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Building a side project is work, spending time with family, camping, going on trips isn't. It's not so much that we can't accept that some people enjoy working

by blub 7y ago

Building a side project is work, spending time with family, camping, going on trips isn't. It's not so much that we can't accept that some people enjoy working, it's that they're screwing their health. There is no free lunch, staring at monitors for years on end will take its toll. Gaming and watching TV aren't healthy for computer workers either.

archi42 7y ago
I partially agree with you: The notion of "programming as a hobby" starts to fade for some once they're doing this professionally. Since I'm working 40h/week as a software engineer I find much less motivation to do PC related stuff (this includes gaming). That was different, I used to do random programming after school just because I could. During university this became less. However, I do enjoy most of my work, so there is that. And this is why I originally started studying physics - I wanted to keep programming as a hobby, but figured out I probably wouldn't really enjoy working in physics and then switched to CS. Regarding health: I think with this you're wrong. It depends on the "how much". Staring at a monitor 8h at work, driving home, stare at a TV/monitor another 6h munching fast food, go to bed, wake up, repeat; this is probably quite bad. But get home by bike or foot (if feasible), program/game/watch TV for an hour or two, go outside, do some sport, reduce unhealthy food, and you can probably get by quite fine.
- nirui 7y ago
  > The notion of "programming as a hobby" starts to fade for some once they're doing this professionally. Well, I still do code as hobby. The thing is writing code for company is not always fun, for example, your company use React and you want to try Vue, the only way to do it is create hobby projects of your own. And there are other benefits as well, for example, if your project is useful, it may open new opportunities for you, showcase your abilities, let you make friends and maybe even allow you to directly make money from it. > I find much less motivation to do PC related stuff Me too, sometimes. But personally I usually found the main reason for me to lost motivation is when I realized the project I'm working on is useless -- No body will use it even I released it, so I just stopped working on it. But you know what, some of my abandoned code can be reused when I have new ideas, so I count all of it as sleeping gold (Or maybe sleeping bug, depends on production results :)
forbiddenvoid 7y ago
To be fair, I consider going on trips and camping to be work. But I agree, there are ways to balance things, but you have to choose. You can't have everything (work, side project, family, health, hobbies) at 100% and be the best version of your self long term.
s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
No, building a side project is fun. Camping, family, and trips are work. Professional programming sometimes diminishes the passion, I have to have side projects to keep it alive.
nitely 7y ago
> Building a side project is work I'd say it's nothing like work. There's no stress, no deadlines, no fixed hours, no team work, etc. For many people programming is a hobby, something that's fun and they are not paid to do, they don't do it for the money, but for self-fulfillment. Not everyone find that at work, and even if they do, they may choose to spend a few hours a week building something for themselves, to scratch an itch or whatever. > It's not so much that we can't accept that some people enjoy working, it's that they're screwing their health. There is no free lunch, staring at monitors for years on end will take its toll. I doubt 50hs of screen time is a lot worse than 40hs, but I'd need data to prove/disprove it. However, you don't even need to spend that much time, it could be just a few hours a week.
- nkingsy 7y ago
  No stress??? That’s been my main issue with side projects. It feels stressful in the same way that work does. The stresses of piano or bike repair wear on a different part of my brain and body.
  - nitely 7y ago
    Sorry, I can only speak for myself.
- mooreds 7y ago
  I wrote about side projects here: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2019/08/02/personal-projects-make-you-a-better-developer/ https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2019/08/02/personal-proje... It seems to me that you can treat side projects like work, but you shouldn't. Side projects should be about scratching an itch that can't be done at work, whether that is the domain, technology or some other aspect. If your side project is like work, pick a different side project. If every side project is like work, as is so for some commenters, then take some time off from them. Or don't do them and forgo the benefits.
dusted 7y ago
> Building a side project is work, spending time with family, camping, going on trips isn't. No, work is work, side-project is a hobby,it's done for recreation, for example to do some stuff you can't find a reasonable excuse to do at work. To explore and enjoy yourself doing what you love. That's also the only reason to have one.. Doing _ANYTHING_ is work if you look at it wrong enough.
- blub 7y ago
  Work, as in effort, tasks, projects is opposed to leisure, as in peace & quiet, recreation and relaxation. Work doesn't just refer to performing a job in exchange for money. Even the term side-project contradicts the idea of leisure. It implies goals, a plan of action and tasks that have to be done.
phkahler 7y ago
>> Building a side project is work I agree, but... I used to do them for fun, for the challenge, to learn, to prove to myself that I could do it. I've recently been working on an existing open source project. I do so because I like the software and want it to be better. I also have the background to contribute in areas that haven't been touched in years. While its voluntary and feels like a side project, it's still work. These things are all work, it's just a question of why we choose to do them. Maybe the other commenters that dont see it as work have a bit to learn about their own motivations?
