6 ms·

I hate this attitude. It's the same attitude that anything that happens on a computer is work because someone uses a computer at work. I also use chairs and des

I hate this attitude. It's the same attitude that anything that happens on a computer is work because someone uses a computer at work. I also use chairs and desks and toilets at work and I eat food at work and talk to people at work and walk to diffenent places at work so I guess walking, sitting, talking to people, pooping etc all all work. No, rather a computer is a general purpose device on which I can make music, listen to music, edit video, watch moives, learn a new language, look up recipies, talk to friends, chat with experts on all kinds of topics. I don't stop using the computer "because I use it at work" The same is true of programming and side progects. Programming is not work. Programming is something I do at work like I alos talk to people at work, sit at work, walk at work, eat at work, write emails at work, chat at work. Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it. I might not enjoy certain things I do at work but that has nothing to do with "programming" and everything to do with goals or don't believe in or busy work for the sake of busy work or having to do things someway I don't agree with, all of which disappear on my own stuff.

tehjoker 7y ago
Taking time away from socializing and actually resting will eventually take its toll. I tried following the HN advice in this regard for a few years in the late oughts. Spending so much time working on programming and little else was lonely and punishing, even though I liked what I was working on.
rifung 7y ago
> Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it I think that's totally awesome =] However in the post itself, the reasons listed for doing a side project include making money and learning new skills. One of those things is literally the thing that defines work, and the other is something that many would assume is for work. I believe that's where this animosity towards the expectation of side projects comes from. If you want to do it and would do it without any benefits to your career, then definitely it is purely fun and in the same class as meditation or hanging out with friends. However, if you argue that you should do it to make money, personally I would say that's no longer in the same class of things as hanging out with friends. Indeed programming for the sake of learning and programming for the sake of enjoyment are two different things I'd say. It's like when people comment how it must be so relaxing to practice piano; no it's probably fun and relaxing to play but practicing is very boring and frustrating.
- _ftvx 7y ago
  we should just call it out as it is - companies that only hire people who have side projects just want cog employees who will prioritize that over literally every aspect of their life under the guise of "passion"
dorkwood 7y ago
If I came home from band practice and spent all night writing music and playing my guitar, people would say "wow, that guy is so passionate and creative". But since my craft involves a computer, they instead say "you're going to burn yourself out. You should get a different hobby." The computer is a tool. It's the tool that I use to create things, and that creativity gives me life. I don't think people without creative hobbies can really understand this.
- blub 7y ago
  I don't think people in general can really understand this. Especially now that tablets and smartphones have achieved such success, computers are probably used mostly for work. Not necessarily a job, but tasks and duties. The programming "interface" is more or less staring at text on a monitor and clicking on buttons. All the creative work is hidden and the interface is complete crap... How can that be perceived as fun or creative by someone looking from the outside? Music making always had an aura of coolness, so even if a professional musician were to do that, maybe people would not see it as work.
- frgmntdmmrs 7y ago
  ...nobody is saying this.
- didibus 7y ago
  Band practice isn't equivalent to music work. It would be more like being on tour, and coming home to play some more. Which I doubt musicians do. Most I've heard find touring pretty taxing. From my musician friends too, I seldom see them ever spending more than 8 hours a day doing music. As music work isn't really 9 to 5 style. Here we're talking having done an 8 to 10 hour day programming, Monday through Friday, and then spending even more once home and on weekends. Now, I happen to be, maybe as you are, someone who is passionate about CS. So I do actually do it as a hobby and as work. I just don't believe everyone should, and I don't want to make it the norm that you have too, because if that was the case, my doing it as a hobby for myself would now become me doing it cause I have too for employability. It's also not my only hobby, I found that when it was, it did in fact slowly overwork my mind. I'd slowly start sleeping later, waking earlier, having issues falling asleep because I'd always be thinking about my problems. A few hours before bed, switching to a non thinking hobby has been really nice for me. I agree with you about the stigma though. I think if anything, I'd like to encourage non-programmers to pick up programming as a hobby. It's a great creative outlet, and the computer is a tool. It can be very rewarding and so much fun. Plus, for many, it could translate into a better career for them. As a programmer though, I think it's just up to you, but definitely you shouldn't have too. Just my opinion.
blub 7y ago
Whether something's like work is also defined by one's profession. If you're a professional pooper, to take one of your examples, and you decided to do some pooping after work - that would count as work-like, because you're doing something very similar to your job. Especially if it'a a side-project, which implies planning and goal setting. Of course if one is just aimlessly messing around then it becomes less like work.
feketegy 7y ago
I'm starting a new side project from scratch and wanted to explore new architectural approaches, heck, I can't sleep all night, because I'm so excited. When you get money for programming, that's work, but programming in itself can be both fun and work. A side-project you do for yourself should be fun and exciting.

