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Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp and Instagram Restricted in Southern Turkey

363 points by infodocket 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
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grenoire 7y ago
To add to this; Turkey has had a very turbulent past when it came to internet censorship. Politicians have been baffled at (and as such scared by) the speeds at which information spreads online, and have been actively attempting since then to include the internet in their crusade for media censorship. Also, Wikipedia has been blocked in Turkey for two years now (see the logo at https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anasayfa https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anasayfa - "being missed for two years"). It's just a miserable status quo... Savvier users can circumvent these censors just like anywhere else, but the peoples are powerless whether they can access information or not.
dopamean 7y ago
> Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp and Instagram Restricted in Southern Turkey It's kind of incredible how that head line are so terrifying. The only explanation for this is that people don't want information getting out of that area. It's so fucked up. Maybe this is a bit naive to say but I really hate that this is just how things are. We all know what's going to happen and there's nothing that can be done about it. It doesn't really seem like it'll ever change either.
- aerodog 7y ago
  We do? I don't know. I find we rarely know what's going to happen. In 2016 everyone had for weeks talked about how Aleppo was going to go up in flames. And in the end, it turned out to be an actual operation to rid the place of rebels and then they established order when the city fell. Maybe in these towns the same will happen. But it's hard to say "we all know what's going to happen."
  - sp332 7y ago
    This Aleppo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH6xRh6K7-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH6xRh6K7-4 (And yes the video is from RT but if you can find a more reputable source debunking it I'd like to see it.)
- plehoux 7y ago
  Wouldn't Starlink by Space X solve this? Authoritarian govs. would make it illegal to subscribe... but like VPNs it would be very hard to police, even harder.
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    Starlink is more vulnerable to governments than VPNs and is going to be much much more expensive.
    - yes_man 7y ago
      Big social media companies could offer an API that offers a list of IPs that serve the app and any data it needs from an unblocked source. Then if you're under oppression by a malevolent leadership that blocks a social media, it could be so that you only need to hook your Twitter or Facebook app to internet via Starlink for the millisecond it takes to fetch the unblocked IPs, and the app would be configured to automatically use those in blocked countries. Those new IPs got blocked? Just hit the API again with Starlink and get back to using normal internet. It could be default behavior for the apps in countries where they are blocked to do that if a Starlink connection is up. If a couple of bytes of information every now and then is too expensive to fetch with Starlink in poorer countries, it is too expensive to use for normal internet use for normal people anywhere on the planet. Since you are using normal internet except for fetching the IPs, you are not subject to government snooping or sabotage any more than you would be normally. It also would require normal people at maximum the same level of tech-savvyness as a VPN to just connect to Starlink for a second. Another key difference would be that a VPN requires you to reach the VPN server somehow, and the country can arbitrarily block cable traffic if they have the resources and will. Whether it's technically feasible for most VPNs is another question. But anyway, for Starlink... You would really need to wreck their satellite off the orbit or mess with their radiosignals to block it. Not that social media companies would do anything to piss off authoritarian leaders / oppressing governments. But they could if they thought it's right
      - therein 7y ago
        Censorship resistant DNS over Starlink could be pretty useful and cost effective.
- deleted 7y ago
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- 99052882514569 7y ago
  I mean, it's next to a war zone, with tons of military hardware moving about, preparing to enter fighting. It sounds like pretty reasonable counter-intelligence (not to mention counter-propaganda) move.
  - y-c-o-m-b 7y ago
    They did the same thing in 2017 during the anti-corruption protests in Turkey. This is just a means to prevent atrocities on behalf of Erdogan's government and the military from leaking out into the public sphere. EDIT: 2014 also: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26677134 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26677134 > This comes after PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan vowed to "wipe out Twitter" following damaging allegations of corruption in his inner circle.
  - throwyaway 7y ago
    Right now in Turkey criticizing the operation is considered "terrorist propaganda" (120+ persons already detained), as is reporting that there are victim among Syrian civilians (a few independent journalist already detained and released) any website/tv reporting negatively is being closed by the state TV watchdog. So it is not only about counter-intelligence.
    - 99052882514569 7y ago
      I'm not commenting on the war, the sides taking part in it, etc. I'm merely saying that muting social media in the vicinity of troop movement is a logical move by any government engaged in a war.
  - driverdan 7y ago
    Blocking sites like this is never reasonable.
    - 99052882514569 7y ago
      I disagree. Keeping your opponent in the 'fog of war' is a legitimate, reasonable military aim. In the olden days, radio/TV transmissions and newspaper publication was severely restricted during military operations. Today, those are largely irrelevant as news is spread on social media, so this block is the modern-era equivalent. Note how my argument does not depend on whether we're talking about a good war, bad war, just war, evil war, etc.
- thelittleone 7y ago
  It's disturbing that it's happening so often it's becoming a norm. I guess it's fair then for people to assume the worst. That the government is committing acts so heinous they can't allow them to be discussed.
- themagician 7y ago
  See, I don't mind it. Twitter and Facebook are HORRIBLE tools to rely on. They spread more wrong information than right information. If free speech is going to survive it will require open systems and responsible journalism. Twitter and Facebook are tools that promote neither. Bad information, I suppose, is better than no information… but damn have we regressed in a lot of ways.
  - JetSpiegel 7y ago
    This ban is not to keep the Kurds from receiving information, they know they are getting bombed when their houses blow up. It's to keep information out. To exfiltrate information, all the Social Media anti features are a plus.
- m-p-3 7y ago
