5 ms·

Author seems overly dismissive of the sequels. While they aren’t as great as the first, many of them are still very good books with interesting ideas. The stuff

Author seems overly dismissive of the sequels. While they aren’t as great as the first, many of them are still very good books with interesting ideas. The stuff written by others (not Frank Herbert) on the other hand, does seem to be dreck based on my sampling.

tedivm 7y ago
The biggest flaw with the sequels is that they end up not ending- in the same way the Dune Messiah was a setup for Children of Dune, it seems that Heretics and Chapterhouse were leading up to the seventh book that Herbert died before writing.
- geargrinder 7y ago
  His son Brian and Kevin J Anderson did write the last installment based on detailed notes from Frank Herbert, so at least the story is complete. While their writing is not as brilliant as Frank Herbert's, the books they wrote, mainly the prequels, have helped me understand just how big the original vision was and have helped me enjoy the sequels more. God Emperor is truly as masterpiece, but it took a couple of reads, and the sequels, for me to appreciate it more.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    Correction: Brian and KJA had access to detailed notes from Frank Herbert, and used none of them in favor of KJA's "improvements" to the Dune mythos. The same way KJA "improved" Star Wars. His wife, incidentally the editor-in-chief of the publishing imprint that then owned the publishing rights to the Star Wars and Dune literary universes, is to blame for unleashing his word vomit on mankind.
    - etiam 7y ago
      I've been yearning to read those notes for decades now. Any idea of their situation? Is there a chance they'll ever be released?
      - stevekemp 7y ago
        There seems almost zero chance that the notes will be released. Brian has been increasingly adament about it, largely because a lot of people are vocal about suspecting they don't exist. (I personally do believe that some notes were left, but I suspect they were not complete, and were utterly ignored by Brian & Kevin. Because they is no explanation which makes more sense. There's no way he would have tied up with series by referencing characters never-before introduced from before the previous books.)
        disgruntledphd2 7y ago
        I dunno, when you re-read Heretics and Chapter House after knowing how it ends, you can see some set-ups for the ultimate big-bad. And Sonia's vision in God emperor does also link up. So, maybe? I lean towards thinking there were notes myself, as I can't see anyone making up that ending de-novo.
        stevekemp 7y ago
        I can kinda see the argument, but the fact that the Butlerian Jihad was so rarely referenced in any detail makes me skeptical that the long-overthrown machines could arrive spontaneously and be the big-bad. It seemed to me that the two figures in Duncans visions were going to become important, but they'd be rogue/evolved/advanced face-dancers rather than representatives of the machine intelligence. I guess we'll never know for sure unless the notes are published.
        disgruntledphd2 7y ago
        Seriously, Sonia's vision in God-Emperor is of humans being hunted down by machines - this is what the Golden Path was to avoid. So, I'm inclined to err on the side of the notes existing and mentioning machines.
        gamblor956 7y ago
        Siona's visions were about the danger of presience and the need for mankind to become free from those who would use fate/predestination as a means to control mankind. Avoiding the predestination paradox was literally the reason Leto created her. Given the lengths that Frank Herbert went to avoid having computers in Dune, it would not make sense for his big bad to be a computer revealed in the last few pages of the series, especially when his big bad was always intended to be Destiny.
  - stormking 7y ago
    Oh yeah, the story about the "detailled notes" in a box ... I wouldn't believe any of this. The prequels are basically Star Wars books set in the Dune universe.
apocalypstyx 7y ago
As with the Matrix, the main problem with the sequels is that they deconstruct the basic geek power fantasies set up at the start.
- 609venezia 7y ago
  Well said. I didn't get them when I was younger and still had the power fantasies. Now "I've loved you for 5,000 years" is what really gets me.
- throw_m239339 7y ago
  No, the main problem with the sequels is that they add nothing to the lore. The first 2 books have a very detailed description of Dune universe and Arrakis and all the political factions. The rest of the saga brings nothing new or really interesting. They feel derivative. Nothing in the sequels have not been said in the first 2 books. So they felt already uninspired. It gets even worse after God Emperor of Dune, Herbert clearly had nothing more tosay after that. Dune isn't a "geek power fantasy" Isekai style, it's a cautionary tale against blind faith in leaders and religion. It's made clear from the start that the protagonist, Paul, isn't a hero, as him and his mother manipulate the fremens to gain their trust.
kyriakos 7y ago
The prequels written by his son and Co are not as great but they are easier material to be converted into movie format which will attract more people to the story. Unfortunately the original books of Frank Herbert are really hard to convert into movie / TV format and that's why Dune never became as popular as star wars. Part of the reason is the inner narrative and attention to details like facial expressions. Actually what makes the books great is what's stopping them from becoming mainstream.
terlisimo 7y ago
When I first read Dune and sequels in my teens, I too thought that the later books were kind of boring. I have re-read it in my late 30s and now I actually favor the later novels. I consider all 6 novels as one work. The deconstruction of a hero (Paul) was in my opinon necessary and logical progression of the story arc. I think Herbert wanted to say that heroes inevitably end up being harmful to the society. My opinion is that if the sequels were written in the same manner as the first book, we'd end up with an excellent but still run-of-the mill epic saga like Star Wars, LoTR etc. In my view, Herbert's Dune stands above all precisely because it's not just another (great) SF novel. Herbert said he set out to write a book on philosophy and religion, but didn't want to approach the subject academically since it would probably be only read by scholars. He wanted to reach a broader audience and so he wrapped his ideas into science fiction so it's more easy to swallow for the average bookworm.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Author seems overly dismissive of the sequels. The author admits to having given up after the fourth book, God Emporer of Dune, which is, to be fair, a fairly radical shift from the original trilogy. I can see it putting off someone deeply invested in the original.
- shantly 7y ago
  I read on but for me the story was over at the end of God Emperor, which felt like the end of the core arc of the first four books. The rest gets harder to follow—like other Frank Herbert novels I’ve tried to read—and doesn’t provide the same motivation. The characters especially just do nothing for me, past God Emperor.

