5 ms·

>When I described this to Amy, she responded with a magnificent rant that was something like “this is a romanticized utopian ideal about a thing that was inhabi

>When I described this to Amy, she responded with a magnificent rant that was something like “this is a romanticized utopian ideal about a thing that was inhabited by socially inhibited, white male nerds who consider themselves too smart to be misogynistic but, well, often are.” This kind of thinking is itself a major cause and component of the Miasma.

deogeo 7y ago
I don't get it - the nerds were misogynistic, therefore his memory and experience are invalid?
- taneq 7y ago
  Not just that, she's saying the nerds themselves were invalid. Guess she's a misollectual.
  - tom_mellior 7y ago
    I don't read her as saying that the nerds were invalid. I think what she's saying is that if you were part of this group, the early Internet seemed welcoming and inclusive, but if you weren't, it was the opposite. From within a community it's easy to feel inclusive! For whatever it's worth, even though I am a white male nerd myself, I never really felt welcome in "hacker spaces" and such. It must be a lot worse for people who are not white or male. And I'll believe her when she says that that was her experience with the early Internet. (Or, well, today's Internet.)
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      > I think what she's saying is that if you were part of this group, the early Internet seemed welcoming and inclusive, but if you weren't, it was the opposite. From within a community it's easy to feel inclusive! Arguably, the people who weren't "in the group" at that time were people who weren't interested or didn't have access. Internet was neither global nor cheap nor popular back then. As for the misogyny angle, I feel either she fixated herself on a problem and is projecting, or this remark was included to signal allegiance with the social justice crowd. As it is now, the comment reeks of antiintellectualism. > It must be a lot worse for people who are not white or male. I don't think it was back then, because back then people didn't care much about it, and a lot of communities of post-university Internet were text-only pseudonymous communication anyway. As for what's today, increasingly it's being white or male that makes you out of place in a hacker space.
      - tom_mellior 7y ago
        > a lot of communities of post-university Internet were text-only pseudonymous communication anyway So is this. Which is enough for you to spread the old, tired, harmful, and incorrect trope that "people who are not in tech are just not interested". A text-only discussion of how women or minorities don't belong because they don't want to belong is unwelcoming in itself. > As for what's today, increasingly it's being white or male that makes you out of place in a hacker space. You are twisting my words. For one thing, I don't feel "out of place" among non-white non-male people. People are people, I'm not afraid of them because of the color of their skin or what I guess their genitalia are like. For the other, all the hacker spaces I've seen where I didn't feel welcome had large white male majorities.
        oh_sigh 7y ago
        > For one thing, I don't feel "out of place" among non-white non-male people This seems like your own biases are your worst enemy then. So a predictor of your comfort is the non-white, non-maleness of the group? I wonder what this predictor would be called if it was black men that made you feel uncomfortable? You really feel equally "in place" among a group of Hmong women as you do among a group of Honduran women as you do among a group of Nigerian women, but you can't get settled in a group of Russian women?
        tom_mellior 7y ago
        > So a predictor of your comfort is the non-white, non-maleness of the group? No. I said "X is not the case", from which you cannot deduce "the opposite of X is true".
        oh_sigh 7y ago
        Yes, I'm familiar with denying the antecedent. I assumed you weren't just making the "I'm comfortable around non-white, non-male people" as a logical declaration in the vacuum, and not part of any point.
        7y ago
    - oh_sigh 7y ago
      Do you not feel comfortable because of the way you are treated by others, or because your own thoughts about the place make you uncomfortable?
    - taneq 7y ago
      > For whatever it's worth, even though I am a white male nerd myself, I never really felt welcome in "hacker spaces" and such. I never really felt welcome in my university sci-fi club, and only went a couple of times. Looking back, I realise it's because I was cripplingly shy rather than through any fault of the other people in the club. (In fact some of my good friends now were in the club at the time!) I think this kind of thing is more common than usually acknowledged, especially in this kind of discussion. It's one thing to feel out of place or unwelcome, it's quite another to lay sole responsibility for your feelings on the people around you.
      - tom_mellior 7y ago
        I agree that shyness is a huge factor. I don't think that I wrote or suggested that I'm laying responsibility for my shyness on others. Shyness is a thing, and it can be hard to overcome. And harder still if you are shy and you are not a white male in a white male dominated community. If the community wants to be inclusive, it has some responsibility in communicating who is welcome and what is offered to help newcomers overcome their shyness.
- pjc50 7y ago
  His memory and experience don't match her memory and experience, and her experience wasn't nearly as positive. Neither is "invalid", but we should remember the difference between "great" and "great (for the small set of people that enjoyed it)"
whatshisface 7y ago