  I hope some federated system like Mastodon picks up in popularity, it would make it harder to blacklist all instances and effectively blackhole the entire platform.
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  If they didn't want information getting out of that area perhaps they would block better. It seems they just want to block ordinary non-techie users from communicating this way.
postmarkman 7y ago
Time to do Mastodon and hope around servers of the fediverse!
- olah_1 7y ago
  Relevant Tweet: >Mastodon is proving to be a system so censorship resistant even its creators can't censor it. https://twitter.com/peterktodd/status/1147772867783929856 https://twitter.com/peterktodd/status/1147772867783929856 It seems like federation is actually more censorship resistant in some ways than fully distributed p2p systems. Because an ISP could block ports and things required for p2p connections, right?
  - Funes- 7y ago
    Wouldn't the authorities just keep blocking instances (i. e., servers)? I may be wrong, but I don't think a federated platform is censorship-resistant in any meaningful way.
    - olah_1 7y ago
      I suppose so... I really don't know. How do they find them when they're just over regular HTTP? Seems like it would be easier to find p2p traffic. But I don't know.
      - luckylion 7y ago
        If each instance is only used by a small number of users, it might not easily be identified, since the exchange of the platforms wouldn't be visible to Turkey's censors. I don't think this really helps as a means of suppressing information. Unless you block everything, the information will get out and once it's out of the region, you no longer have control. I believe it's mostly about soldiers carrying their cellphones around, posting on facebook when they are idle etc, and you don't want troop movements and staging grounds to be quite that public. "Hey guys, please no Facebook" doesn't work at a large scale, blocking those sites is much easier.
  - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
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alexro 7y ago
Through the whole history we don't know and will never know what's really happened/happening. Have you got an idea of how badly native population of America have been dealt with back then? DO you know what's happening in Kashmiri, Yemen, Africa, etc?
enriquto 7y ago
everybody is freaking out about Hong Kong, and not without reason, but there are much larger movements going on elsewhere (Ecuador, Kurdistan, Yemen, ...) Edit: if you think all these places are too far from the "western world", well, think about Catalonia. We have a lot of arrested political prisoners without trial.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > there are much larger movements going on elsewhere (Ecuador, Kurdistan, Yemen, ...) Nation building is hard. Instilling modern democratic values is hard. Those fights are worth fighting. But Hong Kong is low-hanging fruit. (There is also loss aversion, Hong Kong slipping backwards feels worse than Ecuador remaining Ecuador.)
  - enriquto 7y ago
    > Ecuador remaining Ecuador what do you mean, exactly? This is just a personal thing, but I know many ecuadorians and I feel very strong emotions to the current events there. For me it is much closer culturally than Hong-Kong.
    - nexuist 7y ago
      The idea of Hong Kong, a city-state with Western freedom + democratic values, falling to authoritarian China is far scarier than Ecuador not changing because it shows that China is willing to put in the effort (and we already know they have the power) to strip other places of their human rights. If Hong Kong falls, what's next? Likely Taiwan, Tibet, most of SEA...it's a disaster scenario that results in the de-normalization of Western values. I'm from Albania. I totally understand that you may feel ignored by the world when your country too is fighting for Western values against evil authoritarians. Unfortunately, China is a bigger threat to the entire world than any shitty military dictator our countries can install.
      - chillacy 7y ago
        I hope domino theory doesn't come back, I don't know if I could stomach another 30 years of proxy wars.
sp332 7y ago
So... Twitter and Facebook. Would there even be a way to block Facebook but not Instagram and Whatsapp?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
sbmthakur 7y ago
Does Southern Turkey also has a history like Kashmir?
- NoGravitas 7y ago
  Hope this helps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan
jriot 7y ago
Having lived two hours from Gaziantep, Turkey did this quite often, this isn't anything new. Often times many sites were blocked, then unblocked depending on the whims of the government.
Funes- 7y ago
What about a distributed P2P platform like Aether[0]? Would that be blockable by any given state or authority? [0]: https://getaether.net https://getaether.net
- wybiral 7y ago
  They can block sites that serve the download and they can block any seed nodes that link to hosts in the p2p network. Tor is blocked in similar ways, which is why we have the battle of maintaining a constant supply of bridge nodes and using obfuscation techniques like ShadowSOCKS and VMess.
- gaius_baltar 7y ago
  Isn't that basically recreating Retroshare ?
  - olah_1 7y ago
    It's a souped-up usenet. Privacy and democratic moderation is built-in.
- olah_1 7y ago
  I actually think something like https://www.manyver.se https://www.manyver.se is a better example because it uses so many different ways to get information out. Pubs and rooms over the clear net. Bluetooth, direct p2p, same network connections, etc. I think the future of p2p is utilizing not just one protocol but many of them.
kjar 7y ago
Is the blocking on DNS, port, pattern matching URLs? If DNS perhaps using an encrypted DNS could work.
- sercand 7y ago
  In Turkey blocking is done by ISPs. Each uses different methods. They block with deep packet inspection, URL matching on HTTP websites, and IP blocking with HTTPS websites. They even intercept and change DNS results from Google and Cloudflare.
snow_mac 7y ago
Atleast they didn't block snapchat!
primroot 7y ago
Also related. "Turkey’s Erdogan threatens to release millions of refugees into Europe over criticism of Syria offensive" https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/10/turkeys-erdogan-threatens-release-of-refugees-to-europe-over-syria-criticism.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/10/turkeys-erdogan-threatens-re... Emphasis mine.
- igammarays 7y ago
  Seems like a fair threat to me. Turkey has been bearing the burden of accommodating the majority of Syrian refugees. If Europe blocks its efforts to stabilize a part of Syria so it can repatriate Syrians, it seems logical to tell Europe "if you won't support our solution, you should share the cost of accommodating the refugees".
  - staz 7y ago
    Yeah cause more wars isn't going to create more refugees...
    - m00dy 7y ago
      This is not the first operation that Turkey has been doing. I believe this should be 3rd or 4th one. In previous ones, there weren't a refugee strike through borders.
      - primroot 7y ago
