermentation book [2]. Hint: you can see the design in the preview on Google Books (page 42). I set mine around 26-27C for bread, seems to work quite well. I've not bothered to measure how accurate the setpoint is. [1] https://hydropac.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/deluxe-1.jpg https://hydropac.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/deluxe-1.j... [2] https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Noma_Guide_to_Fermentation.html?id=-iJ9DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Noma_Guide_to_Fer... [3] https://www.nisbets.co.uk/cambro-square-polycarbonate-food-storage-container-5700ml/db010 https://www.nisbets.co.uk/cambro-square-polycarbonate-food-s...
jillesvangurp 7y ago
I also started out doing my own pizza dough. I used some youtube tutorials to work my up to baking my own sourdough breads. I've had some interesting failures along the way but I'm getting consistently good results now. Making your own bread is pretty easy, cheap, and very tasty. Using a decent quality flour helps. If you are interested in that stuff, Alex French Guy cooking has a no nonsense introduction to making your own sourdough up on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLURsDaOr8hWWSiMZBLGP2UEs8w3nQDTVY https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLURsDaOr8hWWSiMZBLGP2... There are a gazillion similar videos out there but this one is pretty informative and he's a bit of a food hacker.
- ImprovedSilence 7y ago
  I've found Jeff varasanos pizza recipe to be an excellent baker-nerd read, and is the basis for all my pizza (mis)adventures: http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm
jorblumesea 7y ago
Flour Water Salt Yeast is amazing. Transformed my view and understanding of bread.
Finnucane 7y ago
In addition to those books, Jeffrey Hamelman’s Bread is an excellent resource.
- MegaDeKay 7y ago
  Indeed. "Bread" is not just a book of recipes, but a valuable resource in learning how this stuff actually works. The breadth of techniques in the book is also much greater than most.
semi-extrinsic 7y ago
Maybe ~10 years ago, a friend bought Peter Reinhart's BBA and I got his "Whole Grain Breads" book. We baked lots, swapped recipes and experiences. I can strongly recommend both books; obviously the Whole Grain one is better if that's your cup of tea, etc. Regarding what TFA mentions of "gluten intolerance" - I think it's hard from a biochemistry perspective, based purely on what concentrations we're talking about, to support the hypothesis that the vital wheat gluten is a culprit. My personal theory is that it's a combination of fermentability of what you eat (which is obviously lower in "proper" bread) and mechanical properties that causes problems for people who are "gluten intolerant" but not celiac. (Just to clarify, by putting "gluten intolerant" into scare quotes, I don't mean to say it's not a real thing. Just that I personally don't think gluten is the actual bad guy.)
- kop316 7y ago
  I'll have to look the whole grains book up, thank you! The bread bakers apprentice is an awesome book, I look there for recipes for new breads.
  - atomi 7y ago
    If you're going to get one book on bread The Bread Baker's Apprentice is a good one. But if you get two, it should be The Taste of Bread - though it is more geared toward professional baking.
samstave 7y ago
reading the reviews I really want that book, but I don’t know why, I have never tried to actually make bread. That should be the first thing one should learn to cook. To make some bread.
- kop316 7y ago
  I encourage you to! I used to not really know how to cook, but my fiancée has been encouraging me to. Its like any skill. At first you just feel overwhelmed, but you gradually learn more and more how to cook and make better food. It's also really exciting to take something and make it from scratch. My only disappointment now when I cook is it makes eating out much more difficult. I get really disappointed when I go eat something that I know I could have made better.
