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> Calling our rights "privilege" is throwing out the struggle and sacrifice of everyone that fought for those rights. But isn't it the very definition of privi

> Calling our rights "privilege" is throwing out the struggle and sacrifice of everyone that fought for those rights. But isn't it the very definition of privilege, when through no effort of your own you get to enjoy the benefits for which others have "fought", "struggled", and "sacrificed"? How is it different from the privilege of being born into a rich (or just functional) family? > You may have been Lucky to have been born in the US, but not Privileged It looks like the word "privileged", through all these fights on social media, has got a bad rep :-) How is being privileged different than being lucky?

IllogicalLogic 7y ago
> Calling our rights "privilege" is throwing out the struggle and sacrifice of everyone that fought for those rights. Next South Park should do an episode that shows how greedy western leaders running opium/heroin for the better part of now two centuries, turned the most populous country into a paranoid dictatorial hellhole for the Chinese people. US introspection would be too on the nose? You ever ask yourself what percentage of the heroin/opium supply would be pulled off the market if China could extradite people from HK? More than 50%... and who gets hurt by that?
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> But isn't it the very definition of privilege, when through no effort of your own you get to enjoy the benefits for which others have "fought", "struggled", and "sacrificed"? How is it different from the privilege of being born into a rich (or just functional) family? The reason this framing is despicable is that rights and privileges are not the same. Being able to afford a Lexus is a privilege. Not everyone has it and that's OK. Having access to clean water is a right. Not everyone has it and that's not OK. Free speech is a right. Everyone should have it even if some people currently don't.
- tdb7893 7y ago
  I think that this distinction isn't widely understood as the definition of privilege. If you look it up in a dictionary privileges you'll see a lot of definitions where privileges are defined as a special case of rights so they are most definitely not mutually exclusive https://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege https://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    That's just reinforcing the point. Privilege is a special "right" rather than a universal one that should be held by everyone, something like the right to be called doctor (held only by someone with a doctorate) as opposed to the right to due process (which should be held by everyone). Due process is a human right in a way that having a title is not.
    - tdb7893 7y ago
      Due process should be accessible to everyone but until that's actually the case it's still a privilege of the people who have it. The fact that other people should have it doesn't mean it's not a privilege to the people that do. (It's still a right by the way, as I said it can be both) Edit: Anyway, I don't feel the need to argue this since it's just a semantic argument but the general thesis is that I found your narrow definition of privilege to be surprising compared to how I've experienced people using it but English differs over geography so idk.
      - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
        I think the heart of this is the is/ought distinction. When you have a right to free speech and then someone puts you in jail for exercising it, it isn't that you don't have the right, it's that your right is being infringed. Calling it a privilege that you don't have any time someone is infringing on your rights would mean that nobody's rights could ever be infringed, since any time they were infringed it would merely mean that you didn't have them to begin with. But you do. People have human rights even when someone is violating them.
- delecti 7y ago
  Being able to afford a Lexus is a privilege, but it is not an example of capital-P "Privilege" [1]. Not every lower-case p privilege (perk) is an example of capital-P Privilege. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    The point is the opposite -- not every right is a privilege. Some are inalienable and their denial is a human rights violation rather than merely an instance of economic disparity.
    - andrepd 7y ago
      That a right is "inalienable" is a construction such as any other right or privilege. A social construction enforced by solid institutions. You only have the "right to life" (however inalienable you think it to be) because there is a whole system of laws, courts, government, law enforcement, that grants you that right in practice.
      - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
        Everything is a social construction. Does that mean we should descend into relativistic nihilism, or that authoritarianism is acceptable merely because it exists? Human rights are defended when we as humans refuse to stand idly by while they are violated. Which is why it's still important to identify the lines that are not to be crossed. Muddling the fundamental safeguards that allow a free society to exist with the petty jealousy of who has a bigger house is only a boon to the despots who would tear those safeguards down.
      - AcerbicZero 7y ago
        You're conflating the existence of a right, with the freedom to exercise that right. Just because a government/society/group/etc infringes upon your ability to exercise your natural right does not mean it doesn't exist. The concept that the rights of the individual are derived from the individual is the basis for a lot of classical liberalism/enlightenment thinking, which in turn is the basis for most of today's modern governments.
- aeternum 7y ago