        "Turkish guards at the border with Syria are indiscriminately shooting at and summarily returning asylum seekers attempting to cross into Turkey, Human Rights Watch said." https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey/turk-border-guards-shoot-at-fleeing-syrians-human-rights-watch-idUKKBN1FN0CZ https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turke... This occurred during Operation Olive Branch.
  - jaynetics 7y ago
    > Turkey has been bearing the burden of accommodating the majority of Syrian refugees. Are you aware that this is wholly down to a deal between the EU and Turkey which includes, amongst others, payments of about 6bn EUR to Turkey?
Diederich 7y ago
Echoing another comment: does anyone here know how this block is implemented? Is it a DNS block?
- grenoire 7y ago
  Turkey used to implement DNS blocks but these days (because people learned to quickly circumvent DNS blocks by Google or OpenDNS) they straight up don't route the IPs.
  - coldcode 7y ago
    I wonder with IPV6 could you not come up with a IP hopping protocol so that you can't actually block specific hosts without way too much effort? Maybe it would not work for the general internet, but maybe for some alternative just for this kind of situation?
    - toast0 7y ago
      With this sort of thing, you tend to block networks, not individual IPs. Regardless of how many IPv6 addresses you can use, they're going to be groupable, most likely.
      - grenoire 7y ago
        Agreed, collateral blocks are not necessarily your worries in such scenarios. You could block all of the (e.g.) AWS datacenters for all that matters, if your endgame is preventing access to social media services.
  - htfu 7y ago
    Yeah, I remember the "8.8.8.8" graffiti. At least workarounds are still simple enough, if not quite as easy as before.
  - anticensor 7y ago
    They still do implement DNS blocks for less commonly visited websites. Turkey does blocking at multiple layers ranging from street terminators to central gateways.
hello_moto 7y ago
I lived in a country that recently had an election and while you may think that this is "evil" (judging from the public sentiment of Erdogan and his rezime), I have to say that Social Media is very very ugly pre-Election and during Election (even post-election). So much propaganda from _BOTH_ sides. Even what perceived to be the "good" side also had their own dirty Social Media move. What makes it even worse is that Social Media recommendation engine tend to create some sort of Bubble so you will see propaganda that you've already subscribed to and your counter-part will see propaganda that they subscribed to.
devmunchies 7y ago
no social media? now watch Turkey's GDP double overnight!
ipsin 7y ago
I'm still shocked at how thoroughly the United States betrayed the groups like YPG that we were working with months ago. Destroying fortifications on the Syrian border [1], providing intel to Turkey. There's an official denial of a "green light", but it's pretty clear that that's exactly what it was -- a surprise withdrawal and support ahead of Turkey's offensive. U.S. hardware, support, and consent. It might as well be U.S. troops slaughtering them now, but the U.S. press seems to be treating it as something that the U.S. was not deeply involved in, or something deeply shameful for the U.S. [1] https://twitter.com/sojtfoir/status/1175869891305451522 https://twitter.com/sojtfoir/status/1175869891305451522 [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/middleeast/turkey-attacks-syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/middleeast/turkey-a... ("Because of an American counterterrorism partnership with Turkey, Turkish aircraft were given access to a suite of American battlefield intelligence in northeast Syria.")
- OzzyB 7y ago
  I'm more shocked at comments like yours that get echoed and promoted without any context whatsoever, but then again "Anti-Turkishism" is a thing. What I'm shocked about is how a so called ally can side and arm a vowed terrorist group for years and expect there to be no fallout, but then "Pro-Kurdishism" is a thing. I do love however the narrative that the Kurds are this angelic force that helped us when no other would for no benefit at all. Why don't you and the west just come out and say you want Turkey broken up? It would save us a lot of time instead of being constantly gas lit.
  - Angostura 7y ago
    > Why don't you and the west just come out and say you want Turkey broken up? Because a measure of self determination for the Kurds is not synonymous with I want turkey broken up’?
  - TheArcane 7y ago
    > Why don't you and the west just come out and say you want Turkey broken up? Self-determination is fundamentally supported in the west, like Canada for Quebec.
m00dy 7y ago
Dear Ladies,Gentleman and all non binary people, Turkey is doing a really important military offence and I strongly believe that having this kind of cautions should be in place to control unexpected things might happen in the region. Last but not least, this is an actual war not a movie in your tv set. So, governments should have basic instinct to protect their citizens.
- m00dy 7y ago
  you can devote my comment. But, you can't change my mind.
  - nightwing 7y ago
    > you can devote my comment. But, you can't change my mind. Is that really something to be proud about? Maybe you meant "By simply downvoting my comment, you don't change my opinion, so it's better to write a comment with actual counter-arguments", which would be a comment i would upvote. But what you wrote sounds like a statement that you have an opinion which you are unwilling to change independently of arguments and facts, and that is sad.
toby- 7y ago
Anything to help them massacre the Kurds quietly.
mtw 7y ago
I find Turkey and its government are behaving like an authoritarian regime, much alike Saudi Arabia. I don't understand how invading another country's territory is accepted in 2019. On the other side, the Kurds have lost thousands to fight ISIS (on the behalf of the West), have strong equality men/women etc. We should support the Kurds and cut connections to Turkey
- m00dy 7y ago
  First of all, Turkey is not invading any country. This is just a military offence for securing our borders. It is a basic instinct that every state has nowadays. It is like border that US is now building on Mexico. Just imagine bunch of mexican gangs trespassing your US border and make some unrest. This is almost same situation. Turkey is the country that killed most ISIS fighters. Having strong equality between man/women shouldn't be the only parameter when you are picking up your allies. US and Turkey are member of NATO and we have operations together since then. (Including Korea, Afghanistan and Iraq). Situation for Syria is a little bit different here. Because, it is too close to Turkey. If you cut connections to Turkey, it will cost you more.
  - _ink_ 7y ago
    Turkey is stealing a 30km wide coridor from a different country. If they want a safe zone, they could implement it on their side of the border.
    - m00dy 7y ago
      Turkey has been fighting with PKK for than 30 years now. I can say that having a safe zone within our borders didn't work so far.
      - jacobush 7y ago
        And this magically will?
        7y ago
npx 7y ago
