6 ms·

That's not a very good threat. Diversity is Europe's strength and they will be welcome with open arms!

Robotbeat 7y ago
Indeed. It'd be nice to see a coordinated effort to welcome and resettle the refugees. A pro-active program that is a pan-ethnic, almost nationalistic to add these refugees to the EU economic and cultural might, with education on local customs and languages and other help in integration. Call the bluff.
- utf985 7y ago
  I can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or just extremely naive wishful thinking. Could you provide at least one example of a successful such program?
  - throwaway9980 7y ago
    America.
    - utf985 7y ago
      This is a very bad example. America is a completely different story as it is a stitched up nation (for lack of better words) from it's very inception and the societal and cultural dynamics are very different from those in Europe. Please don't try to force American solutions to non-American problems. Furthermore, the US currently is a lot more xenophobic and less accepting of foreigners than Europe is. I'd even go as far as say that in my experience Americans in general tend to be more racist than Europeans as well. And let's not forget USA's far from spotless historical record of treatment of minorities and other groups deemed to be 'different'.
      - Robotbeat 7y ago
        There's no fundamental reason why America's ability to integrate cultures couldn't be replicated in Europe. It's just a cultural choice not to. There's not any excuse for it. Just like the current xenophobic attitudes among some in the US is a choice and was a choice in the past. None of this is excusable, none of it is inevitable. And I have little patience for "realists" who carry water for the idea that xenophobia is inevitable and unchangeable. And not that it matters to the discussion of whether it's inevitable or not, but Americans are more welcoming of immigrants: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/business/international/for-immigrants-america-is-still-more-welcoming-than-europe.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/business/international/fo... and have lower demonstrated racism than most of Europe: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...
      - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
        Wait - America is almost entirely peopled with folks from other countries. What magical transformation occurred when they moved to a different continent, that made Americans suddenly different? Our solutions are not somehow incompatible with European people, since many of us are, originally, from there. And forget the anecdotal data. The bulk of Americans interact with folks from all around the world, daily, with little issue. America's a big place, and its easy to cherry-pick news reports to get any impression you like. Here's some data: racism by demonstrated tolerance. America is at the bottom of the list: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...
    - muro 7y ago
      I wanted to reply "Wasn't it mostly while it was sparsely populated and expanding?", but decided to check numbers first. You are right! https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2017/table1 https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2017/tab...
      - utf985 7y ago
        Again, a very different situation. First of all, these numbers are still very minuscule compared to the total population and territory of the USA - for example the UK alone accepted a little over 200k non-eu immigrants in 2018. Secondly, these new citizens are truly multicultural, as they literally come from every part of the globe - opposed to the refugees coming into the EU who are mostly from a middle eastern cultural origin. Because of this new immigrants coming into the US rarely have the luxury of arriving in a group of people similar to them so they are pretty much forced to assimilate. Lastly, the geographical position of the US and their immigration policies allow them to be able to sift through the millions of applicants and pick the cream of the crop. Winning the dv lottery is not unconditional - it's only the first step in a series of screenings and checks one needs to undergo before he's even approved to become an american citizen. This is the polar opposite of the migrant situation in Europe where millions of people are simply passing through county borders without barely any supervision or control.
        Robotbeat 7y ago
        The idea that "new immigrants coming into the US rarely have the luxury of arriving in a group of people similar to them" is wrong both currently and historically. This is making excuses for a cultural choice.
    - bordercases 7y ago
      America is successful only if you consider constant low key domestic conflict and much gnashing of teeth and whataboutism successful. They're powerful worldwide despite all of this.
    - malandrew 7y ago
      Only because we limit numbers so assimilation is a necessity. The numbers of refugees to citizens is much higher in Europe, enough so that you get entire neighborhoods full of refugees instead of just refugees intermingled with the local population.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
You forgot the /s. Last refugee crisis destroyed any future plans for expansion of the Schengen zone, helped Brexit and propell right wing parties at elections in EU member states and also further distance the southern states from the north as they were left to deal with the crisis alone. Edit: I'm not blaming the refugees, I'm highlighting that if Europe was so united as you suggest we wouldn't be having these issues but currently, as you can see, Europe's policy is every man for himself and the refugee crisis helped expose problems Europe already had.
- brosinante 7y ago
  Or, a bunch of wealthy lads looking to get even wealthier teamed up with a bunch of xenophobes and racists with friends in the publishing industry to scam the entire UK. Depends on your point of view I guess.
  - dev_dull 7y ago
    You think the wealthy lads are pro brexit?
  - delfinom 7y ago
    Lol, wealthy lads want cheap labor for their factories not expensive.
    - brosinante 7y ago
      Like vocal brexiter James Dyson moving the company headquarters to Asia after the referendum you mean?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ThinkBeat 7y ago
um no. The previous immigration crisis proved something rather different. Individuals might feel that way but governments are happy to have then detained in Turkey. Even Sweden would probably not open up for so many refugees and several Eastern European countries refuse any. (EU might be able to force them).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dextralt 7y ago
>Diversity is strength I'd like to point out that it is a notion held by a minuscule % of the population. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/12/in-views-of-diversity-many-europeans-are-less-positive-than-americans/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/12/in-views-of... And I believe that the opinion held by majority matters more than the notions held by a minority, however vocal it might be. This is how democracy works, doesn't it?
s9w 7y ago
a reply to this was just removed. not [removed] removed, but actually deleted. Is that normal? I've never seen that.
- ahbyb 7y ago
  I was the author of that message and I removed it myself (it was a troll reply that got flagged). Removed posts appear as [removed] only if they have children (and, I believe, only mods can remove posts that have children). A post with no children that is removed by its author or a mod simply vanishes.
  - dang 7y ago
    I appreciate the effort you've been making to inch a bit closer toward the intended use of the site. I hope it isn't too annoying if I say so. The tag HN uses is not [removed] but [deleted] and yes, if the post has no children, we don't bother displaying that. It's just there as a placeholder in comment trees. More importantly, though: mods never delete posts unless the author asks us to. The most we would do is kill a post, which shows as [dead] and is visible to anyone with showdead turned on in their profile. There have been a handful of exceptions to that in 10 years, a couple accidental deletions and a couple that the legal department told us we had to do, but it is as solid a rule as we have on HN.
    - ahbyb 7y ago
      >I appreciate the effort you've been making to inch a bit closer toward the intended use of the site. I hope it isn't too annoying if I say so. Absolutely not, and I appreciate what you do. It's very uncommon to see someone with the necessary set of skills to effectively maintain a community and put up with people like me. That also includes calmly explaining over and over again the decisions that have to be taken to moderate this site without falling for the "I'm doing this because this is the way it is/because I want to" argument.
      - dang 7y ago
        Thanks for that. If there are things we could do differently that you think would be more effective, I'd like to know what they are.