tomashubelbauer 7y ago
Side projects are the only reason I'm able to continue working professionally precisely because they are not work. Everything about them is different from work. Programming is a great hobby and in my experience turning it into your job destroys it as a hobby. Working on a side project is to find a new avenue for programming as a hobby, so they you can continue programming for money because that's the most feasible way to make money as a programmer, but can also program freely without project managers, conflicting requirements, deadlines, slow/non-communicative/differently-visioned colleagues/customers/bosses on your side projects.
rasz 7y ago
>Building a side project is work for you it is, for me and many others its fun/hobby. This is why side projects are such a strong signal to competent recruiters -this person actually likes what he does and will put passion into his work.
- astura 7y ago
  Just cause someone codes for fun outside of work doesn't mean that they will put passion into their work. Furthermore, just because someone doesn't code for fun outside of work doesn't mean they won't put passion into their work. I could even make a case that people who don't spend their free time coding make better employees than those who do - the employer wants the employee to spend their mental energy on work, not personal projects. The vast majority of people who are going to give you a high quality 9-5 aren't going home to program, and it would be very bad business to discount them. (The only person I knew of who coded outside of work was honestly a bad employee. I wouldn't use that case to discount others who code for fun outside of work.)
  - finnmagic 7y ago
    What the employer wants? You could give the employer everything they want for years and welcome yourself as outdated and underskilled for any other job. The employee needs to look out for what is best for the employee’s life. That only moderately aligns with what is best for the employer — often they are opposed. Jobs don’t typically last 35 years with the same company anymore. Skills need to be enhanced beyond what the current employer needs. Side project freedom gives you the power to pick any skills you want to enhance and run with it.
- jlokier 7y ago
  Heh. I used to put way too much effort into open source and side projects, and this made me a terrible employee -- I was always too tired at work, because I'd stay up late the night before, coding side projects! Although that could be just me, I think it's a common problem.
chrisseaton 7y ago
I don't understand why one thing is work and another isn't.
- taneq 7y ago
  In my book, work is that which, when it stops being fun, you still have to do.
greggman2 7y ago
I hate this attitude. It's the same attitude that anything that happens on a computer is work because someone uses a computer at work. I also use chairs and desks and toilets at work and I eat food at work and talk to people at work and walk to diffenent places at work so I guess walking, sitting, talking to people, pooping etc all all work. No, rather a computer is a general purpose device on which I can make music, listen to music, edit video, watch moives, learn a new language, look up recipies, talk to friends, chat with experts on all kinds of topics. I don't stop using the computer "because I use it at work" The same is true of programming and side progects. Programming is not work. Programming is something I do at work like I alos talk to people at work, sit at work, walk at work, eat at work, write emails at work, chat at work. Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it. I might not enjoy certain things I do at work but that has nothing to do with "programming" and everything to do with goals or don't believe in or busy work for the sake of busy work or having to do things someway I don't agree with, all of which disappear on my own stuff.
- tehjoker 7y ago
  Taking time away from socializing and actually resting will eventually take its toll. I tried following the HN advice in this regard for a few years in the late oughts. Spending so much time working on programming and little else was lonely and punishing, even though I liked what I was working on.
- rifung 7y ago
  > Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it I think that's totally awesome =] However in the post itself, the reasons listed for doing a side project include making money and learning new skills. One of those things is literally the thing that defines work, and the other is something that many would assume is for work. I believe that's where this animosity towards the expectation of side projects comes from. If you want to do it and would do it without any benefits to your career, then definitely it is purely fun and in the same class as meditation or hanging out with friends. However, if you argue that you should do it to make money, personally I would say that's no longer in the same class of things as hanging out with friends. Indeed programming for the sake of learning and programming for the sake of enjoyment are two different things I'd say. It's like when people comment how it must be so relaxing to practice piano; no it's probably fun and relaxing to play but practicing is very boring and frustrating.
mk89 7y ago
Why should it be work? Work is what I am paid for. Anything else is either your human needs or hobbies. I prefer a colleague's response to my question whether he has side projects: I don't like to do the same as I do (at work) here when I am home. It's an incorrect answer, but at least it doesn't imply side projects are work.
- blub 7y ago
  No it's not just what you're paid for, I've already clarified this for two other commenters. Grab a dictionary and you'll see something along "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result". Unless your side projects have no purpose or goals, they are a form of work and they require effort.
  - mk89 7y ago
    How is it different from playing music, reading books or DIY hobbies? I don't get it.