I got a comment reported on Twitter for saying largely the same thing (albeit more briefly), but I stand by this. The sheer volume of inbreeding in the Middle East is astounding - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_in_the_Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_in_the_Middle_... - and it is just a scientific fact that centuries of this have done no favors for the gene pool in the area. There are certainly some brilliant people born there, but if we look at the defining sociopolitical trends in the region it's clear that there is something strange going on. Erdogan (in Turkey), is basically using the refugee crisis to hold a knife to Europe's throat. If the EU offers any resistance to the occupation of northern Syria, he'll open the floodgates. I'm sure the oil fields in that part of Syria aren't relevant here. It's all part of some bizarre Islamic power play that I don't even want to understand. Turkey is, sadly, still a member of NATO. I see two possibilities regarding the attempted coup against Erdogan: either members of his own military wanted to drag him into the street and shoot him or it was a false flag operation with the aim of helping him consolidate political power. Either way, I'm sick of his shit. I'm fairly confident that Putin isn't a member of his fan club, either. Much like the Kurds, the Russians have no friends but the ice. This is without even considering Assad. It's worth noting here that although the demographics are shifting, Russia is still a predominantly an Eastern Orthodox Christian country. Fighting with Muslims is nothing new to them. The Ottoman empire more or less saw the border of Russia and just turned in the other direction. There is no love lost between Russians and Turks. My overarching point here is that the situation is so dynamic and convoluted that I agree with Trump. Withdrawing American forces was the right move. The Kurds are not mounting the sort of resistance that one might expect from a force that intends to stand and fight, they aren't that dumb. Turkish air superiority might not mean much if all of their birds in the region get destroyed on the ground. In that case, the Turks might learn a very tough lesson aobut fighting a battle hardened enemy in their back yard. If Erdogan oversteps, he might end up on the wrong side of both America and Russia which has historically not worked out very well. In any event, the whole thing sucks and I'm glad to be American.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't use HN for regional flamewar or ethnic flamewar or racial flamewar or political flamewar or nationalistic flamewar. We ban accounts that do those things. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
pearjuice 7y ago
I find it remarkable how when Israel creates a buffer zone for an open air prison because "terrorists" the world applauds and accepts their right to defend themselves, but when Turkey does it they are in the wrong. Surely, there is some double standard here?
EGreg 7y ago
Here we go again. When social networks are large and centralized, it’s much easier for governments to shut them down (Turkey, Kashmir) or exert pressure on them to put backdoors in their encryption (China, Britain, USA).
timvisee 7y ago
Just wondering: what is the state of Telegram in this region at this moment?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
moosey 7y ago
Ultimately, we can talk about the ethics or whatever around this, but politics has nothing to do with ethics. I find it shocking that we cannot discuss the general nature of the US political system, but are willing to discuss what are ultimately political concerns in other nations. Either we cover the US political systems, it's treatment of refugees and immigrants, and the ridiculous denial of science and human welfare... or we don't and we leave other countries alone. I am as appalled as anyone by what is happening here, but why would this article be allowed, and not others that point out, rightfully, that this is due to actions by the current POTUS (probably for personal gain, too). Confessing that human welfare is a political decision makes me sick, but look around.
nyxtom 7y ago
Thought experiment: Given an internet connection, you can publish information anywhere, so why need these platforms at all to publish the information? - Viral content, more easily spread among the world network due to the nature of how these networks operate from a social perspective. When access is restricted to these websites, what is the solution? Several options are available: - Keep the content you were planning on publishing saved for later publishing if/when access to these resume - Given that you yourself might not make it (along with your data), it is imperative to be able to distribute your content somewhere else as quickly as possible This leads the following proposed solutions to problems like this: - If any internet connection is available at all, then information can be published somewhere such that it is capable of being eventually queued into your public profiles. The only way an authoritarian regime can mitigate this is by completing banning all internet activity and cell phone use (for instance, I seem to remember that you used to be able to tweet to a phone number, or use common endpoints like email to publish your messages).
ilyaeck 7y ago
There is Telegram! They use domain fronting - very hard to block without blacklisting everything else: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/telegram-in-russia-blocked-web-app-ban-facebook-twitter-google https://www.wired.co.uk/article/telegram-in-russia-blocked-w....
- est 7y ago
  domain fronting basically transfers the burden of availability to another player. It wont last long. China blocked the whole IP block of Google, FB and Twitter. And AWS IPs are actively blacklisted.
foobar_ 7y ago
Are there ways to use build a mesh network using phones so that people in a block might communicate using alternate means?
MentallyRetired 7y ago
Between this and Iraq, it's a tough week for access to the web.
erdinc 7y ago
i live in istanbul/turkey, and i read most of the comments. the solutions provided ( dns, telegram, other mediums to use etc... ) seems practical but you are missing one thing, that part of the turkey, just started to use tools like twittter, fb, etc.. they don't have same knowledge as we in istanbul. Blocking twitter, fb, and other tools, was their only chance to get information. i don't say all the information on those platforms are %100 correct but still, they are better then government provided. Also imagine that, people on that area are just close to the border, yesterday two bombs dropped and 9 people died, 48 people injured and that is just the beginning. there was only social media for them to speak out now they don't. I don't usually follow the press but just because this is a fckng war, i read some news and articles. I can say that, if those people don't distribute the news or stuff happening there, I'm pretty sure the world will not know what is going on there and they will continue to create their own stories.
thrower2234 7y ago
Typical. For context, Turkey criticized similar restrictions in Kashmir just a few weeks earlier. I suppose the Kurds are not really humans, unlike the Kashmiris. What a bunch of two-faced hypocrites.