tedivm 7y ago

The biggest flaw with the sequels is that they end up not ending- in the same way the Dune Messiah was a setup for Children of Dune, it seems that Heretics and Chapterhouse were leading up to the seventh book that Herbert died before writing.

geargrinder 7y ago
His son Brian and Kevin J Anderson did write the last installment based on detailed notes from Frank Herbert, so at least the story is complete. While their writing is not as brilliant as Frank Herbert's, the books they wrote, mainly the prequels, have helped me understand just how big the original vision was and have helped me enjoy the sequels more. God Emperor is truly as masterpiece, but it took a couple of reads, and the sequels, for me to appreciate it more.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  Correction: Brian and KJA had access to detailed notes from Frank Herbert, and used none of them in favor of KJA's "improvements" to the Dune mythos. The same way KJA "improved" Star Wars. His wife, incidentally the editor-in-chief of the publishing imprint that then owned the publishing rights to the Star Wars and Dune literary universes, is to blame for unleashing his word vomit on mankind.
  - etiam 7y ago
    I've been yearning to read those notes for decades now. Any idea of their situation? Is there a chance they'll ever be released?
    - stevekemp 7y ago
      There seems almost zero chance that the notes will be released. Brian has been increasingly adament about it, largely because a lot of people are vocal about suspecting they don't exist. (I personally do believe that some notes were left, but I suspect they were not complete, and were utterly ignored by Brian & Kevin. Because they is no explanation which makes more sense. There's no way he would have tied up with series by referencing characters never-before introduced from before the previous books.)
      - disgruntledphd2 7y ago
        I dunno, when you re-read Heretics and Chapter House after knowing how it ends, you can see some set-ups for the ultimate big-bad. And Sonia's vision in God emperor does also link up. So, maybe? I lean towards thinking there were notes myself, as I can't see anyone making up that ending de-novo.
        stevekemp 7y ago
        I can kinda see the argument, but the fact that the Butlerian Jihad was so rarely referenced in any detail makes me skeptical that the long-overthrown machines could arrive spontaneously and be the big-bad. It seemed to me that the two figures in Duncans visions were going to become important, but they'd be rogue/evolved/advanced face-dancers rather than representatives of the machine intelligence. I guess we'll never know for sure unless the notes are published.
        disgruntledphd2 7y ago
        Seriously, Sonia's vision in God-Emperor is of humans being hunted down by machines - this is what the Golden Path was to avoid. So, I'm inclined to err on the side of the notes existing and mentioning machines.
        gamblor956 7y ago
        Siona's visions were about the danger of presience and the need for mankind to become free from those who would use fate/predestination as a means to control mankind. Avoiding the predestination paradox was literally the reason Leto created her. Given the lengths that Frank Herbert went to avoid having computers in Dune, it would not make sense for his big bad to be a computer revealed in the last few pages of the series, especially when his big bad was always intended to be Destiny.
- stormking 7y ago
  Oh yeah, the story about the "detailled notes" in a box ... I wouldn't believe any of this. The prequels are basically Star Wars books set in the Dune universe.

