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I like it, especially that you have that as the trial salary for all positions (seems like a good shared experience). If someone is optimizing to maximize a fe

by breck 7y ago

I like it, especially that you have that as the trial salary for all positions (seems like a good shared experience). If someone is optimizing to maximize a few weeks of trial pay, probably not the best fit. Also, keep in mind that $25/hour is almost double the median wage of the USA. The software world is a bubble right now. By all means, I advocate to take advantage of that and save up, but don't get angry when a company's wages aren't 10x that of a non-software role. Sure, you can make a lot more money going to a company that earns a lot of money (generally via exploitation of unfair intellectual monopoly laws) while creating little surplus value for the world, or you can join a company like Wordpress that creates far more value for the world than they capture.

dpau 7y ago
So it's OK to ask developers to sacrifice 1-3 months of their time working without benefits for at least 50% less than what they would normally be getting paid at any other company simply because $25/hr is more than the median wage in the US? I'm simply surprised that anyone worth their salt would submit to such a lopsided transaction! Good on Automattic for taking advantage of the situation, though?
- breck 7y ago
  Money is what you capture, value is what you create. A lot of people are willing to take a pay cut to create more value for the world. It's too bad that things are so out of whack, but in tech right now, those 2 things are very uncorrelated (the prime reason from the data I've seen is unjust intellectual monopoly laws). If you are a YOUNG developer, I would say go take the money! Good times won't last. If you are instead more concerned about what value you are creating for the world, there are a some well known great places to work (WordPress, Wikipedia, Mozilla come to mind but there are many many more often in research, government, or academia).
  - ykevinator 7y ago
    He said don't get hung up on it.
scarface74 7y ago
I’ve been a software developer since 1999. (before then I was a half developer/half operator for 3 years while going to graduate school). I have never made less than $25 hour. So if there is a “bubble” it’s been going for two decades for me - and this is in Atlanta.
- breck 7y ago
  Thanks for the data point. I also have been a programmer since 2008 or so and don’t think I’ve ever made that either. But I also have done a lot of unpaid programming interviews and/or take home assignments. And also generally have worked at places with strict Intellectual Monopoly assignment agreements. So that’s why I think this particular offer isn’t so bad.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    $45K was the average going salary in 1999 for 2-3 years of experience in Atlanta as your bog standard corporate developer. The average salary for a college graduate now is $50K (https://www.thebalance.com/college-graduate-salaries-expectations-vs-reality-4142305 https://www.thebalance.com/college-graduate-salaries-expecta...)
    - beefalo 7y ago
      50k seems really low for new grads today even in Atlanta.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        I conflated two numbers. Everyone was mentioning that $25 is twice the average wage in America (which is a little off). If you use what I feel is a more accurate baseline - the average wage of a college grad in any area across the country. $50K is a better number.
adventured 7y ago
> keep in mind that $25/hour is almost double the median wage of the USA. The software world is a bubble right now. That's not the correct comparison. The median full-time wage in the US is closer to $50,000 (~$47k-$54k depending on what adjustments you're using). The median software developer salary is around $107,000 +/-. The median wage overall includes part-time labor for example and people working very few hours. That considerably lowers the number versus what developers would expect to see, given the extremely low unemployment rate for tech workers (they overwhelmingly tend to work full-time jobs).

by breck 7y ago

dpau 7y ago

So it's OK to ask developers to sacrifice 1-3 months of their time working without benefits for at least 50% less than what they would normally be getting paid at any other company simply because $25/hr is more than the median wage in the US? I'm simply surprised that anyone worth their salt would submit to such a lopsided transaction! Good on Automattic for taking advantage of the situation, though?

breck 7y ago
Money is what you capture, value is what you create. A lot of people are willing to take a pay cut to create more value for the world. It's too bad that things are so out of whack, but in tech right now, those 2 things are very uncorrelated (the prime reason from the data I've seen is unjust intellectual monopoly laws). If you are a YOUNG developer, I would say go take the money! Good times won't last. If you are instead more concerned about what value you are creating for the world, there are a some well known great places to work (WordPress, Wikipedia, Mozilla come to mind but there are many many more often in research, government, or academia).
- ykevinator 7y ago
  He said don't get hung up on it.

scarface74 7y ago

I’ve been a software developer since 1999. (before then I was a half developer/half operator for 3 years while going to graduate school). I have never made less than $25 hour. So if there is a “bubble” it’s been going for two decades for me - and this is in Atlanta.

breck 7y ago
Thanks for the data point. I also have been a programmer since 2008 or so and don’t think I’ve ever made that either. But I also have done a lot of unpaid programming interviews and/or take home assignments. And also generally have worked at places with strict Intellectual Monopoly assignment agreements. So that’s why I think this particular offer isn’t so bad.
- scarface74 7y ago
  $45K was the average going salary in 1999 for 2-3 years of experience in Atlanta as your bog standard corporate developer. The average salary for a college graduate now is $50K (https://www.thebalance.com/college-graduate-salaries-expectations-vs-reality-4142305 https://www.thebalance.com/college-graduate-salaries-expecta...)
  - beefalo 7y ago
    50k seems really low for new grads today even in Atlanta.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      I conflated two numbers. Everyone was mentioning that $25 is twice the average wage in America (which is a little off). If you use what I feel is a more accurate baseline - the average wage of a college grad in any area across the country. $50K is a better number.

adventured 7y ago

> keep in mind that $25/hour is almost double the median wage of the USA. The software world is a bubble right now. That's not the correct comparison. The median full-time wage in the US is closer to $50,000 (~$47k-$54k depending on what adjustments you're using). The median software developer salary is around $107,000 +/-. The median wage overall includes part-time labor for example and people working very few hours. That considerably lowers the number versus what developers would expect to see, given the extremely low unemployment rate for tech workers (they overwhelmingly tend to work full-time jobs).