363 points by infodocket 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

To add to this; Turkey has had a very turbulent past when it came to internet censorship. Politicians have been baffled at (and as such scared by) the speeds at which information spreads online, and have been actively attempting since then to include the internet in their crusade for media censorship. Also, Wikipedia has been blocked in Turkey for two years now (see the logo at https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anasayfa https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anasayfa - "being missed for two years"). It's just a miserable status quo... Savvier users can circumvent these censors just like anywhere else, but the peoples are powerless whether they can access information or not.

dopamean 7y ago

> Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp and Instagram Restricted in Southern Turkey It's kind of incredible how that head line are so terrifying. The only explanation for this is that people don't want information getting out of that area. It's so fucked up. Maybe this is a bit naive to say but I really hate that this is just how things are. We all know what's going to happen and there's nothing that can be done about it. It doesn't really seem like it'll ever change either.

aerodog 7y ago
We do? I don't know. I find we rarely know what's going to happen. In 2016 everyone had for weeks talked about how Aleppo was going to go up in flames. And in the end, it turned out to be an actual operation to rid the place of rebels and then they established order when the city fell. Maybe in these towns the same will happen. But it's hard to say "we all know what's going to happen."
- sp332 7y ago
  This Aleppo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH6xRh6K7-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH6xRh6K7-4 (And yes the video is from RT but if you can find a more reputable source debunking it I'd like to see it.)
plehoux 7y ago
Wouldn't Starlink by Space X solve this? Authoritarian govs. would make it illegal to subscribe... but like VPNs it would be very hard to police, even harder.
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  Starlink is more vulnerable to governments than VPNs and is going to be much much more expensive.
  - yes_man 7y ago
    Big social media companies could offer an API that offers a list of IPs that serve the app and any data it needs from an unblocked source. Then if you're under oppression by a malevolent leadership that blocks a social media, it could be so that you only need to hook your Twitter or Facebook app to internet via Starlink for the millisecond it takes to fetch the unblocked IPs, and the app would be configured to automatically use those in blocked countries. Those new IPs got blocked? Just hit the API again with Starlink and get back to using normal internet. It could be default behavior for the apps in countries where they are blocked to do that if a Starlink connection is up. If a couple of bytes of information every now and then is too expensive to fetch with Starlink in poorer countries, it is too expensive to use for normal internet use for normal people anywhere on the planet. Since you are using normal internet except for fetching the IPs, you are not subject to government snooping or sabotage any more than you would be normally. It also would require normal people at maximum the same level of tech-savvyness as a VPN to just connect to Starlink for a second. Another key difference would be that a VPN requires you to reach the VPN server somehow, and the country can arbitrarily block cable traffic if they have the resources and will. Whether it's technically feasible for most VPNs is another question. But anyway, for Starlink... You would really need to wreck their satellite off the orbit or mess with their radiosignals to block it. Not that social media companies would do anything to piss off authoritarian leaders / oppressing governments. But they could if they thought it's right
    - therein 7y ago
      Censorship resistant DNS over Starlink could be pretty useful and cost effective.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
99052882514569 7y ago
I mean, it's next to a war zone, with tons of military hardware moving about, preparing to enter fighting. It sounds like pretty reasonable counter-intelligence (not to mention counter-propaganda) move.
- y-c-o-m-b 7y ago
  They did the same thing in 2017 during the anti-corruption protests in Turkey. This is just a means to prevent atrocities on behalf of Erdogan's government and the military from leaking out into the public sphere. EDIT: 2014 also: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26677134 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26677134 > This comes after PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan vowed to "wipe out Twitter" following damaging allegations of corruption in his inner circle.
- throwyaway 7y ago
  Right now in Turkey criticizing the operation is considered "terrorist propaganda" (120+ persons already detained), as is reporting that there are victim among Syrian civilians (a few independent journalist already detained and released) any website/tv reporting negatively is being closed by the state TV watchdog. So it is not only about counter-intelligence.
  - 99052882514569 7y ago
    I'm not commenting on the war, the sides taking part in it, etc. I'm merely saying that muting social media in the vicinity of troop movement is a logical move by any government engaged in a war.
- driverdan 7y ago
  Blocking sites like this is never reasonable.
  - 99052882514569 7y ago
    I disagree. Keeping your opponent in the 'fog of war' is a legitimate, reasonable military aim. In the olden days, radio/TV transmissions and newspaper publication was severely restricted during military operations. Today, those are largely irrelevant as news is spread on social media, so this block is the modern-era equivalent. Note how my argument does not depend on whether we're talking about a good war, bad war, just war, evil war, etc.
thelittleone 7y ago
It's disturbing that it's happening so often it's becoming a norm. I guess it's fair then for people to assume the worst. That the government is committing acts so heinous they can't allow them to be discussed.
themagician 7y ago
See, I don't mind it. Twitter and Facebook are HORRIBLE tools to rely on. They spread more wrong information than right information. If free speech is going to survive it will require open systems and responsible journalism. Twitter and Facebook are tools that promote neither. Bad information, I suppose, is better than no information… but damn have we regressed in a lot of ways.
- JetSpiegel 7y ago
  This ban is not to keep the Kurds from receiving information, they know they are getting bombed when their houses blow up. It's to keep information out. To exfiltrate information, all the Social Media anti features are a plus.
m-p-3 7y ago
I hope some federated system like Mastodon picks up in popularity, it would make it harder to blacklist all instances and effectively blackhole the entire platform.
qwerty456127 7y ago
If they didn't want information getting out of that area perhaps they would block better. It seems they just want to block ordinary non-techie users from communicating this way.

postmarkman 7y ago

Time to do Mastodon and hope around servers of the fediverse!

