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And how exactly would you know that? There is a great deal of animosity towards police right now in HK. A very small minority of protestors have demonstrated wi

And how exactly would you know that? There is a great deal of animosity towards police right now in HK. A very small minority of protestors have demonstrated willingness to apply violence, and police (including off-duty officers) have been attacked in the open on more than one occasion. So I don’t think it’s inconceivable that the availability of a crowdsourced map might increase such incidents. Of course, this is going to end up being a pretext to ban the website too, which is going to introduce China-style internet censorship to HK. Nobody wants that. The way things are going, though, I don’t see how else this can go.

_Understated_ 7y ago
> A very small minority of protestors have demonstrated willingness to apply violence, and police (including off-duty officers) have been attacked in the open on more than one occasion Haven't the police being doing the very same thing to protestors and innocent civilians?
potatofarmer45 7y ago
Then by the same logic, WeChat should be banned since it's clearly documented to be used by Chinese Trolls to attack protesters in Australia and Canada.
- nneonneo 7y ago
  If WeChat’s primary purpose was to track protestors overseas, then yeah, it should be banned. But that’s not what the app does. I want to be clear that I’m not trying to side with anyone here - I’m just calling out a knee-jerk response that I don’t believe is actually based in fact. If there’s good evidence that Apple or the HK government is inventing evidence of misuse, I’ll happily take back what I’ve said.
  - imihai1988 7y ago
    Isn't Waze also displaying police forces ? Also by croudsourcing information ? Why is Apple not looking into that ?
  - baq 7y ago
    My east european country has been governed by authoritarian rule which was 95% dependent on a totalitarian foreign nation state. You either don't understand what this means or are actively protecting a totalitarian dictatorship.
idlewords 7y ago
I know that because I've been attending Hong Kong protests for two months and talking to people. Off-duty police are not even tracked on the map, so I don't get your argument even if I accepted the false premise that attacks on police are common.
- nneonneo 7y ago
  I did not say that attacks on police were common. Indeed, I believe that any such attacks should be the work of a very small minority of protestors who would definitely not represent the whole. It’s clear that attacks against off-duty police officers have happened in the past, so I included that aside as an example of the threats that police face. Of course those attacks predate the map app. Those are also the kinds of attacks that tend to make news, because they’re essentially attacks against civilians (similarly, this is why news of police attacks against civilians make news).
oarsinsync 7y ago
One of the problems being faced in HK is that there are times when it's difficult to identify when the police are HK police, or when the police are actually Chinese military in HK uniform. One of the signs (as it always is) is the footwear used by the officers differs between actual HK police and Chinese military forces in HK police uniform. Another problem is that there are times when it's difficult to identify when the protestors are HK citizens, or when the protestors are Chinese military in plain clothes. There was an incident a few weeks back where a fire was set outside Central MTR station which was reported to have been set by HK protestors. There was graffiti on the wall to this effect. The graffiti was written in simplified Chinese, which is used in the mainland. In Hong Kong, they use traditional Chinese in written communications. The difficulty is in accurate attribution. Terrorist groups will take credit for atrocities they didn't commit because it's beneficial for them and their cause. Which then leads down the rabbit hole of asking who benefits from violence in HK? It's also worth looking at the history of protests in HK, how frequently they have occurred, and how often violence has actually erupted. It's a country that successfully peacefully protested numerous times, to great effect. > The way things are going, though, I don’t see how else this can go. Fortunately, the people in HK don't share this view, and continue to protest for their rights and their freedoms. They're not giving up, they're not giving in. It's easy to be this pessimistic when you live in a western country, where peaceful protests in recent history (~20 years or so) are almost completely ineffective. When you've lived in a place where peaceful protests have historically been effective, it's a different story. Especially when it's literally your own life on the line.
- idlewords 7y ago
  There is zero evidence of covert mainland Chinese participation in the protests on either side, although as you demonstrate the rumors about it are nonstop.
- powerapple 7y ago
  lol. HK police and protests are staying at home watching tvs, there are just mainlanders on street both damaging properties and arresting themselves.

_Understated_ 7y ago

> A very small minority of protestors have demonstrated willingness to apply violence, and police (including off-duty officers) have been attacked in the open on more than one occasion Haven't the police being doing the very same thing to protestors and innocent civilians?

potatofarmer45 7y ago

Then by the same logic, WeChat should be banned since it's clearly documented to be used by Chinese Trolls to attack protesters in Australia and Canada.

nneonneo 7y ago
If WeChat’s primary purpose was to track protestors overseas, then yeah, it should be banned. But that’s not what the app does. I want to be clear that I’m not trying to side with anyone here - I’m just calling out a knee-jerk response that I don’t believe is actually based in fact. If there’s good evidence that Apple or the HK government is inventing evidence of misuse, I’ll happily take back what I’ve said.
- imihai1988 7y ago
  Isn't Waze also displaying police forces ? Also by croudsourcing information ? Why is Apple not looking into that ?
- baq 7y ago
  My east european country has been governed by authoritarian rule which was 95% dependent on a totalitarian foreign nation state. You either don't understand what this means or are actively protecting a totalitarian dictatorship.

idlewords 7y ago

I know that because I've been attending Hong Kong protests for two months and talking to people. Off-duty police are not even tracked on the map, so I don't get your argument even if I accepted the false premise that attacks on police are common.

nneonneo 7y ago
I did not say that attacks on police were common. Indeed, I believe that any such attacks should be the work of a very small minority of protestors who would definitely not represent the whole. It’s clear that attacks against off-duty police officers have happened in the past, so I included that aside as an example of the threats that police face. Of course those attacks predate the map app. Those are also the kinds of attacks that tend to make news, because they’re essentially attacks against civilians (similarly, this is why news of police attacks against civilians make news).

oarsinsync 7y ago

One of the problems being faced in HK is that there are times when it's difficult to identify when the police are HK police, or when the police are actually Chinese military in HK uniform. One of the signs (as it always is) is the footwear used by the officers differs between actual HK police and Chinese military forces in HK police uniform. Another problem is that there are times when it's difficult to identify when the protestors are HK citizens, or when the protestors are Chinese military in plain clothes. There was an incident a few weeks back where a fire was set outside Central MTR station which was reported to have been set by HK protestors. There was graffiti on the wall to this effect. The graffiti was written in simplified Chinese, which is used in the mainland. In Hong Kong, they use traditional Chinese in written communications. The difficulty is in accurate attribution. Terrorist groups will take credit for atrocities they didn't commit because it's beneficial for them and their cause. Which then leads down the rabbit hole of asking who benefits from violence in HK? It's also worth looking at the history of protests in HK, how frequently they have occurred, and how often violence has actually erupted. It's a country that successfully peacefully protested numerous times, to great effect. > The way things are going, though, I don’t see how else this can go. Fortunately, the people in HK don't share this view, and continue to protest for their rights and their freedoms. They're not giving up, they're not giving in. It's easy to be this pessimistic when you live in a western country, where peaceful protests in recent history (~20 years or so) are almost completely ineffective. When you've lived in a place where peaceful protests have historically been effective, it's a different story. Especially when it's literally your own life on the line.

idlewords 7y ago
There is zero evidence of covert mainland Chinese participation in the protests on either side, although as you demonstrate the rumors about it are nonstop.
powerapple 7y ago
lol. HK police and protests are staying at home watching tvs, there are just mainlanders on street both damaging properties and arresting themselves.