7 ms·

Blizzard and now Apple. I think this is very serious and it should be a wake-up call. As simple citizens we don't have much choices but vote with our wallets

Blizzard and now Apple. I think this is very serious and it should be a wake-up call. As simple citizens we don't have much choices but vote with our wallets and use social networks to attack the most valuable asset of those companies, their reputation.

ProAm 7y ago
This isnt about free will, its a clear indication that the US is not the worlds most important economy anymore.
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  No, this is companies betting that the few percent of the American market they are losing by behaving this way will be outweighed by getting access to the Chinese market. If this was a straight-up choice between only the US market or only the Chinese market, they would be picking the US. Protestors have to change that calculus.
- jorvi 7y ago
  Depending on the year either the EU or the USA are the biggest economy with China being either second or third. So long as 'the west' sticks together (which we haven't for the past few years) there is nothing that can break that hegemony. Whether that's a good thing depends largely on where you live.
- 0xffff2 7y ago
  So far no one has had to choose. If the US started sanctioning US companies that took these kinds of actions, then we'd find out as companies either reversed their decisions or fled the US.
  - SubiculumCode 7y ago
    Apple is a U.S. entity. It would cease to exist if the U.S. government chose.
    - 0xffff2 7y ago
      And so far the U.S. government hasn't even chosen to take much less drastic measures, which was my point.
journalctl 7y ago
That’s not how this works. Apple is one of the wealthiest companies in the world, and saying “just don’t spend money there” is a bit reductionist and trivializes the problem of corporations with more power than nation-states. You need to fight fire with fire: governments of the world (especially the US government) need to create laws that restrict and punish this kind of behavior. Otherwise, I sincerely doubt Apple’s going to even notice the missing couple hundred thousand dollars of revenue because of principled “voting with your wallet”.
- mmastrac 7y ago
  Homegrown sentiment against Apple will very quickly turn the company in the right direction. None of these large companies can afford to completely neglect their home territories.
  - journalctl 7y ago
    Most people don’t actually care about this issue, though. Whether or not they should is a different debate, but at the end of the day, people want a solid laptop that works, and even if people did care, I don’t blame them for valuing more short-term things like “I need a MacBook for my job” vs. more long-term, abstract things like “we shouldn’t import autocratic Chinese censorship”. We can have a world where companies produce good products and act in accordance with democratic, liberal ideology.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hi5eyes 7y ago
  > You need to fight fire with fire: governments of the world (especially the US government) need to create laws that restrict and punish this kind of behavior. Otherwise, I sincerely doubt Apple’s going to even notice the missing couple hundred thousand dollars of revenue because of principled “voting with your wallet”. and as we all know, governments are becoming a thing of the past. too slow too bad. I welcome our technotopia overlords
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
avocado4 7y ago
I'm done with Apple. From now on Huawei is my phone of choice. #freehongkong /s
- excalibur 7y ago
  I think you're getting downvoted because you forgot to label your post as sarcasm with an "/s" at the end. You might get downvoted anyway, but this seems to be the HN equivalent of clown makeup, and will encourage some of the srs bsns police to overlook your post.
- hardlianotion 7y ago
  Paradox or oxymoron?
helpPeople 7y ago
Don't buy stuff from them. Easy. So easy.
- afarrell 7y ago
  The name for why this is not easy is “coordination problem”.
  - helpPeople 7y ago
    I don't see how that is relevant. If I don't use Apple products, I can't get my apps removed by the Chinese government.
throwawaypolicy 7y ago
I think that more effective than voting with your wallet is voting in your elections and communicating with your politicians. Even voting with your wallet by donating to support political action. Collective action is more effective when it's done via law because that removes the incentive to defect for personal gain. It means that people not paying attention aren't accidentally contributing to immoral causes. In a case like this collective action means things like putting tarrifs on goods from China, so that their workforce isn't important, and banning exports to China, so that their market isn't important. More direct laws like "no censoring what China wants you to censor" are problematic because it's hard to detect in most cases, and it often violates freedom of speech. And yes, I'm suggesting a very painful thing to do economically.
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
I've been using Android since the beginning, and I think Google is making it worse and worse with each passing day. I was thinking of switching to Apple. I really like where they're going with this privacy stuff. But, no, not a chance. Fuck Apple forever over this decision. I will never buy an Apple product in my life unless they make this right.
- kop316 7y ago
  In (quasi)defense of Google on this front: On my Google Pixel 3a, I can download AOSP to my own computer, modify it how I wish, scrape the vendor dependencies I need[1], compile it myself, sign it myself, and use my own key to control what OS gets installed, then relock the bootloader so it only trusts updates using my key! I can choose not to use Google Play and then install whatever App I want on it. I wish I could not have to use any proprietaryy binaries, but this is as close to an open device that you can get today [2]. [1] This is where the quasi defense comes in. AOSP has no official process to install all of the vendor binaries needed to support carriers. If you don't include this process you get broken SMS, Calling, WiFi Calling. This script helps you do it: https://github.com/GrapheneOS/android-prepare-vendor https://github.com/GrapheneOS/android-prepare-vendor [2] Yes I know of the Librem 5. I am a day one backer and have yet to get a shipping notification despite shipping starting in Sept. I also know of the Pinephone, it is not publically available. I await the day those types of products are viable.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
    Also in quasi defense of Google (note that I work there), it almost do no business in China. So it doesn't bend over to The CCP. Moving forward, my biggest purchasing decision as a consumer is going to be based on how much ties a company has to The CCP. I feel like my freedom is under direct threat from The CCP more than anything else, and I'll treat it accordingly when making purchasing decisions moving forward.
    - codesushi42 7y ago
      So it doesn't bend over to The CCP. It tried to and would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids. Did you not read the memo?
cjslep 7y ago
"Vote with your wallet" is a broken mentality. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21202793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21202793
66543throwaway 7y ago
Don’t forget Adobe being forced to terminate all accounts in Venezuela.
beastoven 7y ago
NBA has removed fans from games for having pro Hong-Kong signs. Games in the United States.
theincredulousk 7y ago
That is unfortunately the essence of the issue surfacing with South Park, Blizzard, NBA, & now Apple. The Chinese market is the "wallet" and China is "voting" with it. They have the ability to almost instantly evaporate a multi-billion dollar market. That is the kind of "wallet power" (somewhat idealistic) democratic-capitalist consumers like to think they have, but never really execute on with the same impact. This isn't defeatism on my part - things could be different - but they aren't for now.
SN76477 7y ago
It really makes me wonder if China already own the world economy and it is just now showing its face.
kd3 7y ago
It's not "now" Apple. Apple has been serving the criminal Chinese government for years now. Even Facebook and Google have been doing so, even going so far as to build censorship into their products specifically for the Chinese government.
luxuryballs 7y ago
The only thing that gives me pause is thinking would the Chinese be better off without access to any Apple or Blizzard products at all? Because I think that is ultimately the threat of not following the mandates.