apocalypstyx 7y ago

As with the Matrix, the main problem with the sequels is that they deconstruct the basic geek power fantasies set up at the start.

609venezia 7y ago
Well said. I didn't get them when I was younger and still had the power fantasies. Now "I've loved you for 5,000 years" is what really gets me.
throw_m239339 7y ago
No, the main problem with the sequels is that they add nothing to the lore. The first 2 books have a very detailed description of Dune universe and Arrakis and all the political factions. The rest of the saga brings nothing new or really interesting. They feel derivative. Nothing in the sequels have not been said in the first 2 books. So they felt already uninspired. It gets even worse after God Emperor of Dune, Herbert clearly had nothing more tosay after that. Dune isn't a "geek power fantasy" Isekai style, it's a cautionary tale against blind faith in leaders and religion. It's made clear from the start that the protagonist, Paul, isn't a hero, as him and his mother manipulate the fremens to gain their trust.

kyriakos 7y ago

The prequels written by his son and Co are not as great but they are easier material to be converted into movie format which will attract more people to the story. Unfortunately the original books of Frank Herbert are really hard to convert into movie / TV format and that's why Dune never became as popular as star wars. Part of the reason is the inner narrative and attention to details like facial expressions. Actually what makes the books great is what's stopping them from becoming mainstream.

terlisimo 7y ago

When I first read Dune and sequels in my teens, I too thought that the later books were kind of boring. I have re-read it in my late 30s and now I actually favor the later novels. I consider all 6 novels as one work. The deconstruction of a hero (Paul) was in my opinon necessary and logical progression of the story arc. I think Herbert wanted to say that heroes inevitably end up being harmful to the society. My opinion is that if the sequels were written in the same manner as the first book, we'd end up with an excellent but still run-of-the mill epic saga like Star Wars, LoTR etc. In my view, Herbert's Dune stands above all precisely because it's not just another (great) SF novel. Herbert said he set out to write a book on philosophy and religion, but didn't want to approach the subject academically since it would probably be only read by scholars. He wanted to reach a broader audience and so he wrapped his ideas into science fiction so it's more easy to swallow for the average bookworm.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Author seems overly dismissive of the sequels. The author admits to having given up after the fourth book, God Emporer of Dune, which is, to be fair, a fairly radical shift from the original trilogy. I can see it putting off someone deeply invested in the original.

shantly 7y ago
I read on but for me the story was over at the end of God Emperor, which felt like the end of the core arc of the first four books. The rest gets harder to follow—like other Frank Herbert novels I’ve tried to read—and doesn’t provide the same motivation. The characters especially just do nothing for me, past God Emperor.