yhager 7y ago
Tartine by Chad Robertson was THE book for me. It took me from so-so sourdough bread, to amazing and consistent one that constantly gets praise and is a pleasure every time.
- shalmanese 7y ago
  The video he did for Bon Appetit is masterful: https://youtu.be/U4dyWZZVeWI https://youtu.be/U4dyWZZVeWI
ryanwaggoner 7y ago
I heartily second the recommendation for both of Forkish's books. I picked them up last summer, based on a comment here on HN. Getting my first decent loaf took a few tries, but now I bake all of our bread, whether artisanal or just sandwich bread. I usually bake with my 4-year-old daughter, and I've also been baking more desserts as well, for which I often use recipes from King Arthur Flour or Cook's Illustrated. Just made cinnamon rolls the other day. We also make pizzas every month or two, for which I can't recommend a pizza steel highly enough (unless you're lucky enough to have a home pizza oven that can reach 900 degrees).
elbasti 7y ago
FWSY is a great introduction to bread baking, but I think it's important to move beyond it pretty quickly. I find it quite joyless. As an example, there's a recipe that calls for 3/16th teaspoons of yeast. Why didn't he just write 1/4 tsp? There is no way that 1/16ths of a teaspoon make any sort of difference given all the other factors at play. This kind of faux precision abounds in the book and can make the activity pretty stressful. It's a great introduction to bread baking, but once you get the hang of things you realize the precision he requires in his recipes is simply not called for. You can bake great bread in less time, or more time, or with cooler water, or warmer water of whatever--and have more fun doing it. (Also, his sourdough recipe is criminally wasteful). To anyone trying to get into bread: Definitely use FWSY to get a better "feel" for dough, but as soon as you do I suggest you leave it behind. Have fun. Tartine is a great second book.
- heelix 7y ago
  You get goofy measurements like that when someone takes the time to measure what a dash of this, a pinch of that, and a tad of something else into a non-eyeballed, quantifiable amounts. And yes, some times you have to be exact, sometimes... not so much. Cooking is organic chemistry. :P
  - zb 7y ago
    You also get them when someone who is baking commercial quantities of bread in a batch has to scale their recipe down for a home baker who can't physically bake, let alone eat, that much. Bread recipes are designed to scale up and down, so at some point having 25% more of some ingredient could definitely make a difference.
  - MegaDeKay 7y ago
    No, you get goofy measurements like these converting weights / baker's percentages to volume. Yeasts are one thing, but salt is much worse. You can get roughly twice as much salt per volume in table salt vs. common kosher salts. I have a jeweler's / drug dealer scale that can weigh small amounts very accurately. If I scale a loaf up or down, I have complete confidence in a repeatable result. Baking is not like other types of cooking where you can adjust as you go.
asciident 7y ago
Could you help me reverse engineering a bread I had, because I have no idea how to search for this. I had some grey-brown colored bread (looked like dinner rolls) in Greece that tasted so much more "real" than any American fancy bread I have had. It was firstly uniformly dry, like it sucked the moisture out of my mouth. Then it was very earthy, making my memories of american bread feel like they had sugar in it; this bread tasted like a fragrant earthy rock. Yet it was easy to eat, did not cut/scratch my mouth. What kind of recipe/process goes into making bread like that? I may be exaggerating a bit, but I do remember this was a very unique taste and feel.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kensai 7y ago
  Pita?
- elbasti 7y ago
  Ah. You're looking for "rusk". Google "Greek rusks" and you might find something that approximates the shadow of what you had.

