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China Is Forcing Tech Companies to Choose Between Profits and Free Speech

105 points by jimmy2020 7y ago

svrtknst 7y ago
Yes, and the choice is embarrassingly simple, especially for multi-million - or billion - companies.
dear 7y ago
"Short Term Profits and Long Term Death" vs Free Speech
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  How do you figure? Is it your impression that being ethical is generally good for corporations financially? You're much more optimistic about both the way the economy works and other people than i am. (I should note that I'm not a believer in the "corporations automatically behave soulless and corrupt" camp that's so popular; I just think that your comment's implication goes too far in the other direction)
  - dear 7y ago
    You don't understand how things work in China. It has nothing to do with ethics. You give up free speech so you can make a few bucks in China. But in the long run they will only let their own companies thrive. Those the communist party can control. You will be eaten alive.
    - discoverfly 7y ago
      How do you know how things work in China? It's not about free speech. It's about boycotting the support of splitting a country. If a company says that American Civil War and Lincoln is evil and illegal. It's free speech. How American think about it?
      - Knove 7y ago
        right! It's not about free speech. It's about boycotting the support of splitting a country!!!
        jimmy2020 7y ago
        So what do you think of Gulag? A rehabilitation camp keeping the union united against the enemies of the state.
        NicoJuicy 7y ago
        1 country, 2 systems. It's more like boycotting dictatorship
      - powerapple 7y ago
        I don't think that's a good example. No one cares about Lincoln. Culture difference. You cannot offend America as a whole, but definitely many chances to offend groups of Americans. And the consequences would be similar to this. Offending other countries is free of speech to all Americans, because no one inside America would complain. All media care about is the complaint letters, phone calls to their call center and politicians.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        China isn’t really that different. The people getting offended just have lots of power.
        neverartful 7y ago
        'No one cares about Lincoln.' Really?!! I beg to differ. He is considered the greatest president our country has ever had. He did everything he could to keep the country together during a very tenuous time. I do think that some people care about Lincoln.
      - thawaway1837 7y ago
        Lol. South Park has made fun of America and Lincoln many times. They’re still making videos and broadcasting them on national TV in the US. But a comparison to Winnie the Pooh is apparently something The Chinese premier can not handle.
    - wutbrodo 7y ago
      Oh sure, we've seen that pattern play out enough that I totally buy it. But "operating in China for some period of time" is still more profitable than "not operating there at all/leaving early for ethical reasons". The claim that kowtowing to their illiberal demands is short term gains and long term losses doesn't make any sense.
      - yellowapple 7y ago
        You're only addressing one side of the equation (i.e. the Chinese customers) and ignoring the other side (i.e. the non-Chinese customers). That's where the long-term death happens; if you alienate US customers in favor of Chinese customers (which is exactly what's happening right now), and then China shoves you out anyway in favor of Chinese businesses (which they inevitably will), then congrats, now you're worse off.
PeterStuer 7y ago
The article states that "We’ve grown used to Americans getting fired for social media posts that offend other Americans. Now it’s clear they can also be punished for posts that offend China.". Seems like companies were forced to make and have made that choice long before the China issue.
- jimmy2020 7y ago
  Do you think what's going on inside US politics is the same in China? I mean, have you ever heard about Americans getting fired because of supporting protest? Or is there anything similar to the situation in Hong Kong?
  - syshum 7y ago
    >>I mean, have you ever heard about Americans getting fired because of supporting protest? Yes... If you support Libertarian or Conservative things
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Instances? The only thing that comes to my mind is Brendon Eich at Mozilla. And even then, it wasn’t so much as being fired as being squeezed out of the CEO slot.
      - testACCT321 7y ago
        That is being fired at top levels of the corporate world. Lots of "resignations" "stepping down", etc. Not a bunch of firing.
    - jimmy2020 7y ago
      Sure, but it's still part of political process that is complicated and in some cases eliminating other views. But cannot compare it to the communist China and thank goodness there are no special camps in US to educate people until the regime thinks they are eligible to be free.
    - 7y ago
qubex 7y ago
The obvious answer is: companies’ profit motive should not be allowed to impact people’s rights. They’re just not even remotely comparable.
ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
Here is my github repository tracking who chose what path https://github.com/caffeine-overload/bandinchina https://github.com/caffeine-overload/bandinchina The list of corporations who stood up to China is very short unfortunately