ProAm 7y ago

This isnt about free will, its a clear indication that the US is not the worlds most important economy anymore.

Ensorceled 7y ago
No, this is companies betting that the few percent of the American market they are losing by behaving this way will be outweighed by getting access to the Chinese market. If this was a straight-up choice between only the US market or only the Chinese market, they would be picking the US. Protestors have to change that calculus.
jorvi 7y ago
Depending on the year either the EU or the USA are the biggest economy with China being either second or third. So long as 'the west' sticks together (which we haven't for the past few years) there is nothing that can break that hegemony. Whether that's a good thing depends largely on where you live.
0xffff2 7y ago
So far no one has had to choose. If the US started sanctioning US companies that took these kinds of actions, then we'd find out as companies either reversed their decisions or fled the US.
- SubiculumCode 7y ago
  Apple is a U.S. entity. It would cease to exist if the U.S. government chose.
  - 0xffff2 7y ago
    And so far the U.S. government hasn't even chosen to take much less drastic measures, which was my point.

journalctl 7y ago

That’s not how this works. Apple is one of the wealthiest companies in the world, and saying “just don’t spend money there” is a bit reductionist and trivializes the problem of corporations with more power than nation-states. You need to fight fire with fire: governments of the world (especially the US government) need to create laws that restrict and punish this kind of behavior. Otherwise, I sincerely doubt Apple’s going to even notice the missing couple hundred thousand dollars of revenue because of principled “voting with your wallet”.