by kop316 7y ago

resters 7y ago

Going to read those, but meanhile, any tips on proofing that you can offer here on HN?

blue_devil 7y ago
Keep your dough warm and cosy by wrapping it up. Conversely, if you live in a hot climate, put your dough in the fridge so as not to overproof it.
- OJFord 7y ago
  Are fridges warmer in warmer climates? I'd have assumed the target temperature was the same.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kop316 7y ago
Proofing? Control your temp and time if possible. Understand that a cooler temp will mean a longer proof. But also a longer proof gives you a more yeasty flavor. The first book flour water salt yeast was the first book I got, and they really help you learn how to bake yeast breads.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  Letting it sit in the fridge overnight works really well. It looks like nothing has happened but you get excellent over rise and a better taste.
throwaway8879 7y ago
It took me somewhere around 10 tries until I baked my first perfect bread. My overall advice would be to knead really well, unless you're doing a no-knead bread. As to your question about proofing, be gentle, let it rest in a warm spot for a fair length of time - but not too long so as to let it collapse. A lot of this will depend on the weather where you are.
- hansthehorse 7y ago
  I use the oven with the light on method. Works pretty well for me.
- jillesvangurp 7y ago
  Some of the best advice here is that you need gluten strength and structure. You develop strength over time (by waiting) or by helping the dough by doing some kneading. The first proof is about building gluten strength; the second and final proof is about puffing the final gluten structure. Structuring is basically a series of stretches and folds that shape the bread and arrange the stretches of gluten. You need gluten strength to be able to do that. Bread without structure won't puff up properly and will be dense. Bread that is over proofed, loses it's structure (it collapses) because when the yeast runs out of food and starts breaking down your gluten. Indeed the temperature, water content, yeast strength & amount all factor into what will happen. So, adjust timings in recipes accordingly and use the fridge to your advantage to slow things down. A slow cold proof builds more taste than a quick warm one.
- tasuki 7y ago
  I've baked no-knead bread before and I'm still confused - what exactly is the difference between bread that requires kneading and bread that doesn't require it?
  - MegaDeKay 7y ago
    The hallmarks of a no knead bread are primarily small amounts of yeast, long proofs, and high hydration. It is possible to convert one recipe to another, but you won't necessarily end up with the same result. For example, no knead develops its own gluten network as it rises, but the dough won't have the same strength as kneading five or ten minutes by hand will. So don't expect a nice tall sandwich bread out of a no knead recipe.
xattt 7y ago
I’ve used the Cooks Illustrated recommendation of 3 cups of boiled water in a bread pan in an oven on a lower rack to make a makeshift proof box.
- ampulex 7y ago
  I use a variant of this: a 2-quart bowl with hot tap water sits in the microwave, which is small and relatively well insulated. I also use this when doing overnight pre-ferments during the winter.
awinder 7y ago
Many ovens have proof settings but they are basically just turning the light on and maybe running the circulator fan. That’s basically all I’ve needed for the minority of recipes I use that kinda require that. Most recipes don’t need anything other than time and a moderately temperatured kitchen, like the difference between 72°F and 80°F for most recipes just means a little extra time at the lower temperature. Basically what I’m saying is don’t buy a fancy proofing set up, maybe use the oven with the light bulb on, but probably just make sure you leave good time / wake up earlier ;-).
- ip26 7y ago
  My oven heats up to about 170F on proof mode, and my kitchen is frequently 60°F in winter, so a proofer wound up being a good buy for me. But to be sure it was not needed for just getting started.
hnick 7y ago
It's not what most people think of as bread but I tried Nancy's Silverton's pizza dough and enjoyed it a lot (link below). We did a test and letting it sit in the fridge covered for 3-4 days definitely improved it over the suggested same-day use in the recipe. A longer, slower rise seems to be the trend if you can find the time, and the fridge ensures a consistent temperature. It also made it easier to work with, the recipe was quite wet (I've heard wetter is better for pizza dough but it was super sticky). https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/10/nancy-silvertons-pizza-dough-recipe.html https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/10/nancy-silvertons...
joshvm 7y ago
Being consistent helps, that way you know whether its a technique problem or under/over-proofing. I live in a poorly insulated house and baking bread over winter is a pain. I ended up making my own proofing box - way cheaper than buying an off-the-shelf chamber (some of which are $100+). Get an expanded polystyrene crate [1], the sort of things market traders use, a seedling mat and a relay thermostat. Wire together and you have a reasonably accurate climate controlled box. The box will be the most expensive thing, but I bought a very large one (too large, to be honest) and it was about £35. For a single loaf, you only need an interior volume enough to fit something a standard plastic food container [3]. A 4L container will barely do a 1kg batch, so size up. This is essentially the design that Noma use in their fermentation book [2]. Hint: you can see the design in the preview on Google Books (page 42). I set mine around 26-27C for bread, seems to work quite well. I've not bothered to measure how accurate the setpoint is. [1] https://hydropac.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/deluxe-1.jpg https://hydropac.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/deluxe-1.j... [2] https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Noma_Guide_to_Fermentation.html?id=-iJ9DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Noma_Guide_to_Fer... [3] https://www.nisbets.co.uk/cambro-square-polycarbonate-food-storage-container-5700ml/db010 https://www.nisbets.co.uk/cambro-square-polycarbonate-food-s...

jillesvangurp 7y ago

I also started out doing my own pizza dough. I used some youtube tutorials to work my up to baking my own sourdough breads. I've had some interesting failures along the way but I'm getting consistently good results now. Making your own bread is pretty easy, cheap, and very tasty. Using a decent quality flour helps. If you are interested in that stuff, Alex French Guy cooking has a no nonsense introduction to making your own sourdough up on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLURsDaOr8hWWSiMZBLGP2UEs8w3nQDTVY https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLURsDaOr8hWWSiMZBLGP2... There are a gazillion similar videos out there but this one is pretty informative and he's a bit of a food hacker.

ImprovedSilence 7y ago
I've found Jeff varasanos pizza recipe to be an excellent baker-nerd read, and is the basis for all my pizza (mis)adventures: http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

jorblumesea 7y ago

Flour Water Salt Yeast is amazing. Transformed my view and understanding of bread.

Finnucane 7y ago

In addition to those books, Jeffrey Hamelman’s Bread is an excellent resource.