olah_1 7y ago
Relevant Tweet: >Mastodon is proving to be a system so censorship resistant even its creators can't censor it. https://twitter.com/peterktodd/status/1147772867783929856 https://twitter.com/peterktodd/status/1147772867783929856 It seems like federation is actually more censorship resistant in some ways than fully distributed p2p systems. Because an ISP could block ports and things required for p2p connections, right?
- Funes- 7y ago
  Wouldn't the authorities just keep blocking instances (i. e., servers)? I may be wrong, but I don't think a federated platform is censorship-resistant in any meaningful way.
  - olah_1 7y ago
    I suppose so... I really don't know. How do they find them when they're just over regular HTTP? Seems like it would be easier to find p2p traffic. But I don't know.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      If each instance is only used by a small number of users, it might not easily be identified, since the exchange of the platforms wouldn't be visible to Turkey's censors. I don't think this really helps as a means of suppressing information. Unless you block everything, the information will get out and once it's out of the region, you no longer have control. I believe it's mostly about soldiers carrying their cellphones around, posting on facebook when they are idle etc, and you don't want troop movements and staging grounds to be quite that public. "Hey guys, please no Facebook" doesn't work at a large scale, blocking those sites is much easier.
- 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

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alexro 7y ago

Through the whole history we don't know and will never know what's really happened/happening. Have you got an idea of how badly native population of America have been dealt with back then? DO you know what's happening in Kashmiri, Yemen, Africa, etc?

enriquto 7y ago

everybody is freaking out about Hong Kong, and not without reason, but there are much larger movements going on elsewhere (Ecuador, Kurdistan, Yemen, ...) Edit: if you think all these places are too far from the "western world", well, think about Catalonia. We have a lot of arrested political prisoners without trial.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> there are much larger movements going on elsewhere (Ecuador, Kurdistan, Yemen, ...) Nation building is hard. Instilling modern democratic values is hard. Those fights are worth fighting. But Hong Kong is low-hanging fruit. (There is also loss aversion, Hong Kong slipping backwards feels worse than Ecuador remaining Ecuador.)
- enriquto 7y ago
  > Ecuador remaining Ecuador what do you mean, exactly? This is just a personal thing, but I know many ecuadorians and I feel very strong emotions to the current events there. For me it is much closer culturally than Hong-Kong.
  - nexuist 7y ago
    The idea of Hong Kong, a city-state with Western freedom + democratic values, falling to authoritarian China is far scarier than Ecuador not changing because it shows that China is willing to put in the effort (and we already know they have the power) to strip other places of their human rights. If Hong Kong falls, what's next? Likely Taiwan, Tibet, most of SEA...it's a disaster scenario that results in the de-normalization of Western values. I'm from Albania. I totally understand that you may feel ignored by the world when your country too is fighting for Western values against evil authoritarians. Unfortunately, China is a bigger threat to the entire world than any shitty military dictator our countries can install.
    - chillacy 7y ago
      I hope domino theory doesn't come back, I don't know if I could stomach another 30 years of proxy wars.

sp332 7y ago

So... Twitter and Facebook. Would there even be a way to block Facebook but not Instagram and Whatsapp?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

sbmthakur 7y ago

Does Southern Turkey also has a history like Kashmir?

NoGravitas 7y ago
Hope this helps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan

jriot 7y ago

Having lived two hours from Gaziantep, Turkey did this quite often, this isn't anything new. Often times many sites were blocked, then unblocked depending on the whims of the government.

Funes- 7y ago

What about a distributed P2P platform like Aether[0]? Would that be blockable by any given state or authority? [0]: https://getaether.net https://getaether.net

wybiral 7y ago
They can block sites that serve the download and they can block any seed nodes that link to hosts in the p2p network. Tor is blocked in similar ways, which is why we have the battle of maintaining a constant supply of bridge nodes and using obfuscation techniques like ShadowSOCKS and VMess.
gaius_baltar 7y ago
Isn't that basically recreating Retroshare ?
- olah_1 7y ago
  It's a souped-up usenet. Privacy and democratic moderation is built-in.
olah_1 7y ago
I actually think something like https://www.manyver.se https://www.manyver.se is a better example because it uses so many different ways to get information out. Pubs and rooms over the clear net. Bluetooth, direct p2p, same network connections, etc. I think the future of p2p is utilizing not just one protocol but many of them.

kjar 7y ago

Is the blocking on DNS, port, pattern matching URLs? If DNS perhaps using an encrypted DNS could work.

sercand 7y ago
In Turkey blocking is done by ISPs. Each uses different methods. They block with deep packet inspection, URL matching on HTTP websites, and IP blocking with HTTPS websites. They even intercept and change DNS results from Google and Cloudflare.

snow_mac 7y ago

Atleast they didn't block snapchat!

primroot 7y ago

Also related. "Turkey’s Erdogan threatens to release millions of refugees into Europe over criticism of Syria offensive" https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/10/turkeys-erdogan-threatens-release-of-refugees-to-europe-over-syria-criticism.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/10/turkeys-erdogan-threatens-re... Emphasis mine.

igammarays 7y ago
Seems like a fair threat to me. Turkey has been bearing the burden of accommodating the majority of Syrian refugees. If Europe blocks its efforts to stabilize a part of Syria so it can repatriate Syrians, it seems logical to tell Europe "if you won't support our solution, you should share the cost of accommodating the refugees".
- staz 7y ago
  Yeah cause more wars isn't going to create more refugees...
  - m00dy 7y ago
    This is not the first operation that Turkey has been doing. I believe this should be 3rd or 4th one. In previous ones, there weren't a refugee strike through borders.
    - primroot 7y ago
      "Turkish guards at the border with Syria are indiscriminately shooting at and summarily returning asylum seekers attempting to cross into Turkey, Human Rights Watch said." https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey/turk-border-guards-shoot-at-fleeing-syrians-human-rights-watch-idUKKBN1FN0CZ https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turke... This occurred during Operation Olive Branch.
- jaynetics 7y ago
  > Turkey has been bearing the burden of accommodating the majority of Syrian refugees. Are you aware that this is wholly down to a deal between the EU and Turkey which includes, amongst others, payments of about 6bn EUR to Turkey?

