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What is scary about this approach is that it tends to favor conservatism. Any change achieved politically can easily be dismissed as a moral fashion (immigrant'

by rocqua 7y ago

What is scary about this approach is that it tends to favor conservatism. Any change achieved politically can easily be dismissed as a moral fashion (immigrant's rights, racial equality being ideal, same-sex marriage, women's rights). This is much more of an issue when you use the methods outlined to argue against an idea. If instead you use these methods internally, this is less of an issue.

malandrew 7y ago
Neither conservatism nor progressivism is necessarily correct or better. Sometimes conservatism is worse because it preserves things that we should change for the better. Sometimes progressivism is worse because it doesn't fully understand why society arrived at a solution so progressives try to change things in a way they think is better but then there are all sorts of unintended consequences that turn out to be worse that what progressives were trying to change for the better. For example, at one time progressives were trying to end segregation and promote judging someone on the content of character and not the color of their skin while conservatives fought them on this. Now progressives are trying to reinstitute segregation and promoting the idea that people should be judged on skin color and not content of character while conservatives fight them on these changes.
- Tronno 7y ago
  "Now progressives are trying to reinstitute segregation and promoting the idea that people should be judged on skin color and not content of character while conservatives fight them on these changes." That's quite a statement. Could you go into more detail?
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    I believe they are referring to support for concepts like Black History Month or a Women In Engineering group being equivalent to "segregation".
    - ixtli 7y ago
      It’s amazing the lengths how reactionaries go to hide what they really mean. It’s most on display when we around and around entertaining their insane notions that acknowledging systemic racism is the actual racism. It’s shocking how often this argument is made.
  - username90 7y ago
    Progressives used to be pro blind hiring and objective criteria like tests. But after it turned out that blind hiring and objective criteria gets even less diversity than our current methods it flipped, and now conservatives wants blind hiring and objective criteria while progressives wants to pick people by gender and race.
    - goatinaboat 7y ago
      I don’t know why you’re being downvoted, this is an actual observable thing e.g. https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888?pfmredir=sm https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-...
dextralt 7y ago
in case you haven't noticed, progressives have long since moved on from the idea of "equality" of races and sexes.
- liara_k 7y ago
  According to whom? The propagandists of their political adversaries, I'd wager.
  - gruez 7y ago
    I'm guessing it's the shift for advocating for equality to advocating for diversity. eg. Harvard admissions where Asians and Whites have a handicap in an effort to increase diversity.
    - liara_k 7y ago
      Diversity e.g., in higher education admissions isn't just about what's fair for the students, it's also about what's best for the university and the students. Universities are naturally xenophillic--both in their desire to understand more about the world and in their desire to influence it. Exploration and openness to new experiences and ideas are also important intellectual values important to develop in students. All of these are enhanced with a diverse student body. As a more concrete example... $IVY_LEAGUE doesn't gain that much by having its average standard test score go from the 99th to the 99.5th percentile. From the university's perspective, it gains more by admitting students who spread the influence of the university's ideas, enrich and enlarge context in classroom discussions, etc...
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        > As a more concrete example... $IVY_LEAGUE doesn't gain that much by having its average standard test score go from the 99th to the 99.5th percentile. Assuming accurate tests and a normal distribution of scores, shouldn't that be approximately equivalent to going from the 80th to 90th percentile?
abvdasker 7y ago
Every time someone posts this article on HN -- it gets posted a couple times a year -- I have to roll my eyes. For me it's hard not to read this entire essay as a pseudointellectual dog whistle. Maybe criticism of P.G. on Hacker News is one of the Things You Can't Say. Whatever. Bring on the downvotes. P.G. comes across as either incredibly naive or deeply cynical. His writing is frustratingly coy -- he should just say that he's talking about political correctness but doesn't. There's a kind of cowardice in maintaining this sort of plausible deniability. He hides behind the "first rule of Fight Club" and won't reveal whatever conclusions he's reached through this process of considering taboos, which is concerning because it signals he is scared of the consequences of revealing his opinions. One then wonders, what is it that P.G. believes that he's too afraid to even say? It's also concerning that he doesn't seriously consider the relationship between ideas and power. Here are some things that he maybe should have thought about before writing this blog post: 1) What groups of people would the idea benefit? What groups would it harm? 2) Is the taboo idea similar to ideas held by a historically powerful group about a historically powerless group? 2) In considering whether a taboo idea might be true, do you, the thinker, have self-interest in it being true or not true? 3) Most importantly, if you're thinking in isolation about taboo ideas and adhere to PGs advice to never, ever talk about them, isn't it possible to arrive at wildly incorrect conclusions without outside input? Talking through ideas with others is what makes it possible to spot errors in reasoning. What better way to ensure your ideas remain unfalsifiable than to avoid talking to other people? Isn't this the very opposite of good science? P.G. is a pretty good venture capitalist and that's about it. If you're looking for intelligent cultural commentary or philosophy look elsewhere.