The miasma works by provoking the human minds it contacts to produce more miasma. It's self-replicating, and its most potent constituents operate on the human need to chant their own team's fight chant whenever an opportunity arises, and especially when someone else's chant is heard. The guy who writes Slate Star Codex would call that an example of the blue tribe, and you can bet that every other tribe that hears it will spread a little of their own color of miasma back to get even. In the end, you get the brown miasma, that is toxic to everybody, and provokes its own production.
- greesil 7y ago
  I'd argue it's not naturally self-replicating. It just seems that way because of how platforms promote content with algorithms that have been optimized for user engagement. Go read the book Zucked, if you haven't already.
  - zaarn 7y ago
    Memes on the internet are already self-replicating in a way that mirrors evolution fairly well. Who's to say there aren't other mind parasites that can jump from host to host and evolve to be even more infectious? In Germany there is a current problem of Copy-Paste texts being shared on whatsapp that behaves almost like a virus. One host can infect dozens of others.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      >In Germany there is a current problem of Copy-Paste texts being shared on whatsapp that behaves almost like a virus. One host can infect dozens of others. People have been forwarding those funny emails for decades.
      - zaarn 7y ago
        And those were infections too. A pest with no physical symptoms.
    - 7y ago
api 7y ago
... as is its doppelgänger, the "red pill" or "manosphere" or "alt-right" or whatever it's called this week crowd. Other side, same coin. The other day I came up with a dorky acronym for social media and what it does: the CRASER. CRASER stands for Craziness Amplification through Stimulation of Engagement with Reactivity. The idea is that primitive emotions like fear, hate, anger, outrage, etc. are the things that drive engagement. In other words: emotional reactivity. We've programmed computers to moderate our discourse with the goal function of driving engagement, so they selectively amplify signals that push those buttons. The result is a craziness laser that is causing everyone to adopt increasingly extreme, irrational, and provocative belief systems and styles of expression. Like in a laser all the various forms of madness feed on each other and intensify each other. In the end there will only be Nazis advocating a new holocaust, Neo-Leninists advocating new gulags, and people who just hate everyone equally and want to destroy the world for the lulz. For what it's worth I remember the early Internet too and in my memory it all really started to go to hell when gasified social media appeared: algorithmic timelines, up/down votes, likes, etc. That's when the CRASER fired up.
adrianN 7y ago
At some point in the distant past, in the Miasma nobody knew you were actually a dog.
- taneq 7y ago
  These days you'll get doggxed if you say the wrong thing.
UweSchmidt 7y ago
Seems like "Amy" missed out on that unique moment in history. I joined in the early Slashdot days and the occasional mailing list, and was fascinated how sophisticated the discussions were. Knowledgeable people went great lenghts to prove their points and didn't hesitate to tell others they were wrong. Up-and downvoting comments worked. Usernames were pretty much anonymous and and arguments had to stand on their own merit. I felt like finally there was a medium where reason and facts could prevail. Finally! But Amy's world has won, the social web is a popularity contest, discussions are group-think and emotion-based, "white male nerds" can be ridiculed. Tragic.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Hmm. When was the golden age of Slashdot? Because I was active in the late 90s up to the early 2000s, and it was already showing the faultlines of the present day. Posting of shock images (goatse was invented there). "GNAA". Trolls got downvoted, but they maintained their own culture down there in the negative comments. It was always a popularity context. The groupthink was so bad that adequacy.org could very effectively parody the obsession with Linux and AMD, as well as other tropes. It looked like a golden age because "we" had a community that was "ours", but the only reason it was "ours" was that a lot of people invisibly bounced off it. If there was a golden age, it ended somewhere between the Columbine shooting (remember /.'s response to that?) and 9/11. The response to that by Adequacy parodies so many comments before and since : http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.9.12.102423.271.html http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.9.12.102423.271.html > Of course the World Trade Center bombings are a uniquely tragic event, and it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. However, we must also consider if this is not also a lesson to us all; a lesson that my political views are correct. Although what is done can never be undone, the fact remains that if the world were organised according to my political views, this tragedy would never have happened.
  - UweSchmidt 7y ago
    Now that you mention it, I too remember the problems. To an extent I do consider them growing pains for a new medium, people trying to break the system in a childlike or hacker way. I also enjoyed the raw-ness of the new medium and accepted the "noise" as so many +5 rated comments were infinitely better than what you were able to read in a newspaper or magazine. Trolling was in it's infancy and at least labeled as such. Today it's organizations successfully influencing elections through social media. And I do think the discussion of events was more nuanced and objective than today, the parody you've linked is actually a pretty good outline for a comment, better than most 140 character tweets.

