10 ms·

Absolutely agree, it's time for American video games to stop publishing in China. It's not worth the Chinese influence on our society.

Shivetya 7y ago
American video games? What about American companies that have factories there or other presence there? Hello Apple! Hello Tesla! Hello Google. Blizzard has been bending over backwards for some time with regards to China but this is the first time I remember them taking action against someone who does not work for them. the simple matter is, you cannot pick and choose, all the companies must be shamed into not bending to China's censorship because it won't be long before such actions suddenly show in law; not that some of the speech regulations in the EU aren't close as it is with regards to what you can and cannot say with regards to religions
- missosoup 7y ago
  What factories? Everyone already has or currently is moving manufacturing operations from China to Viet Nam or India. 5 more years and the only factories China will have are going to be domestic.
  - echelon 7y ago
    If we're going to repeat the same cycle with Vietnam and India, we'd do well to encourage democracy this go-around. If we elevate authoritarian countries to our level, democracy may be in for a rough future. We should be learning a lot from the China situation. Modern China proves that authoritarian capitalism works and that you don't need freedom or liberty for your citizens. And that's incredibly scary. Imagine if that meme spreads to democratic countries... We need to be handling this situation with urgency. As bad and as pressing an issue as climate change is, this is much more terrifying.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      India actually has a functioning democracy. Many Indian intellectuals are unhappy with their current PM, but plenty of American intellectuals are unhappy with their president, and America will still have an election next year (the point being, the system still works even if your favorite person doesn't get elected, which is stronger evidence of systemic health than the system working when your favorite person does get elected). I have a lot of hope for their future. Vietnam is controlled by a one-party system, but even they are not as bad as China. (They may become as bad as China, but at least it's another roll of the dice, or for the people who live there another chance to act.)
      - selimthegrim 7y ago
        Right to internet access was recently construed as fundamental under articles 21 and 21 A of the constitution of India by Kerala high court but is currently not extended to all “integral parts of India” https://thewire.in/government/home-ministry-believes-in-internet-ban-mass-detention-but-not-in-paperwork https://thewire.in/government/home-ministry-believes-in-inte...
      - treis 7y ago
        >India actually has a functioning democracy. Democracy or not what they're doing in Kashmir is worse that what China is doing in Hong Kong.
        gfdgsgaagrhstrs 7y ago
        Yeah seriously... The HK situation is not good, but they haven't enforced a police state yet. People here lack so much perspective on geopolitical issues.
    - marcosdumay 7y ago
      > Modern China proves that authoritarian capitalism works For some definition of "works". China has recently (2017) became richer than Brazil, what is a feat, but well, Brazil isn't a liberal democratic paradise and whatever democracy we have is very recent. All the stable democratic countries are much richer than China.
  - travisgriggs 7y ago
    I've wondered about this. Are there sourceable numbers in this? Is it the case that a couple newsworthy departures are giving the impression that everyone's leaving? Or is it the case that these are exceptions in the statistical noise?
    - dba7dba 7y ago
      Just few days HN had a thread where samsung moved its last phone factory from China to Vietnam.
    - therealdrag0 7y ago
      Anecdote: My friends at Apple and Tesla are very much still building up factories in China.
  - iamaelephant 7y ago
    Tesla is literally opening their Shanghai Gigafactory this year.
- rtkwe 7y ago
  For companies using China for manufacturing it's less visible than entertainment companies like the NBA and Blizzard (to choose the two most recent examples) who are bending to China on censorship so it's natural the big hits would come from those companies actively censoring personalities rather than those just quietly not doing something because of China.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- GooglyMoogly 7y ago
  Google is blocked in China for refusing to censor what China wants. Bing works in China.
  - nolok 7y ago
    And it brings them absolutely no good really, either in good will or cash, which is a good lesson for others not to take the same stand if the country they hail from doesn't do it as a whole.
  - goblin89 7y ago
    Google Translate, Maps work in China, for example. Google Maps in particular, when viewed within the country, follows ruling party line on where to draw the borders[0], though it is not a practice they apply to China exclusively. [0] https://qz.com/224821/see-how-borders-change-on-google-maps-depending-on-where-you-view-them/ https://qz.com/224821/see-how-borders-change-on-google-maps-...