  You can't just say free speech is a right. Every country including the US has restrictions on speech to varying degrees. The US draws the line at true threats, and inciting imminent lawless action, among others. New Zealand now draws the line at simply sharing a manifesto along with anything else decreed by the Chief Censor. China is much more strict, but who's to say where the line should be drawn? Not even western governments agree.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    If you ask ten different cartographers to create a map of the world, you'll get ten different maps. That hardly proves that the world doesn't exist. We decide where the line should be drawn through argument and public debate, and by refusing to comply with weaker definitions from anyone who can't convince us using reason that where they want to draw the line is actually in the interest of the people.
- azangru 7y ago
  You speak of privilege as an absolute category; I was thinking in more relative terms. If you take two people, of whom one has access to clean water and the other doesn’t — wouldn't you say that the first is in a more privileged position than the second?
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    So I'll tell you why I really hate the term in this context. The common usage is to describe an unfair inequality. One person is feeding steak to their dog while another is starving. The spirit of the accusation is that the better off person is too well off and we need to even it out by knocking them down -- since we can't feed steak to every dog, since we can't give everyone a private jet and a mansion and a harem, the people who have those things are contemptible for not giving them up to help the less fortunate. Human rights don't work like that. It isn't the case that people in free countries could help out people in authoritarian countries by giving up some of their free speech if only they weren't so greedy and selfish. They're not using up all the free speech so that nobody else can have any. It's possible for more people to have free speech, and due process, and clean water, without taking any of it away from anybody who currently has it already. Which makes the relativistic comparison counterproductive. It isn't a zero sum game. China should have it independent of whether or not New Zealand or America does, and they could all fully have it at the same time.
    - azangru 7y ago
      > The common usage is to describe an unfair inequality. > The spirit of the accusation Yes, this is indeed the common usage, which I find extremely puzzling. The word "privilege" has become somewhat of a pejorative term — an accusation rather than a statement of fact. It seems to have a stronger negative connotation than the word "luck", or the word "advantage", although it has a very similar semantics. I wonder how long this has been the case. Has this bundle of negative connotations come to be associated with this word during the latest culture wars (and if so, I would like to push back against this automatic "spirit of accusation" against those who happen to be in the privileged position), or is there a much longer tradition of such usage? > It's possible for more people to have free speech, and due process, and clean water, without taking any of it away from anybody who currently has it already. Of course it is. I am surprised that the presupposition is that a privileged person is necessarily taking something away from an unprivileged one.
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
If I google privilege definition google tells me 'a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group. "education is a right, not a privilege"' Obviously whoever wrote that should be penalized because they mucked it up with their example, if privilege is a special right then how is education a right not a privilege? But anyway, a privilege is something that is understood as something you have been given. The American Constitution holds that rights are something that one possesses innately, although a cynic might wonder what the difference is I think a close reading leads to the understanding that when a right is taken away it is by nature wicked that such a thing should be done, whereas the removal of a privilege would not be automatically unjust. Thus by the American conception of things every human has the right to free speech, that China takes that away from it's citizens thus not make American's privileged - it makes China bad and its citizens oppressed for having their rights removed. on edit: sorry about the many typos, not going to fix though as I am dealing with pneumonia and near bed time.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  Kindergarten and first grade might be rights, but if students don't graduate they learn that later levels are privileges?
- Volundr 7y ago
  Education is a right to all, not a particular person or group, hence not a privilege.
  - munk-a 7y ago
    But specialized education and the extent of that education is a privilege. Not everyone has access to the same levels of education.
    - dekhn 7y ago
      Absolutely. For example, in the 4th grade, my group ("advanced" students) was allowed to test for a Gifted and Talented program (only the students in the "highest" level of classes could take the test). The G&T program was basically training for grad school: indepdent study, project-based learning, access to computers and internet when they were rare, etc. That training made a huge impact on my career (I am a post-scientist ML expert at a large internet company). I mentioned the program to some folks I went to school with and they pointed out this G&T program was not ever offered to them. Interestingly, these kinds of systems end up being important for the long-term success of a country. but at the same time they tend to perpetuate privilege. Students who weren't in the highest level of classes weren't even given a chance to take the test