by blub 7y ago

archi42 7y ago

I partially agree with you: The notion of "programming as a hobby" starts to fade for some once they're doing this professionally. Since I'm working 40h/week as a software engineer I find much less motivation to do PC related stuff (this includes gaming). That was different, I used to do random programming after school just because I could. During university this became less. However, I do enjoy most of my work, so there is that. And this is why I originally started studying physics - I wanted to keep programming as a hobby, but figured out I probably wouldn't really enjoy working in physics and then switched to CS. Regarding health: I think with this you're wrong. It depends on the "how much". Staring at a monitor 8h at work, driving home, stare at a TV/monitor another 6h munching fast food, go to bed, wake up, repeat; this is probably quite bad. But get home by bike or foot (if feasible), program/game/watch TV for an hour or two, go outside, do some sport, reduce unhealthy food, and you can probably get by quite fine.

nirui 7y ago
> The notion of "programming as a hobby" starts to fade for some once they're doing this professionally. Well, I still do code as hobby. The thing is writing code for company is not always fun, for example, your company use React and you want to try Vue, the only way to do it is create hobby projects of your own. And there are other benefits as well, for example, if your project is useful, it may open new opportunities for you, showcase your abilities, let you make friends and maybe even allow you to directly make money from it. > I find much less motivation to do PC related stuff Me too, sometimes. But personally I usually found the main reason for me to lost motivation is when I realized the project I'm working on is useless -- No body will use it even I released it, so I just stopped working on it. But you know what, some of my abandoned code can be reused when I have new ideas, so I count all of it as sleeping gold (Or maybe sleeping bug, depends on production results :)

forbiddenvoid 7y ago

To be fair, I consider going on trips and camping to be work. But I agree, there are ways to balance things, but you have to choose. You can't have everything (work, side project, family, health, hobbies) at 100% and be the best version of your self long term.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago

No, building a side project is fun. Camping, family, and trips are work. Professional programming sometimes diminishes the passion, I have to have side projects to keep it alive.

nitely 7y ago

> Building a side project is work I'd say it's nothing like work. There's no stress, no deadlines, no fixed hours, no team work, etc. For many people programming is a hobby, something that's fun and they are not paid to do, they don't do it for the money, but for self-fulfillment. Not everyone find that at work, and even if they do, they may choose to spend a few hours a week building something for themselves, to scratch an itch or whatever. > It's not so much that we can't accept that some people enjoy working, it's that they're screwing their health. There is no free lunch, staring at monitors for years on end will take its toll. I doubt 50hs of screen time is a lot worse than 40hs, but I'd need data to prove/disprove it. However, you don't even need to spend that much time, it could be just a few hours a week.

nkingsy 7y ago
No stress??? That’s been my main issue with side projects. It feels stressful in the same way that work does. The stresses of piano or bike repair wear on a different part of my brain and body.
- nitely 7y ago
  Sorry, I can only speak for myself.
mooreds 7y ago
I wrote about side projects here: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2019/08/02/personal-projects-make-you-a-better-developer/ https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2019/08/02/personal-proje... It seems to me that you can treat side projects like work, but you shouldn't. Side projects should be about scratching an itch that can't be done at work, whether that is the domain, technology or some other aspect. If your side project is like work, pick a different side project. If every side project is like work, as is so for some commenters, then take some time off from them. Or don't do them and forgo the benefits.

dusted 7y ago

> Building a side project is work, spending time with family, camping, going on trips isn't. No, work is work, side-project is a hobby,it's done for recreation, for example to do some stuff you can't find a reasonable excuse to do at work. To explore and enjoy yourself doing what you love. That's also the only reason to have one.. Doing _ANYTHING_ is work if you look at it wrong enough.

blub 7y ago
Work, as in effort, tasks, projects is opposed to leisure, as in peace & quiet, recreation and relaxation. Work doesn't just refer to performing a job in exchange for money. Even the term side-project contradicts the idea of leisure. It implies goals, a plan of action and tasks that have to be done.

phkahler 7y ago

>> Building a side project is work I agree, but... I used to do them for fun, for the challenge, to learn, to prove to myself that I could do it. I've recently been working on an existing open source project. I do so because I like the software and want it to be better. I also have the background to contribute in areas that haven't been touched in years. While its voluntary and feels like a side project, it's still work. These things are all work, it's just a question of why we choose to do them. Maybe the other commenters that dont see it as work have a bit to learn about their own motivations?