  - jimclegg 7y ago
    China will consider it a favor if you block your own "offensive" company from the Chinese market.
    - GooglyMoogly 7y ago
      Google used to obey China's censorship requests, and was allowed in China. Then Google decided to stop obeying the requests, and China blocked Google. You're saying that China was happy about that because China wanted Google out anyway and needed an excuse? If China didn't need an excuse, China could have blocked Google from the start. China has blocked things it considers offensive without an explicit action from that party (such as Winnie the Pooh). If Google was obeying China's censorship, what would China find offensive about Google? Does China find a similar level of offensiveness in the NBA and Blizzard, such that China is disappointed that they censored themselves and thus China doesn't have an excuse to block them?
ndury 7y ago
These studio's should not stop publishing their games in China. The issue lies that these studio's happily comply with whatever restrictions a govt is willing to oblige due to possibly playerbase loss. Think lootboxes, forbidden skins in regions, exc... exc.. Companies as big as Blizzard should be prepared to lose 5/10/15% of their playerbase to defend free speech, the thing is they do not care about free speech. All these companies care about is revenue.
- wbl 7y ago
  Lootboxes are one thing. But I doubt an aircraft simulator with a Taiwan Straits scenario would be massively published, or a Wolfenstein set in a Xinjiang reeducation camp. Would Amazon stop selling 1984 if China asked it to? Hopefully not.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Amazon will not only stop stelling 1984, they will even remote-wipe 1984 from their customer's devices, all you need is a copyright claim. Jokes aside, I believe they would if China was a large enough market for them. They are complying with local laws, and often that means pulling a product world wide, because they don't want to go through the trouble of making sure it's only unavailable in the US. Since Amazon has never managed to gain traction in China, they likely don't care too much about China's wishes.
    - netule 7y ago
      This exact scenario actually happened in 2009: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18am... Irony of ironies.
      - wbl 7y ago
        I think GP knew that.
  - mypalmike 7y ago
everdev 7y ago
The same thing just happened in the NBA. I can't recall another time where supporting democracy has received such a backlash.
shadowgovt 7y ago
Nearly a billion potential customers can be worth a lot of cash, which can buy all sorts of influence in all sorts of places. For a struggling game company, it can also mean "winning the game," as it were. Outside of legal constraint (which is unlikely, since China is a US frenemy given the close international economic ties), it's unlikely we'll see the entertainment industry voluntarily embrace such a boycott anytime soon. Market's simply too big; too much money left on the table.
mbesto 7y ago
> It's not worth the Chinese influence on our society. US shareholders probably disagree.
- zentiggr 7y ago
  Then US shareholders need to be reminded of the fact that they are moral agents as well as financial ones. The reality is that while a "shareholder" title means you want dividends from your holdings, that title attaches to a real human being or entity run by human beings, and the moral or immoral consequences of your policy as shareholder DOES affect the world. It's time for shareholders to put their money where their morals are. And for those who choose to support immoral policies to be called on it.
  - reroute1 7y ago
    That could be a big conflict of interest though. What if the intelligent financial decision is not in line with your morals? I am all for people running away from investing in these companies, but in reality that is a conflicting request of an investor and not something anyone who is focusing on returns will have much patience for or interest in. I just don't think it's going to convince real investors.
    - zentiggr 7y ago
      Then you've identified the "real investors" who are exactly the class I'm talking about. If money is more important, and the cost to society less important, in their value system, they are as much a part of the problem as the actual perpetrators that they're paying. A conflict of interest indicates that you have a choice between two goals. Choose money, and you've lost my respect. And business, when it comes down to that.
gowld 7y ago
Most video game companies (and most companies) are not "American, they are "corporate" and have minimal national allegiance and minimal principles beyond "maximize shareholder value". The former is arguably defensible, as national governments are arbitrary borders and susceptible to corruption.
dang 7y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21190952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21190952.