Diederich 7y ago

Echoing another comment: does anyone here know how this block is implemented? Is it a DNS block?

grenoire 7y ago
Turkey used to implement DNS blocks but these days (because people learned to quickly circumvent DNS blocks by Google or OpenDNS) they straight up don't route the IPs.
- coldcode 7y ago
  I wonder with IPV6 could you not come up with a IP hopping protocol so that you can't actually block specific hosts without way too much effort? Maybe it would not work for the general internet, but maybe for some alternative just for this kind of situation?
  - toast0 7y ago
    With this sort of thing, you tend to block networks, not individual IPs. Regardless of how many IPv6 addresses you can use, they're going to be groupable, most likely.
    - grenoire 7y ago
      Agreed, collateral blocks are not necessarily your worries in such scenarios. You could block all of the (e.g.) AWS datacenters for all that matters, if your endgame is preventing access to social media services.
- htfu 7y ago
  Yeah, I remember the "8.8.8.8" graffiti. At least workarounds are still simple enough, if not quite as easy as before.
- anticensor 7y ago
  They still do implement DNS blocks for less commonly visited websites. Turkey does blocking at multiple layers ranging from street terminators to central gateways.

hello_moto 7y ago

I lived in a country that recently had an election and while you may think that this is "evil" (judging from the public sentiment of Erdogan and his rezime), I have to say that Social Media is very very ugly pre-Election and during Election (even post-election). So much propaganda from _BOTH_ sides. Even what perceived to be the "good" side also had their own dirty Social Media move. What makes it even worse is that Social Media recommendation engine tend to create some sort of Bubble so you will see propaganda that you've already subscribed to and your counter-part will see propaganda that they subscribed to.

devmunchies 7y ago

no social media? now watch Turkey's GDP double overnight!

ipsin 7y ago

I'm still shocked at how thoroughly the United States betrayed the groups like YPG that we were working with months ago. Destroying fortifications on the Syrian border [1], providing intel to Turkey. There's an official denial of a "green light", but it's pretty clear that that's exactly what it was -- a surprise withdrawal and support ahead of Turkey's offensive. U.S. hardware, support, and consent. It might as well be U.S. troops slaughtering them now, but the U.S. press seems to be treating it as something that the U.S. was not deeply involved in, or something deeply shameful for the U.S. [1] https://twitter.com/sojtfoir/status/1175869891305451522 https://twitter.com/sojtfoir/status/1175869891305451522 [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/middleeast/turkey-attacks-syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/middleeast/turkey-a... ("Because of an American counterterrorism partnership with Turkey, Turkish aircraft were given access to a suite of American battlefield intelligence in northeast Syria.")

OzzyB 7y ago
I'm more shocked at comments like yours that get echoed and promoted without any context whatsoever, but then again "Anti-Turkishism" is a thing. What I'm shocked about is how a so called ally can side and arm a vowed terrorist group for years and expect there to be no fallout, but then "Pro-Kurdishism" is a thing. I do love however the narrative that the Kurds are this angelic force that helped us when no other would for no benefit at all. Why don't you and the west just come out and say you want Turkey broken up? It would save us a lot of time instead of being constantly gas lit.
- Angostura 7y ago
  > Why don't you and the west just come out and say you want Turkey broken up? Because a measure of self determination for the Kurds is not synonymous with I want turkey broken up’?
- TheArcane 7y ago
  > Why don't you and the west just come out and say you want Turkey broken up? Self-determination is fundamentally supported in the west, like Canada for Quebec.

m00dy 7y ago

Dear Ladies,Gentleman and all non binary people, Turkey is doing a really important military offence and I strongly believe that having this kind of cautions should be in place to control unexpected things might happen in the region. Last but not least, this is an actual war not a movie in your tv set. So, governments should have basic instinct to protect their citizens.

m00dy 7y ago
you can devote my comment. But, you can't change my mind.
- nightwing 7y ago
  > you can devote my comment. But, you can't change my mind. Is that really something to be proud about? Maybe you meant "By simply downvoting my comment, you don't change my opinion, so it's better to write a comment with actual counter-arguments", which would be a comment i would upvote. But what you wrote sounds like a statement that you have an opinion which you are unwilling to change independently of arguments and facts, and that is sad.

toby- 7y ago

Anything to help them massacre the Kurds quietly.

mtw 7y ago

I find Turkey and its government are behaving like an authoritarian regime, much alike Saudi Arabia. I don't understand how invading another country's territory is accepted in 2019. On the other side, the Kurds have lost thousands to fight ISIS (on the behalf of the West), have strong equality men/women etc. We should support the Kurds and cut connections to Turkey

m00dy 7y ago
First of all, Turkey is not invading any country. This is just a military offence for securing our borders. It is a basic instinct that every state has nowadays. It is like border that US is now building on Mexico. Just imagine bunch of mexican gangs trespassing your US border and make some unrest. This is almost same situation. Turkey is the country that killed most ISIS fighters. Having strong equality between man/women shouldn't be the only parameter when you are picking up your allies. US and Turkey are member of NATO and we have operations together since then. (Including Korea, Afghanistan and Iraq). Situation for Syria is a little bit different here. Because, it is too close to Turkey. If you cut connections to Turkey, it will cost you more.
- _ink_ 7y ago
  Turkey is stealing a 30km wide coridor from a different country. If they want a safe zone, they could implement it on their side of the border.
  - m00dy 7y ago
    Turkey has been fighting with PKK for than 30 years now. I can say that having a safe zone within our borders didn't work so far.
    - jacobush 7y ago
      And this magically will?
      - 7y ago