tomashubelbauer 7y ago

Side projects are the only reason I'm able to continue working professionally precisely because they are not work. Everything about them is different from work. Programming is a great hobby and in my experience turning it into your job destroys it as a hobby. Working on a side project is to find a new avenue for programming as a hobby, so they you can continue programming for money because that's the most feasible way to make money as a programmer, but can also program freely without project managers, conflicting requirements, deadlines, slow/non-communicative/differently-visioned colleagues/customers/bosses on your side projects.

rasz 7y ago

>Building a side project is work for you it is, for me and many others its fun/hobby. This is why side projects are such a strong signal to competent recruiters -this person actually likes what he does and will put passion into his work.

astura 7y ago
Just cause someone codes for fun outside of work doesn't mean that they will put passion into their work. Furthermore, just because someone doesn't code for fun outside of work doesn't mean they won't put passion into their work. I could even make a case that people who don't spend their free time coding make better employees than those who do - the employer wants the employee to spend their mental energy on work, not personal projects. The vast majority of people who are going to give you a high quality 9-5 aren't going home to program, and it would be very bad business to discount them. (The only person I knew of who coded outside of work was honestly a bad employee. I wouldn't use that case to discount others who code for fun outside of work.)
- finnmagic 7y ago
  What the employer wants? You could give the employer everything they want for years and welcome yourself as outdated and underskilled for any other job. The employee needs to look out for what is best for the employee’s life. That only moderately aligns with what is best for the employer — often they are opposed. Jobs don’t typically last 35 years with the same company anymore. Skills need to be enhanced beyond what the current employer needs. Side project freedom gives you the power to pick any skills you want to enhance and run with it.
jlokier 7y ago
Heh. I used to put way too much effort into open source and side projects, and this made me a terrible employee -- I was always too tired at work, because I'd stay up late the night before, coding side projects! Although that could be just me, I think it's a common problem.

chrisseaton 7y ago

I don't understand why one thing is work and another isn't.

taneq 7y ago
In my book, work is that which, when it stops being fun, you still have to do.

greggman2 7y ago

I hate this attitude. It's the same attitude that anything that happens on a computer is work because someone uses a computer at work. I also use chairs and desks and toilets at work and I eat food at work and talk to people at work and walk to diffenent places at work so I guess walking, sitting, talking to people, pooping etc all all work. No, rather a computer is a general purpose device on which I can make music, listen to music, edit video, watch moives, learn a new language, look up recipies, talk to friends, chat with experts on all kinds of topics. I don't stop using the computer "because I use it at work" The same is true of programming and side progects. Programming is not work. Programming is something I do at work like I alos talk to people at work, sit at work, walk at work, eat at work, write emails at work, chat at work. Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it. I might not enjoy certain things I do at work but that has nothing to do with "programming" and everything to do with goals or don't believe in or busy work for the sake of busy work or having to do things someway I don't agree with, all of which disappear on my own stuff.

tehjoker 7y ago
Taking time away from socializing and actually resting will eventually take its toll. I tried following the HN advice in this regard for a few years in the late oughts. Spending so much time working on programming and little else was lonely and punishing, even though I liked what I was working on.
rifung 7y ago
> Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it I think that's totally awesome =] However in the post itself, the reasons listed for doing a side project include making money and learning new skills. One of those things is literally the thing that defines work, and the other is something that many would assume is for work. I believe that's where this animosity towards the expectation of side projects comes from. If you want to do it and would do it without any benefits to your career, then definitely it is purely fun and in the same class as meditation or hanging out with friends. However, if you argue that you should do it to make money, personally I would say that's no longer in the same class of things as hanging out with friends. Indeed programming for the sake of learning and programming for the sake of enjoyment are two different things I'd say. It's like when people comment how it must be so relaxing to practice piano; no it's probably fun and relaxing to play but practicing is very boring and frustrating.

mk89 7y ago

Why should it be work? Work is what I am paid for. Anything else is either your human needs or hobbies. I prefer a colleague's response to my question whether he has side projects: I don't like to do the same as I do (at work) here when I am home. It's an incorrect answer, but at least it doesn't imply side projects are work.

blub 7y ago
No it's not just what you're paid for, I've already clarified this for two other commenters. Grab a dictionary and you'll see something along "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result". Unless your side projects have no purpose or goals, they are a form of work and they require effort.
- mk89 7y ago
  How is it different from playing music, reading books or DIY hobbies? I don't get it.