IllogicalLogic 7y ago

> Calling our rights "privilege" is throwing out the struggle and sacrifice of everyone that fought for those rights. Next South Park should do an episode that shows how greedy western leaders running opium/heroin for the better part of now two centuries, turned the most populous country into a paranoid dictatorial hellhole for the Chinese people. US introspection would be too on the nose? You ever ask yourself what percentage of the heroin/opium supply would be pulled off the market if China could extradite people from HK? More than 50%... and who gets hurt by that?

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

> But isn't it the very definition of privilege, when through no effort of your own you get to enjoy the benefits for which others have "fought", "struggled", and "sacrificed"? How is it different from the privilege of being born into a rich (or just functional) family? The reason this framing is despicable is that rights and privileges are not the same. Being able to afford a Lexus is a privilege. Not everyone has it and that's OK. Having access to clean water is a right. Not everyone has it and that's not OK. Free speech is a right. Everyone should have it even if some people currently don't.

tdb7893 7y ago
I think that this distinction isn't widely understood as the definition of privilege. If you look it up in a dictionary privileges you'll see a lot of definitions where privileges are defined as a special case of rights so they are most definitely not mutually exclusive https://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege https://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  That's just reinforcing the point. Privilege is a special "right" rather than a universal one that should be held by everyone, something like the right to be called doctor (held only by someone with a doctorate) as opposed to the right to due process (which should be held by everyone). Due process is a human right in a way that having a title is not.
  - tdb7893 7y ago
    Due process should be accessible to everyone but until that's actually the case it's still a privilege of the people who have it. The fact that other people should have it doesn't mean it's not a privilege to the people that do. (It's still a right by the way, as I said it can be both) Edit: Anyway, I don't feel the need to argue this since it's just a semantic argument but the general thesis is that I found your narrow definition of privilege to be surprising compared to how I've experienced people using it but English differs over geography so idk.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      I think the heart of this is the is/ought distinction. When you have a right to free speech and then someone puts you in jail for exercising it, it isn't that you don't have the right, it's that your right is being infringed. Calling it a privilege that you don't have any time someone is infringing on your rights would mean that nobody's rights could ever be infringed, since any time they were infringed it would merely mean that you didn't have them to begin with. But you do. People have human rights even when someone is violating them.
delecti 7y ago
Being able to afford a Lexus is a privilege, but it is not an example of capital-P "Privilege" [1]. Not every lower-case p privilege (perk) is an example of capital-P Privilege. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  The point is the opposite -- not every right is a privilege. Some are inalienable and their denial is a human rights violation rather than merely an instance of economic disparity.
  - andrepd 7y ago
    That a right is "inalienable" is a construction such as any other right or privilege. A social construction enforced by solid institutions. You only have the "right to life" (however inalienable you think it to be) because there is a whole system of laws, courts, government, law enforcement, that grants you that right in practice.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      Everything is a social construction. Does that mean we should descend into relativistic nihilism, or that authoritarianism is acceptable merely because it exists? Human rights are defended when we as humans refuse to stand idly by while they are violated. Which is why it's still important to identify the lines that are not to be crossed. Muddling the fundamental safeguards that allow a free society to exist with the petty jealousy of who has a bigger house is only a boon to the despots who would tear those safeguards down.
    - AcerbicZero 7y ago
      You're conflating the existence of a right, with the freedom to exercise that right. Just because a government/society/group/etc infringes upon your ability to exercise your natural right does not mean it doesn't exist. The concept that the rights of the individual are derived from the individual is the basis for a lot of classical liberalism/enlightenment thinking, which in turn is the basis for most of today's modern governments.
aeternum 7y ago
You can't just say free speech is a right. Every country including the US has restrictions on speech to varying degrees. The US draws the line at true threats, and inciting imminent lawless action, among others. New Zealand now draws the line at simply sharing a manifesto along with anything else decreed by the Chief Censor. China is much more strict, but who's to say where the line should be drawn? Not even western governments agree.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  If you ask ten different cartographers to create a map of the world, you'll get ten different maps. That hardly proves that the world doesn't exist. We decide where the line should be drawn through argument and public debate, and by refusing to comply with weaker definitions from anyone who can't convince us using reason that where they want to draw the line is actually in the interest of the people.
azangru 7y ago
You speak of privilege as an absolute category; I was thinking in more relative terms. If you take two people, of whom one has access to clean water and the other doesn’t — wouldn't you say that the first is in a more privileged position than the second?
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  So I'll tell you why I really hate the term in this context. The common usage is to describe an unfair inequality. One person is feeding steak to their dog while another is starving. The spirit of the accusation is that the better off person is too well off and we need to even it out by knocking them down -- since we can't feed steak to every dog, since we can't give everyone a private jet and a mansion and a harem, the people who have those things are contemptible for not giving them up to help the less fortunate. Human rights don't work like that. It isn't the case that people in free countries could help out people in authoritarian countries by giving up some of their free speech if only they weren't so greedy and selfish. They're not using up all the free speech so that nobody else can have any. It's possible for more people to have free speech, and due process, and clean water, without taking any of it away from anybody who currently has it already. Which makes the relativistic comparison counterproductive. It isn't a zero sum game. China should have it independent of whether or not New Zealand or America does, and they could all fully have it at the same time.
  - azangru 7y ago
    > The common usage is to describe an unfair inequality. > The spirit of the accusation Yes, this is indeed the common usage, which I find extremely puzzling. The word "privilege" has become somewhat of a pejorative term — an accusation rather than a statement of fact. It seems to have a stronger negative connotation than the word "luck", or the word "advantage", although it has a very similar semantics. I wonder how long this has been the case. Has this bundle of negative connotations come to be associated with this word during the latest culture wars (and if so, I would like to push back against this automatic "spirit of accusation" against those who happen to be in the privileged position), or is there a much longer tradition of such usage? > It's possible for more people to have free speech, and due process, and clean water, without taking any of it away from anybody who currently has it already. Of course it is. I am surprised that the presupposition is that a privileged person is necessarily taking something away from an unprivileged one.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