npx 7y ago

I got a comment reported on Twitter for saying largely the same thing (albeit more briefly), but I stand by this. The sheer volume of inbreeding in the Middle East is astounding - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_in_the_Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_in_the_Middle_... - and it is just a scientific fact that centuries of this have done no favors for the gene pool in the area. There are certainly some brilliant people born there, but if we look at the defining sociopolitical trends in the region it's clear that there is something strange going on. Erdogan (in Turkey), is basically using the refugee crisis to hold a knife to Europe's throat. If the EU offers any resistance to the occupation of northern Syria, he'll open the floodgates. I'm sure the oil fields in that part of Syria aren't relevant here. It's all part of some bizarre Islamic power play that I don't even want to understand. Turkey is, sadly, still a member of NATO. I see two possibilities regarding the attempted coup against Erdogan: either members of his own military wanted to drag him into the street and shoot him or it was a false flag operation with the aim of helping him consolidate political power. Either way, I'm sick of his shit. I'm fairly confident that Putin isn't a member of his fan club, either. Much like the Kurds, the Russians have no friends but the ice. This is without even considering Assad. It's worth noting here that although the demographics are shifting, Russia is still a predominantly an Eastern Orthodox Christian country. Fighting with Muslims is nothing new to them. The Ottoman empire more or less saw the border of Russia and just turned in the other direction. There is no love lost between Russians and Turks. My overarching point here is that the situation is so dynamic and convoluted that I agree with Trump. Withdrawing American forces was the right move. The Kurds are not mounting the sort of resistance that one might expect from a force that intends to stand and fight, they aren't that dumb. Turkish air superiority might not mean much if all of their birds in the region get destroyed on the ground. In that case, the Turks might learn a very tough lesson aobut fighting a battle hardened enemy in their back yard. If Erdogan oversteps, he might end up on the wrong side of both America and Russia which has historically not worked out very well. In any event, the whole thing sucks and I'm glad to be American.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dang 7y ago
Please don't use HN for regional flamewar or ethnic flamewar or racial flamewar or political flamewar or nationalistic flamewar. We ban accounts that do those things. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

pearjuice 7y ago

I find it remarkable how when Israel creates a buffer zone for an open air prison because "terrorists" the world applauds and accepts their right to defend themselves, but when Turkey does it they are in the wrong. Surely, there is some double standard here?

EGreg 7y ago

Here we go again. When social networks are large and centralized, it’s much easier for governments to shut them down (Turkey, Kashmir) or exert pressure on them to put backdoors in their encryption (China, Britain, USA).

timvisee 7y ago

Just wondering: what is the state of Telegram in this region at this moment?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

moosey 7y ago

Ultimately, we can talk about the ethics or whatever around this, but politics has nothing to do with ethics. I find it shocking that we cannot discuss the general nature of the US political system, but are willing to discuss what are ultimately political concerns in other nations. Either we cover the US political systems, it's treatment of refugees and immigrants, and the ridiculous denial of science and human welfare... or we don't and we leave other countries alone. I am as appalled as anyone by what is happening here, but why would this article be allowed, and not others that point out, rightfully, that this is due to actions by the current POTUS (probably for personal gain, too). Confessing that human welfare is a political decision makes me sick, but look around.

nyxtom 7y ago

Thought experiment: Given an internet connection, you can publish information anywhere, so why need these platforms at all to publish the information? - Viral content, more easily spread among the world network due to the nature of how these networks operate from a social perspective. When access is restricted to these websites, what is the solution? Several options are available: - Keep the content you were planning on publishing saved for later publishing if/when access to these resume - Given that you yourself might not make it (along with your data), it is imperative to be able to distribute your content somewhere else as quickly as possible This leads the following proposed solutions to problems like this: - If any internet connection is available at all, then information can be published somewhere such that it is capable of being eventually queued into your public profiles. The only way an authoritarian regime can mitigate this is by completing banning all internet activity and cell phone use (for instance, I seem to remember that you used to be able to tweet to a phone number, or use common endpoints like email to publish your messages).

ilyaeck 7y ago

There is Telegram! They use domain fronting - very hard to block without blacklisting everything else: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/telegram-in-russia-blocked-web-app-ban-facebook-twitter-google https://www.wired.co.uk/article/telegram-in-russia-blocked-w....

est 7y ago
domain fronting basically transfers the burden of availability to another player. It wont last long. China blocked the whole IP block of Google, FB and Twitter. And AWS IPs are actively blacklisted.

foobar_ 7y ago

Are there ways to use build a mesh network using phones so that people in a block might communicate using alternate means?

MentallyRetired 7y ago

Between this and Iraq, it's a tough week for access to the web.

erdinc 7y ago

i live in istanbul/turkey, and i read most of the comments. the solutions provided ( dns, telegram, other mediums to use etc... ) seems practical but you are missing one thing, that part of the turkey, just started to use tools like twittter, fb, etc.. they don't have same knowledge as we in istanbul. Blocking twitter, fb, and other tools, was their only chance to get information. i don't say all the information on those platforms are %100 correct but still, they are better then government provided. Also imagine that, people on that area are just close to the border, yesterday two bombs dropped and 9 people died, 48 people injured and that is just the beginning. there was only social media for them to speak out now they don't. I don't usually follow the press but just because this is a fckng war, i read some news and articles. I can say that, if those people don't distribute the news or stuff happening there, I'm pretty sure the world will not know what is going on there and they will continue to create their own stories.

thrower2234 7y ago

Typical. For context, Turkey criticized similar restrictions in Kashmir just a few weeks earlier. I suppose the Kurds are not really humans, unlike the Kashmiris. What a bunch of two-faced hypocrites.