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If they weren't, how on Earth would you know? Being anything other than publicly "overwhelmingly supportive of the government" gets you killed. I believe many

by dTal 7y ago

If they weren't, how on Earth would you know? Being anything other than publicly "overwhelmingly supportive of the government" gets you killed. I believe many Chinese citizens are aware that their situation is not ideal ("oppressed" is probably not quite the right word), because I believe at least some subset of Chinese citizens are not brainwashed morons and any idiot can see what's going on. If they really had overwhelming support, they wouldn't need to censor so hard. Banning images of Winnie the Pooh demonstrates weakness.

jaynetics 7y ago
> any idiot can see what's going on Yes? Would you want to try circumventing the great firewall without getting caught? I fear the Chinese are mostly supportive. Most Germans also supported Hitler before things went awry, and his election results were superb even before massive manipulation began. There was still a substantial minority that didn't support him and resisted at great personal cost, much like some educated Chinese citizens are resisting at great personal cost now, knowing that many share their sentiments, but assuming that most people will find a way to look beyond the propaganda seems overly optimistic to me.
- dekhn 7y ago
  Don't large numbers of professional chinese who work on the internet use VPNs to get around the firewall? My insight into this comes mainly from professional Chinese scientists who were previously trained in the US but returned to China because there were better scientific opportunities. Many of them have told me (in person, while visitng the US) that they have to use VPNs to get their work done, and as long as they are relatively cautious, circumspect, and don't repeat what they see to others, they are tolerated.
  - LinuxBender 7y ago
    Some Chinese companies are allowed to bypass the great firewall, but only if they demonstrate that they comply with the governments monitoring and filtering requirements themselves. I know of a couple companies that are in this category. They don't need VPN's. They have circuits to all continents, but they are also just as vigilant as their government. They are also required to provide all encryption keys. I am not naming names.
- dTal 7y ago
  >some educated Chinese citizens are resisting at great personal cost now, knowing that many share their sentiments It seems we agree. >assuming that most people will find a way to look beyond the propaganda seems overly optimistic to me. Most people? Yes, that would be overly optimistic. But enough people to render "overwhelming support" inaccurate? Not overly optimistic at all.
Roark66 7y ago
I think many Chinese citizens are taught from a very young age a carefully crafted ideology that tells them that their country used to be oppressed by the west, that the west despises them and looks down at them because they are Chinese. At the same time they are taught Chinese people couldn't handle the kind of "freedom" that exists in the west because politically the country would fracture and chaos would ensue, also if weapons were available as they are in many western countries people would be killed on the streets etc. If personal freedoms were respected criminals and terrorists that hide behind them couldn't be dealt with effectively and the only thing that stands between the people of China and anarchy is the communist party. This ideology is a mix of national pride with intentionally planted feelings of being inferior and resentment towards the west for their historic "crimes". This results in a mindset that acknowledges democracy and freedom is better in the west, but it could never work in China and West's attempts to bring it to China are actually cynical attempts to destroy everything China's achieved in recent decades wealth and military power-wise. When the majority of the people think as described above the only thing that can bring change is an economic downturn, but would that change be for the better or would it be in the direction the North Korea is taking?
- cestith 7y ago
  To be fair, the Chinese have in fact been treated horribly many times in many places by many other countries including at least the US and Japan.
  - hasntotherp 7y ago
    But hasn’t other people been treated worst? The country of India, the entire continent of Africa, and how about all the Native Americans? Do we need to hold grudges from our grandparents parents? According to that logic, the world forever would be in a mode of revenge seeking. I always find this argument preposterous as someone ethnically Chinese hearing it from a nationalistic Chinese, 10 years younger, from China full of fervour. What exactly have they experience in life that is so full of hardship? To me, it seems like a convenient excuse to brush away any criticism of their actions. No one can criticise them because of what X and Y did to them 150 years ago. Seems like a cop out to me. I suspect the Chinese government has something to do with this mentality.
deleted 7y ago
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by dTal 7y ago

jaynetics 7y ago

> any idiot can see what's going on Yes? Would you want to try circumventing the great firewall without getting caught? I fear the Chinese are mostly supportive. Most Germans also supported Hitler before things went awry, and his election results were superb even before massive manipulation began. There was still a substantial minority that didn't support him and resisted at great personal cost, much like some educated Chinese citizens are resisting at great personal cost now, knowing that many share their sentiments, but assuming that most people will find a way to look beyond the propaganda seems overly optimistic to me.

dekhn 7y ago
Don't large numbers of professional chinese who work on the internet use VPNs to get around the firewall? My insight into this comes mainly from professional Chinese scientists who were previously trained in the US but returned to China because there were better scientific opportunities. Many of them have told me (in person, while visitng the US) that they have to use VPNs to get their work done, and as long as they are relatively cautious, circumspect, and don't repeat what they see to others, they are tolerated.
- LinuxBender 7y ago
  Some Chinese companies are allowed to bypass the great firewall, but only if they demonstrate that they comply with the governments monitoring and filtering requirements themselves. I know of a couple companies that are in this category. They don't need VPN's. They have circuits to all continents, but they are also just as vigilant as their government. They are also required to provide all encryption keys. I am not naming names.
dTal 7y ago
>some educated Chinese citizens are resisting at great personal cost now, knowing that many share their sentiments It seems we agree. >assuming that most people will find a way to look beyond the propaganda seems overly optimistic to me. Most people? Yes, that would be overly optimistic. But enough people to render "overwhelming support" inaccurate? Not overly optimistic at all.

Roark66 7y ago

I think many Chinese citizens are taught from a very young age a carefully crafted ideology that tells them that their country used to be oppressed by the west, that the west despises them and looks down at them because they are Chinese. At the same time they are taught Chinese people couldn't handle the kind of "freedom" that exists in the west because politically the country would fracture and chaos would ensue, also if weapons were available as they are in many western countries people would be killed on the streets etc. If personal freedoms were respected criminals and terrorists that hide behind them couldn't be dealt with effectively and the only thing that stands between the people of China and anarchy is the communist party. This ideology is a mix of national pride with intentionally planted feelings of being inferior and resentment towards the west for their historic "crimes". This results in a mindset that acknowledges democracy and freedom is better in the west, but it could never work in China and West's attempts to bring it to China are actually cynical attempts to destroy everything China's achieved in recent decades wealth and military power-wise. When the majority of the people think as described above the only thing that can bring change is an economic downturn, but would that change be for the better or would it be in the direction the North Korea is taking?

cestith 7y ago
To be fair, the Chinese have in fact been treated horribly many times in many places by many other countries including at least the US and Japan.
- hasntotherp 7y ago
  But hasn’t other people been treated worst? The country of India, the entire continent of Africa, and how about all the Native Americans? Do we need to hold grudges from our grandparents parents? According to that logic, the world forever would be in a mode of revenge seeking. I always find this argument preposterous as someone ethnically Chinese hearing it from a nationalistic Chinese, 10 years younger, from China full of fervour. What exactly have they experience in life that is so full of hardship? To me, it seems like a convenient excuse to brush away any criticism of their actions. No one can criticise them because of what X and Y did to them 150 years ago. Seems like a cop out to me. I suspect the Chinese government has something to do with this mentality.

deleted 7y ago

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