105 points by jimmy2020 7y ago

svrtknst 7y ago

Yes, and the choice is embarrassingly simple, especially for multi-million - or billion - companies.

dear 7y ago

"Short Term Profits and Long Term Death" vs Free Speech

wutbrodo 7y ago
How do you figure? Is it your impression that being ethical is generally good for corporations financially? You're much more optimistic about both the way the economy works and other people than i am. (I should note that I'm not a believer in the "corporations automatically behave soulless and corrupt" camp that's so popular; I just think that your comment's implication goes too far in the other direction)
- dear 7y ago
  You don't understand how things work in China. It has nothing to do with ethics. You give up free speech so you can make a few bucks in China. But in the long run they will only let their own companies thrive. Those the communist party can control. You will be eaten alive.
  - discoverfly 7y ago
    How do you know how things work in China? It's not about free speech. It's about boycotting the support of splitting a country. If a company says that American Civil War and Lincoln is evil and illegal. It's free speech. How American think about it?
    - Knove 7y ago
      right! It's not about free speech. It's about boycotting the support of splitting a country!!!
      - jimmy2020 7y ago
        So what do you think of Gulag? A rehabilitation camp keeping the union united against the enemies of the state.
      - NicoJuicy 7y ago
        1 country, 2 systems. It's more like boycotting dictatorship
    - powerapple 7y ago
      I don't think that's a good example. No one cares about Lincoln. Culture difference. You cannot offend America as a whole, but definitely many chances to offend groups of Americans. And the consequences would be similar to this. Offending other countries is free of speech to all Americans, because no one inside America would complain. All media care about is the complaint letters, phone calls to their call center and politicians.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        China isn’t really that different. The people getting offended just have lots of power.
      - neverartful 7y ago
        'No one cares about Lincoln.' Really?!! I beg to differ. He is considered the greatest president our country has ever had. He did everything he could to keep the country together during a very tenuous time. I do think that some people care about Lincoln.
    - thawaway1837 7y ago
      Lol. South Park has made fun of America and Lincoln many times. They’re still making videos and broadcasting them on national TV in the US. But a comparison to Winnie the Pooh is apparently something The Chinese premier can not handle.
  - wutbrodo 7y ago
    Oh sure, we've seen that pattern play out enough that I totally buy it. But "operating in China for some period of time" is still more profitable than "not operating there at all/leaving early for ethical reasons". The claim that kowtowing to their illiberal demands is short term gains and long term losses doesn't make any sense.
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      You're only addressing one side of the equation (i.e. the Chinese customers) and ignoring the other side (i.e. the non-Chinese customers). That's where the long-term death happens; if you alienate US customers in favor of Chinese customers (which is exactly what's happening right now), and then China shoves you out anyway in favor of Chinese businesses (which they inevitably will), then congrats, now you're worse off.

PeterStuer 7y ago

The article states that "We’ve grown used to Americans getting fired for social media posts that offend other Americans. Now it’s clear they can also be punished for posts that offend China.". Seems like companies were forced to make and have made that choice long before the China issue.

jimmy2020 7y ago
Do you think what's going on inside US politics is the same in China? I mean, have you ever heard about Americans getting fired because of supporting protest? Or is there anything similar to the situation in Hong Kong?
- syshum 7y ago
  >>I mean, have you ever heard about Americans getting fired because of supporting protest? Yes... If you support Libertarian or Conservative things
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Instances? The only thing that comes to my mind is Brendon Eich at Mozilla. And even then, it wasn’t so much as being fired as being squeezed out of the CEO slot.
    - testACCT321 7y ago
      That is being fired at top levels of the corporate world. Lots of "resignations" "stepping down", etc. Not a bunch of firing.
  - jimmy2020 7y ago
    Sure, but it's still part of political process that is complicated and in some cases eliminating other views. But cannot compare it to the communist China and thank goodness there are no special camps in US to educate people until the regime thinks they are eligible to be free.
  - 7y ago

qubex 7y ago

The obvious answer is: companies’ profit motive should not be allowed to impact people’s rights. They’re just not even remotely comparable.

ourlordcaffeine 7y ago

Here is my github repository tracking who chose what path https://github.com/caffeine-overload/bandinchina https://github.com/caffeine-overload/bandinchina The list of corporations who stood up to China is very short unfortunately