deogeo 7y ago

I don't get it - the nerds were misogynistic, therefore his memory and experience are invalid?

taneq 7y ago
Not just that, she's saying the nerds themselves were invalid. Guess she's a misollectual.
- tom_mellior 7y ago
  I don't read her as saying that the nerds were invalid. I think what she's saying is that if you were part of this group, the early Internet seemed welcoming and inclusive, but if you weren't, it was the opposite. From within a community it's easy to feel inclusive! For whatever it's worth, even though I am a white male nerd myself, I never really felt welcome in "hacker spaces" and such. It must be a lot worse for people who are not white or male. And I'll believe her when she says that that was her experience with the early Internet. (Or, well, today's Internet.)
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > I think what she's saying is that if you were part of this group, the early Internet seemed welcoming and inclusive, but if you weren't, it was the opposite. From within a community it's easy to feel inclusive! Arguably, the people who weren't "in the group" at that time were people who weren't interested or didn't have access. Internet was neither global nor cheap nor popular back then. As for the misogyny angle, I feel either she fixated herself on a problem and is projecting, or this remark was included to signal allegiance with the social justice crowd. As it is now, the comment reeks of antiintellectualism. > It must be a lot worse for people who are not white or male. I don't think it was back then, because back then people didn't care much about it, and a lot of communities of post-university Internet were text-only pseudonymous communication anyway. As for what's today, increasingly it's being white or male that makes you out of place in a hacker space.
    - tom_mellior 7y ago
      > a lot of communities of post-university Internet were text-only pseudonymous communication anyway So is this. Which is enough for you to spread the old, tired, harmful, and incorrect trope that "people who are not in tech are just not interested". A text-only discussion of how women or minorities don't belong because they don't want to belong is unwelcoming in itself. > As for what's today, increasingly it's being white or male that makes you out of place in a hacker space. You are twisting my words. For one thing, I don't feel "out of place" among non-white non-male people. People are people, I'm not afraid of them because of the color of their skin or what I guess their genitalia are like. For the other, all the hacker spaces I've seen where I didn't feel welcome had large white male majorities.
      - oh_sigh 7y ago
        > For one thing, I don't feel "out of place" among non-white non-male people This seems like your own biases are your worst enemy then. So a predictor of your comfort is the non-white, non-maleness of the group? I wonder what this predictor would be called if it was black men that made you feel uncomfortable? You really feel equally "in place" among a group of Hmong women as you do among a group of Honduran women as you do among a group of Nigerian women, but you can't get settled in a group of Russian women?
        tom_mellior 7y ago
        > So a predictor of your comfort is the non-white, non-maleness of the group? No. I said "X is not the case", from which you cannot deduce "the opposite of X is true".
        oh_sigh 7y ago
        Yes, I'm familiar with denying the antecedent. I assumed you weren't just making the "I'm comfortable around non-white, non-male people" as a logical declaration in the vacuum, and not part of any point.
      - 7y ago
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    Do you not feel comfortable because of the way you are treated by others, or because your own thoughts about the place make you uncomfortable?
  - taneq 7y ago
    > For whatever it's worth, even though I am a white male nerd myself, I never really felt welcome in "hacker spaces" and such. I never really felt welcome in my university sci-fi club, and only went a couple of times. Looking back, I realise it's because I was cripplingly shy rather than through any fault of the other people in the club. (In fact some of my good friends now were in the club at the time!) I think this kind of thing is more common than usually acknowledged, especially in this kind of discussion. It's one thing to feel out of place or unwelcome, it's quite another to lay sole responsibility for your feelings on the people around you.
    - tom_mellior 7y ago
      I agree that shyness is a huge factor. I don't think that I wrote or suggested that I'm laying responsibility for my shyness on others. Shyness is a thing, and it can be hard to overcome. And harder still if you are shy and you are not a white male in a white male dominated community. If the community wants to be inclusive, it has some responsibility in communicating who is welcome and what is offered to help newcomers overcome their shyness.
pjc50 7y ago
His memory and experience don't match her memory and experience, and her experience wasn't nearly as positive. Neither is "invalid", but we should remember the difference between "great" and "great (for the small set of people that enjoyed it)"

whatshisface 7y ago

The miasma works by provoking the human minds it contacts to produce more miasma. It's self-replicating, and its most potent constituents operate on the human need to chant their own team's fight chant whenever an opportunity arises, and especially when someone else's chant is heard. The guy who writes Slate Star Codex would call that an example of the blue tribe, and you can bet that every other tribe that hears it will spread a little of their own color of miasma back to get even. In the end, you get the brown miasma, that is toxic to everybody, and provokes its own production.