Indeed. It'd be nice to see a coordinated effort to welcome and resettle the refugees. A pro-active program that is a pan-ethnic, almost nationalistic to add these refugees to the EU economic and cultural might, with education on local customs and languages and other help in integration. Call the bluff.

utf985 7y ago
I can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or just extremely naive wishful thinking. Could you provide at least one example of a successful such program?
- throwaway9980 7y ago
  America.
  - utf985 7y ago
    This is a very bad example. America is a completely different story as it is a stitched up nation (for lack of better words) from it's very inception and the societal and cultural dynamics are very different from those in Europe. Please don't try to force American solutions to non-American problems. Furthermore, the US currently is a lot more xenophobic and less accepting of foreigners than Europe is. I'd even go as far as say that in my experience Americans in general tend to be more racist than Europeans as well. And let's not forget USA's far from spotless historical record of treatment of minorities and other groups deemed to be 'different'.
    - Robotbeat 7y ago
      There's no fundamental reason why America's ability to integrate cultures couldn't be replicated in Europe. It's just a cultural choice not to. There's not any excuse for it. Just like the current xenophobic attitudes among some in the US is a choice and was a choice in the past. None of this is excusable, none of it is inevitable. And I have little patience for "realists" who carry water for the idea that xenophobia is inevitable and unchangeable. And not that it matters to the discussion of whether it's inevitable or not, but Americans are more welcoming of immigrants: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/business/international/for-immigrants-america-is-still-more-welcoming-than-europe.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/business/international/fo... and have lower demonstrated racism than most of Europe: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      Wait - America is almost entirely peopled with folks from other countries. What magical transformation occurred when they moved to a different continent, that made Americans suddenly different? Our solutions are not somehow incompatible with European people, since many of us are, originally, from there. And forget the anecdotal data. The bulk of Americans interact with folks from all around the world, daily, with little issue. America's a big place, and its easy to cherry-pick news reports to get any impression you like. Here's some data: racism by demonstrated tolerance. America is at the bottom of the list: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...
  - muro 7y ago
    I wanted to reply "Wasn't it mostly while it was sparsely populated and expanding?", but decided to check numbers first. You are right! https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2017/table1 https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2017/tab...
    - utf985 7y ago
      Again, a very different situation. First of all, these numbers are still very minuscule compared to the total population and territory of the USA - for example the UK alone accepted a little over 200k non-eu immigrants in 2018. Secondly, these new citizens are truly multicultural, as they literally come from every part of the globe - opposed to the refugees coming into the EU who are mostly from a middle eastern cultural origin. Because of this new immigrants coming into the US rarely have the luxury of arriving in a group of people similar to them so they are pretty much forced to assimilate. Lastly, the geographical position of the US and their immigration policies allow them to be able to sift through the millions of applicants and pick the cream of the crop. Winning the dv lottery is not unconditional - it's only the first step in a series of screenings and checks one needs to undergo before he's even approved to become an american citizen. This is the polar opposite of the migrant situation in Europe where millions of people are simply passing through county borders without barely any supervision or control.
      - Robotbeat 7y ago
        The idea that "new immigrants coming into the US rarely have the luxury of arriving in a group of people similar to them" is wrong both currently and historically. This is making excuses for a cultural choice.
  - bordercases 7y ago
    America is successful only if you consider constant low key domestic conflict and much gnashing of teeth and whataboutism successful. They're powerful worldwide despite all of this.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    Only because we limit numbers so assimilation is a necessity. The numbers of refugees to citizens is much higher in Europe, enough so that you get entire neighborhoods full of refugees instead of just refugees intermingled with the local population.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