If I google privilege definition google tells me 'a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group. "education is a right, not a privilege"' Obviously whoever wrote that should be penalized because they mucked it up with their example, if privilege is a special right then how is education a right not a privilege? But anyway, a privilege is something that is understood as something you have been given. The American Constitution holds that rights are something that one possesses innately, although a cynic might wonder what the difference is I think a close reading leads to the understanding that when a right is taken away it is by nature wicked that such a thing should be done, whereas the removal of a privilege would not be automatically unjust. Thus by the American conception of things every human has the right to free speech, that China takes that away from it's citizens thus not make American's privileged - it makes China bad and its citizens oppressed for having their rights removed. on edit: sorry about the many typos, not going to fix though as I am dealing with pneumonia and near bed time.

jessaustin 7y ago
Kindergarten and first grade might be rights, but if students don't graduate they learn that later levels are privileges?
Volundr 7y ago
Education is a right to all, not a particular person or group, hence not a privilege.
- munk-a 7y ago
  But specialized education and the extent of that education is a privilege. Not everyone has access to the same levels of education.
  - dekhn 7y ago
    Absolutely. For example, in the 4th grade, my group ("advanced" students) was allowed to test for a Gifted and Talented program (only the students in the "highest" level of classes could take the test). The G&T program was basically training for grad school: indepdent study, project-based learning, access to computers and internet when they were rare, etc. That training made a huge impact on my career (I am a post-scientist ML expert at a large internet company). I mentioned the program to some folks I went to school with and they pointed out this G&T program was not ever offered to them. Interestingly, these kinds of systems end up being important for the long-term success of a country. but at the same time they tend to perpetuate privilege. Students who weren't in the highest level of classes weren't even given a chance to take the test