by rocqua 7y ago

malandrew 7y ago

Neither conservatism nor progressivism is necessarily correct or better. Sometimes conservatism is worse because it preserves things that we should change for the better. Sometimes progressivism is worse because it doesn't fully understand why society arrived at a solution so progressives try to change things in a way they think is better but then there are all sorts of unintended consequences that turn out to be worse that what progressives were trying to change for the better. For example, at one time progressives were trying to end segregation and promote judging someone on the content of character and not the color of their skin while conservatives fought them on this. Now progressives are trying to reinstitute segregation and promoting the idea that people should be judged on skin color and not content of character while conservatives fight them on these changes.

Tronno 7y ago
"Now progressives are trying to reinstitute segregation and promoting the idea that people should be judged on skin color and not content of character while conservatives fight them on these changes." That's quite a statement. Could you go into more detail?
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  I believe they are referring to support for concepts like Black History Month or a Women In Engineering group being equivalent to "segregation".
  - ixtli 7y ago
    It’s amazing the lengths how reactionaries go to hide what they really mean. It’s most on display when we around and around entertaining their insane notions that acknowledging systemic racism is the actual racism. It’s shocking how often this argument is made.
- username90 7y ago
  Progressives used to be pro blind hiring and objective criteria like tests. But after it turned out that blind hiring and objective criteria gets even less diversity than our current methods it flipped, and now conservatives wants blind hiring and objective criteria while progressives wants to pick people by gender and race.
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    I don’t know why you’re being downvoted, this is an actual observable thing e.g. https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888?pfmredir=sm https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-...

dextralt 7y ago

in case you haven't noticed, progressives have long since moved on from the idea of "equality" of races and sexes.

liara_k 7y ago
According to whom? The propagandists of their political adversaries, I'd wager.
- gruez 7y ago
  I'm guessing it's the shift for advocating for equality to advocating for diversity. eg. Harvard admissions where Asians and Whites have a handicap in an effort to increase diversity.
  - liara_k 7y ago
    Diversity e.g., in higher education admissions isn't just about what's fair for the students, it's also about what's best for the university and the students. Universities are naturally xenophillic--both in their desire to understand more about the world and in their desire to influence it. Exploration and openness to new experiences and ideas are also important intellectual values important to develop in students. All of these are enhanced with a diverse student body. As a more concrete example... $IVY_LEAGUE doesn't gain that much by having its average standard test score go from the 99th to the 99.5th percentile. From the university's perspective, it gains more by admitting students who spread the influence of the university's ideas, enrich and enlarge context in classroom discussions, etc...
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      > As a more concrete example... $IVY_LEAGUE doesn't gain that much by having its average standard test score go from the 99th to the 99.5th percentile. Assuming accurate tests and a normal distribution of scores, shouldn't that be approximately equivalent to going from the 80th to 90th percentile?

abvdasker 7y ago

Every time someone posts this article on HN -- it gets posted a couple times a year -- I have to roll my eyes. For me it's hard not to read this entire essay as a pseudointellectual dog whistle. Maybe criticism of P.G. on Hacker News is one of the Things You Can't Say. Whatever. Bring on the downvotes. P.G. comes across as either incredibly naive or deeply cynical. His writing is frustratingly coy -- he should just say that he's talking about political correctness but doesn't. There's a kind of cowardice in maintaining this sort of plausible deniability. He hides behind the "first rule of Fight Club" and won't reveal whatever conclusions he's reached through this process of considering taboos, which is concerning because it signals he is scared of the consequences of revealing his opinions. One then wonders, what is it that P.G. believes that he's too afraid to even say? It's also concerning that he doesn't seriously consider the relationship between ideas and power. Here are some things that he maybe should have thought about before writing this blog post: 1) What groups of people would the idea benefit? What groups would it harm? 2) Is the taboo idea similar to ideas held by a historically powerful group about a historically powerless group? 2) In considering whether a taboo idea might be true, do you, the thinker, have self-interest in it being true or not true? 3) Most importantly, if you're thinking in isolation about taboo ideas and adhere to PGs advice to never, ever talk about them, isn't it possible to arrive at wildly incorrect conclusions without outside input? Talking through ideas with others is what makes it possible to spot errors in reasoning. What better way to ensure your ideas remain unfalsifiable than to avoid talking to other people? Isn't this the very opposite of good science? P.G. is a pretty good venture capitalist and that's about it. If you're looking for intelligent cultural commentary or philosophy look elsewhere.