greesil 7y ago
I'd argue it's not naturally self-replicating. It just seems that way because of how platforms promote content with algorithms that have been optimized for user engagement. Go read the book Zucked, if you haven't already.
- zaarn 7y ago
  Memes on the internet are already self-replicating in a way that mirrors evolution fairly well. Who's to say there aren't other mind parasites that can jump from host to host and evolve to be even more infectious? In Germany there is a current problem of Copy-Paste texts being shared on whatsapp that behaves almost like a virus. One host can infect dozens of others.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    >In Germany there is a current problem of Copy-Paste texts being shared on whatsapp that behaves almost like a virus. One host can infect dozens of others. People have been forwarding those funny emails for decades.
    - zaarn 7y ago
      And those were infections too. A pest with no physical symptoms.
  - 7y ago

api 7y ago

... as is its doppelgänger, the "red pill" or "manosphere" or "alt-right" or whatever it's called this week crowd. Other side, same coin. The other day I came up with a dorky acronym for social media and what it does: the CRASER. CRASER stands for Craziness Amplification through Stimulation of Engagement with Reactivity. The idea is that primitive emotions like fear, hate, anger, outrage, etc. are the things that drive engagement. In other words: emotional reactivity. We've programmed computers to moderate our discourse with the goal function of driving engagement, so they selectively amplify signals that push those buttons. The result is a craziness laser that is causing everyone to adopt increasingly extreme, irrational, and provocative belief systems and styles of expression. Like in a laser all the various forms of madness feed on each other and intensify each other. In the end there will only be Nazis advocating a new holocaust, Neo-Leninists advocating new gulags, and people who just hate everyone equally and want to destroy the world for the lulz. For what it's worth I remember the early Internet too and in my memory it all really started to go to hell when gasified social media appeared: algorithmic timelines, up/down votes, likes, etc. That's when the CRASER fired up.

adrianN 7y ago

At some point in the distant past, in the Miasma nobody knew you were actually a dog.

taneq 7y ago
These days you'll get doggxed if you say the wrong thing.

UweSchmidt 7y ago

Seems like "Amy" missed out on that unique moment in history. I joined in the early Slashdot days and the occasional mailing list, and was fascinated how sophisticated the discussions were. Knowledgeable people went great lenghts to prove their points and didn't hesitate to tell others they were wrong. Up-and downvoting comments worked. Usernames were pretty much anonymous and and arguments had to stand on their own merit. I felt like finally there was a medium where reason and facts could prevail. Finally! But Amy's world has won, the social web is a popularity contest, discussions are group-think and emotion-based, "white male nerds" can be ridiculed. Tragic.

pjc50 7y ago
Hmm. When was the golden age of Slashdot? Because I was active in the late 90s up to the early 2000s, and it was already showing the faultlines of the present day. Posting of shock images (goatse was invented there). "GNAA". Trolls got downvoted, but they maintained their own culture down there in the negative comments. It was always a popularity context. The groupthink was so bad that adequacy.org could very effectively parody the obsession with Linux and AMD, as well as other tropes. It looked like a golden age because "we" had a community that was "ours", but the only reason it was "ours" was that a lot of people invisibly bounced off it. If there was a golden age, it ended somewhere between the Columbine shooting (remember /.'s response to that?) and 9/11. The response to that by Adequacy parodies so many comments before and since : http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.9.12.102423.271.html http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.9.12.102423.271.html > Of course the World Trade Center bombings are a uniquely tragic event, and it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. However, we must also consider if this is not also a lesson to us all; a lesson that my political views are correct. Although what is done can never be undone, the fact remains that if the world were organised according to my political views, this tragedy would never have happened.
- UweSchmidt 7y ago
  Now that you mention it, I too remember the problems. To an extent I do consider them growing pains for a new medium, people trying to break the system in a childlike or hacker way. I also enjoyed the raw-ness of the new medium and accepted the "noise" as so many +5 rated comments were infinitely better than what you were able to read in a newspaper or magazine. Trolling was in it's infancy and at least labeled as such. Today it's organizations successfully influencing elections through social media. And I do think the discussion of events was more nuanced and objective than today, the parody you've linked is actually a pretty good outline for a comment, better than most 140 character tweets.