MegaDeKay 7y ago
Indeed. "Bread" is not just a book of recipes, but a valuable resource in learning how this stuff actually works. The breadth of techniques in the book is also much greater than most.

semi-extrinsic 7y ago

Maybe ~10 years ago, a friend bought Peter Reinhart's BBA and I got his "Whole Grain Breads" book. We baked lots, swapped recipes and experiences. I can strongly recommend both books; obviously the Whole Grain one is better if that's your cup of tea, etc. Regarding what TFA mentions of "gluten intolerance" - I think it's hard from a biochemistry perspective, based purely on what concentrations we're talking about, to support the hypothesis that the vital wheat gluten is a culprit. My personal theory is that it's a combination of fermentability of what you eat (which is obviously lower in "proper" bread) and mechanical properties that causes problems for people who are "gluten intolerant" but not celiac. (Just to clarify, by putting "gluten intolerant" into scare quotes, I don't mean to say it's not a real thing. Just that I personally don't think gluten is the actual bad guy.)

kop316 7y ago
I'll have to look the whole grains book up, thank you! The bread bakers apprentice is an awesome book, I look there for recipes for new breads.
- atomi 7y ago
  If you're going to get one book on bread The Bread Baker's Apprentice is a good one. But if you get two, it should be The Taste of Bread - though it is more geared toward professional baking.

samstave 7y ago

reading the reviews I really want that book, but I don’t know why, I have never tried to actually make bread. That should be the first thing one should learn to cook. To make some bread.

kop316 7y ago
I encourage you to! I used to not really know how to cook, but my fiancée has been encouraging me to. Its like any skill. At first you just feel overwhelmed, but you gradually learn more and more how to cook and make better food. It's also really exciting to take something and make it from scratch. My only disappointment now when I cook is it makes eating out much more difficult. I get really disappointed when I go eat something that I know I could have made better.

yhager 7y ago

Tartine by Chad Robertson was THE book for me. It took me from so-so sourdough bread, to amazing and consistent one that constantly gets praise and is a pleasure every time.

shalmanese 7y ago
The video he did for Bon Appetit is masterful: https://youtu.be/U4dyWZZVeWI https://youtu.be/U4dyWZZVeWI

ryanwaggoner 7y ago

I heartily second the recommendation for both of Forkish's books. I picked them up last summer, based on a comment here on HN. Getting my first decent loaf took a few tries, but now I bake all of our bread, whether artisanal or just sandwich bread. I usually bake with my 4-year-old daughter, and I've also been baking more desserts as well, for which I often use recipes from King Arthur Flour or Cook's Illustrated. Just made cinnamon rolls the other day. We also make pizzas every month or two, for which I can't recommend a pizza steel highly enough (unless you're lucky enough to have a home pizza oven that can reach 900 degrees).

elbasti 7y ago

FWSY is a great introduction to bread baking, but I think it's important to move beyond it pretty quickly. I find it quite joyless. As an example, there's a recipe that calls for 3/16th teaspoons of yeast. Why didn't he just write 1/4 tsp? There is no way that 1/16ths of a teaspoon make any sort of difference given all the other factors at play. This kind of faux precision abounds in the book and can make the activity pretty stressful. It's a great introduction to bread baking, but once you get the hang of things you realize the precision he requires in his recipes is simply not called for. You can bake great bread in less time, or more time, or with cooler water, or warmer water of whatever--and have more fun doing it. (Also, his sourdough recipe is criminally wasteful). To anyone trying to get into bread: Definitely use FWSY to get a better "feel" for dough, but as soon as you do I suggest you leave it behind. Have fun. Tartine is a great second book.

heelix 7y ago
You get goofy measurements like that when someone takes the time to measure what a dash of this, a pinch of that, and a tad of something else into a non-eyeballed, quantifiable amounts. And yes, some times you have to be exact, sometimes... not so much. Cooking is organic chemistry. :P
- zb 7y ago
  You also get them when someone who is baking commercial quantities of bread in a batch has to scale their recipe down for a home baker who can't physically bake, let alone eat, that much. Bread recipes are designed to scale up and down, so at some point having 25% more of some ingredient could definitely make a difference.
- MegaDeKay 7y ago
  No, you get goofy measurements like these converting weights / baker's percentages to volume. Yeasts are one thing, but salt is much worse. You can get roughly twice as much salt per volume in table salt vs. common kosher salts. I have a jeweler's / drug dealer scale that can weigh small amounts very accurately. If I scale a loaf up or down, I have complete confidence in a repeatable result. Baking is not like other types of cooking where you can adjust as you go.

asciident 7y ago

Could you help me reverse engineering a bread I had, because I have no idea how to search for this. I had some grey-brown colored bread (looked like dinner rolls) in Greece that tasted so much more "real" than any American fancy bread I have had. It was firstly uniformly dry, like it sucked the moisture out of my mouth. Then it was very earthy, making my memories of american bread feel like they had sugar in it; this bread tasted like a fragrant earthy rock. Yet it was easy to eat, did not cut/scratch my mouth. What kind of recipe/process goes into making bread like that? I may be exaggerating a bit, but I do remember this was a very unique taste and feel.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kensai 7y ago
Pita?
elbasti 7y ago
Ah. You're looking for "rusk". Google "Greek rusks" and you might find something that approximates the shadow of what you had.