mmastrac 7y ago
Homegrown sentiment against Apple will very quickly turn the company in the right direction. None of these large companies can afford to completely neglect their home territories.
- journalctl 7y ago
  Most people don’t actually care about this issue, though. Whether or not they should is a different debate, but at the end of the day, people want a solid laptop that works, and even if people did care, I don’t blame them for valuing more short-term things like “I need a MacBook for my job” vs. more long-term, abstract things like “we shouldn’t import autocratic Chinese censorship”. We can have a world where companies produce good products and act in accordance with democratic, liberal ideology.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hi5eyes 7y ago
> You need to fight fire with fire: governments of the world (especially the US government) need to create laws that restrict and punish this kind of behavior. Otherwise, I sincerely doubt Apple’s going to even notice the missing couple hundred thousand dollars of revenue because of principled “voting with your wallet”. and as we all know, governments are becoming a thing of the past. too slow too bad. I welcome our technotopia overlords
NeedMoreTea 7y ago

avocado4 7y ago

I'm done with Apple. From now on Huawei is my phone of choice. #freehongkong /s

excalibur 7y ago
I think you're getting downvoted because you forgot to label your post as sarcasm with an "/s" at the end. You might get downvoted anyway, but this seems to be the HN equivalent of clown makeup, and will encourage some of the srs bsns police to overlook your post.
hardlianotion 7y ago
Paradox or oxymoron?

helpPeople 7y ago

Don't buy stuff from them. Easy. So easy.

afarrell 7y ago
The name for why this is not easy is “coordination problem”.
- helpPeople 7y ago
  I don't see how that is relevant. If I don't use Apple products, I can't get my apps removed by the Chinese government.

throwawaypolicy 7y ago

I think that more effective than voting with your wallet is voting in your elections and communicating with your politicians. Even voting with your wallet by donating to support political action. Collective action is more effective when it's done via law because that removes the incentive to defect for personal gain. It means that people not paying attention aren't accidentally contributing to immoral causes. In a case like this collective action means things like putting tarrifs on goods from China, so that their workforce isn't important, and banning exports to China, so that their market isn't important. More direct laws like "no censoring what China wants you to censor" are problematic because it's hard to detect in most cases, and it often violates freedom of speech. And yes, I'm suggesting a very painful thing to do economically.

onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago

I've been using Android since the beginning, and I think Google is making it worse and worse with each passing day. I was thinking of switching to Apple. I really like where they're going with this privacy stuff. But, no, not a chance. Fuck Apple forever over this decision. I will never buy an Apple product in my life unless they make this right.

kop316 7y ago
In (quasi)defense of Google on this front: On my Google Pixel 3a, I can download AOSP to my own computer, modify it how I wish, scrape the vendor dependencies I need[1], compile it myself, sign it myself, and use my own key to control what OS gets installed, then relock the bootloader so it only trusts updates using my key! I can choose not to use Google Play and then install whatever App I want on it. I wish I could not have to use any proprietaryy binaries, but this is as close to an open device that you can get today [2]. [1] This is where the quasi defense comes in. AOSP has no official process to install all of the vendor binaries needed to support carriers. If you don't include this process you get broken SMS, Calling, WiFi Calling. This script helps you do it: https://github.com/GrapheneOS/android-prepare-vendor https://github.com/GrapheneOS/android-prepare-vendor [2] Yes I know of the Librem 5. I am a day one backer and have yet to get a shipping notification despite shipping starting in Sept. I also know of the Pinephone, it is not publically available. I await the day those types of products are viable.
- onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
  Also in quasi defense of Google (note that I work there), it almost do no business in China. So it doesn't bend over to The CCP. Moving forward, my biggest purchasing decision as a consumer is going to be based on how much ties a company has to The CCP. I feel like my freedom is under direct threat from The CCP more than anything else, and I'll treat it accordingly when making purchasing decisions moving forward.
  - codesushi42 7y ago
    So it doesn't bend over to The CCP. It tried to and would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids. Did you not read the memo?

cjslep 7y ago

"Vote with your wallet" is a broken mentality. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21202793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21202793

66543throwaway 7y ago

Don’t forget Adobe being forced to terminate all accounts in Venezuela.

beastoven 7y ago

NBA has removed fans from games for having pro Hong-Kong signs. Games in the United States.

theincredulousk 7y ago

That is unfortunately the essence of the issue surfacing with South Park, Blizzard, NBA, & now Apple. The Chinese market is the "wallet" and China is "voting" with it. They have the ability to almost instantly evaporate a multi-billion dollar market. That is the kind of "wallet power" (somewhat idealistic) democratic-capitalist consumers like to think they have, but never really execute on with the same impact. This isn't defeatism on my part - things could be different - but they aren't for now.

SN76477 7y ago

It really makes me wonder if China already own the world economy and it is just now showing its face.

kd3 7y ago

It's not "now" Apple. Apple has been serving the criminal Chinese government for years now. Even Facebook and Google have been doing so, even going so far as to build censorship into their products specifically for the Chinese government.

luxuryballs 7y ago

The only thing that gives me pause is thinking would the Chinese be better off without access to any Apple or Blizzard products at all? Because I think that is ultimately the threat of not following the mandates.