You forgot the /s. Last refugee crisis destroyed any future plans for expansion of the Schengen zone, helped Brexit and propell right wing parties at elections in EU member states and also further distance the southern states from the north as they were left to deal with the crisis alone. Edit: I'm not blaming the refugees, I'm highlighting that if Europe was so united as you suggest we wouldn't be having these issues but currently, as you can see, Europe's policy is every man for himself and the refugee crisis helped expose problems Europe already had.

brosinante 7y ago
Or, a bunch of wealthy lads looking to get even wealthier teamed up with a bunch of xenophobes and racists with friends in the publishing industry to scam the entire UK. Depends on your point of view I guess.
- dev_dull 7y ago
  You think the wealthy lads are pro brexit?
- delfinom 7y ago
  Lol, wealthy lads want cheap labor for their factories not expensive.
  - brosinante 7y ago
    Like vocal brexiter James Dyson moving the company headquarters to Asia after the referendum you mean?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

ThinkBeat 7y ago

um no. The previous immigration crisis proved something rather different. Individuals might feel that way but governments are happy to have then detained in Turkey. Even Sweden would probably not open up for so many refugees and several Eastern European countries refuse any. (EU might be able to force them).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dextralt 7y ago

>Diversity is strength I'd like to point out that it is a notion held by a minuscule % of the population. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/12/in-views-of-diversity-many-europeans-are-less-positive-than-americans/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/12/in-views-of... And I believe that the opinion held by majority matters more than the notions held by a minority, however vocal it might be. This is how democracy works, doesn't it?

s9w 7y ago

a reply to this was just removed. not [removed] removed, but actually deleted. Is that normal? I've never seen that.

ahbyb 7y ago
I was the author of that message and I removed it myself (it was a troll reply that got flagged). Removed posts appear as [removed] only if they have children (and, I believe, only mods can remove posts that have children). A post with no children that is removed by its author or a mod simply vanishes.
- dang 7y ago
  I appreciate the effort you've been making to inch a bit closer toward the intended use of the site. I hope it isn't too annoying if I say so. The tag HN uses is not [removed] but [deleted] and yes, if the post has no children, we don't bother displaying that. It's just there as a placeholder in comment trees. More importantly, though: mods never delete posts unless the author asks us to. The most we would do is kill a post, which shows as [dead] and is visible to anyone with showdead turned on in their profile. There have been a handful of exceptions to that in 10 years, a couple accidental deletions and a couple that the legal department told us we had to do, but it is as solid a rule as we have on HN.
  - ahbyb 7y ago
    >I appreciate the effort you've been making to inch a bit closer toward the intended use of the site. I hope it isn't too annoying if I say so. Absolutely not, and I appreciate what you do. It's very uncommon to see someone with the necessary set of skills to effectively maintain a community and put up with people like me. That also includes calmly explaining over and over again the decisions that have to be taken to moderate this site without falling for the "I'm doing this because this is the way it is/because I want to" argument.
    - dang 7y ago
      Thanks for that. If there are things we could do differently that you think would be more effective, I'd like to know what they are.