tehjoker 7y ago

Taking time away from socializing and actually resting will eventually take its toll. I tried following the HN advice in this regard for a few years in the late oughts. Spending so much time working on programming and little else was lonely and punishing, even though I liked what I was working on.

rifung 7y ago

> Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it I think that's totally awesome =] However in the post itself, the reasons listed for doing a side project include making money and learning new skills. One of those things is literally the thing that defines work, and the other is something that many would assume is for work. I believe that's where this animosity towards the expectation of side projects comes from. If you want to do it and would do it without any benefits to your career, then definitely it is purely fun and in the same class as meditation or hanging out with friends. However, if you argue that you should do it to make money, personally I would say that's no longer in the same class of things as hanging out with friends. Indeed programming for the sake of learning and programming for the sake of enjoyment are two different things I'd say. It's like when people comment how it must be so relaxing to practice piano; no it's probably fun and relaxing to play but practicing is very boring and frustrating.

_ftvx 7y ago
we should just call it out as it is - companies that only hire people who have side projects just want cog employees who will prioritize that over literally every aspect of their life under the guise of "passion"

dorkwood 7y ago

If I came home from band practice and spent all night writing music and playing my guitar, people would say "wow, that guy is so passionate and creative". But since my craft involves a computer, they instead say "you're going to burn yourself out. You should get a different hobby." The computer is a tool. It's the tool that I use to create things, and that creativity gives me life. I don't think people without creative hobbies can really understand this.

blub 7y ago
I don't think people in general can really understand this. Especially now that tablets and smartphones have achieved such success, computers are probably used mostly for work. Not necessarily a job, but tasks and duties. The programming "interface" is more or less staring at text on a monitor and clicking on buttons. All the creative work is hidden and the interface is complete crap... How can that be perceived as fun or creative by someone looking from the outside? Music making always had an aura of coolness, so even if a professional musician were to do that, maybe people would not see it as work.
frgmntdmmrs 7y ago
...nobody is saying this.
didibus 7y ago
Band practice isn't equivalent to music work. It would be more like being on tour, and coming home to play some more. Which I doubt musicians do. Most I've heard find touring pretty taxing. From my musician friends too, I seldom see them ever spending more than 8 hours a day doing music. As music work isn't really 9 to 5 style. Here we're talking having done an 8 to 10 hour day programming, Monday through Friday, and then spending even more once home and on weekends. Now, I happen to be, maybe as you are, someone who is passionate about CS. So I do actually do it as a hobby and as work. I just don't believe everyone should, and I don't want to make it the norm that you have too, because if that was the case, my doing it as a hobby for myself would now become me doing it cause I have too for employability. It's also not my only hobby, I found that when it was, it did in fact slowly overwork my mind. I'd slowly start sleeping later, waking earlier, having issues falling asleep because I'd always be thinking about my problems. A few hours before bed, switching to a non thinking hobby has been really nice for me. I agree with you about the stigma though. I think if anything, I'd like to encourage non-programmers to pick up programming as a hobby. It's a great creative outlet, and the computer is a tool. It can be very rewarding and so much fun. Plus, for many, it could translate into a better career for them. As a programmer though, I think it's just up to you, but definitely you shouldn't have too. Just my opinion.

blub 7y ago

Whether something's like work is also defined by one's profession. If you're a professional pooper, to take one of your examples, and you decided to do some pooping after work - that would count as work-like, because you're doing something very similar to your job. Especially if it'a a side-project, which implies planning and goal setting. Of course if one is just aimlessly messing around then it becomes less like work.

feketegy 7y ago

I'm starting a new side project from scratch and wanted to explore new architectural approaches, heck, I can't sleep all night, because I'm so excited. When you get money for programming, that's work, but programming in itself can be both fun and work. A side-project you do for yourself should be fun and exciting.