Shivetya 7y ago

American video games? What about American companies that have factories there or other presence there? Hello Apple! Hello Tesla! Hello Google. Blizzard has been bending over backwards for some time with regards to China but this is the first time I remember them taking action against someone who does not work for them. the simple matter is, you cannot pick and choose, all the companies must be shamed into not bending to China's censorship because it won't be long before such actions suddenly show in law; not that some of the speech regulations in the EU aren't close as it is with regards to what you can and cannot say with regards to religions

missosoup 7y ago
What factories? Everyone already has or currently is moving manufacturing operations from China to Viet Nam or India. 5 more years and the only factories China will have are going to be domestic.
- echelon 7y ago
  If we're going to repeat the same cycle with Vietnam and India, we'd do well to encourage democracy this go-around. If we elevate authoritarian countries to our level, democracy may be in for a rough future. We should be learning a lot from the China situation. Modern China proves that authoritarian capitalism works and that you don't need freedom or liberty for your citizens. And that's incredibly scary. Imagine if that meme spreads to democratic countries... We need to be handling this situation with urgency. As bad and as pressing an issue as climate change is, this is much more terrifying.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    India actually has a functioning democracy. Many Indian intellectuals are unhappy with their current PM, but plenty of American intellectuals are unhappy with their president, and America will still have an election next year (the point being, the system still works even if your favorite person doesn't get elected, which is stronger evidence of systemic health than the system working when your favorite person does get elected). I have a lot of hope for their future. Vietnam is controlled by a one-party system, but even they are not as bad as China. (They may become as bad as China, but at least it's another roll of the dice, or for the people who live there another chance to act.)
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      Right to internet access was recently construed as fundamental under articles 21 and 21 A of the constitution of India by Kerala high court but is currently not extended to all “integral parts of India” https://thewire.in/government/home-ministry-believes-in-internet-ban-mass-detention-but-not-in-paperwork https://thewire.in/government/home-ministry-believes-in-inte...
    - treis 7y ago
      >India actually has a functioning democracy. Democracy or not what they're doing in Kashmir is worse that what China is doing in Hong Kong.
      - gfdgsgaagrhstrs 7y ago
        Yeah seriously... The HK situation is not good, but they haven't enforced a police state yet. People here lack so much perspective on geopolitical issues.
  - marcosdumay 7y ago
    > Modern China proves that authoritarian capitalism works For some definition of "works". China has recently (2017) became richer than Brazil, what is a feat, but well, Brazil isn't a liberal democratic paradise and whatever democracy we have is very recent. All the stable democratic countries are much richer than China.
- travisgriggs 7y ago
  I've wondered about this. Are there sourceable numbers in this? Is it the case that a couple newsworthy departures are giving the impression that everyone's leaving? Or is it the case that these are exceptions in the statistical noise?
  - dba7dba 7y ago
    Just few days HN had a thread where samsung moved its last phone factory from China to Vietnam.
  - therealdrag0 7y ago
    Anecdote: My friends at Apple and Tesla are very much still building up factories in China.
- iamaelephant 7y ago
  Tesla is literally opening their Shanghai Gigafactory this year.
rtkwe 7y ago
For companies using China for manufacturing it's less visible than entertainment companies like the NBA and Blizzard (to choose the two most recent examples) who are bending to China on censorship so it's natural the big hits would come from those companies actively censoring personalities rather than those just quietly not doing something because of China.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
GooglyMoogly 7y ago
Google is blocked in China for refusing to censor what China wants. Bing works in China.
- nolok 7y ago
  And it brings them absolutely no good really, either in good will or cash, which is a good lesson for others not to take the same stand if the country they hail from doesn't do it as a whole.
- goblin89 7y ago
  Google Translate, Maps work in China, for example. Google Maps in particular, when viewed within the country, follows ruling party line on where to draw the borders[0], though it is not a practice they apply to China exclusively. [0] https://qz.com/224821/see-how-borders-change-on-google-maps-depending-on-where-you-view-them/ https://qz.com/224821/see-how-borders-change-on-google-maps-...
- jimclegg 7y ago
  China will consider it a favor if you block your own "offensive" company from the Chinese market.
  - GooglyMoogly 7y ago
    Google used to obey China's censorship requests, and was allowed in China. Then Google decided to stop obeying the requests, and China blocked Google. You're saying that China was happy about that because China wanted Google out anyway and needed an excuse? If China didn't need an excuse, China could have blocked Google from the start. China has blocked things it considers offensive without an explicit action from that party (such as Winnie the Pooh). If Google was obeying China's censorship, what would China find offensive about Google? Does China find a similar level of offensiveness in the NBA and Blizzard, such that China is disappointed that they censored themselves and thus China doesn't have an excuse to block them?

ndury 7y ago

These studio's should not stop publishing their games in China. The issue lies that these studio's happily comply with whatever restrictions a govt is willing to oblige due to possibly playerbase loss. Think lootboxes, forbidden skins in regions, exc... exc.. Companies as big as Blizzard should be prepared to lose 5/10/15% of their playerbase to defend free speech, the thing is they do not care about free speech. All these companies care about is revenue.

wbl 7y ago
Lootboxes are one thing. But I doubt an aircraft simulator with a Taiwan Straits scenario would be massively published, or a Wolfenstein set in a Xinjiang reeducation camp. Would Amazon stop selling 1984 if China asked it to? Hopefully not.
- luckylion 7y ago
  Amazon will not only stop stelling 1984, they will even remote-wipe 1984 from their customer's devices, all you need is a copyright claim. Jokes aside, I believe they would if China was a large enough market for them. They are complying with local laws, and often that means pulling a product world wide, because they don't want to go through the trouble of making sure it's only unavailable in the US. Since Amazon has never managed to gain traction in China, they likely don't care too much about China's wishes.
  - netule 7y ago
    This exact scenario actually happened in 2009: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18am... Irony of ironies.
    - wbl 7y ago
      I think GP knew that.
- mypalmike 7y ago

everdev 7y ago

The same thing just happened in the NBA. I can't recall another time where supporting democracy has received such a backlash.

shadowgovt 7y ago

Nearly a billion potential customers can be worth a lot of cash, which can buy all sorts of influence in all sorts of places. For a struggling game company, it can also mean "winning the game," as it were. Outside of legal constraint (which is unlikely, since China is a US frenemy given the close international economic ties), it's unlikely we'll see the entertainment industry voluntarily embrace such a boycott anytime soon. Market's simply too big; too much money left on the table.

mbesto 7y ago

> It's not worth the Chinese influence on our society. US shareholders probably disagree.

zentiggr 7y ago
Then US shareholders need to be reminded of the fact that they are moral agents as well as financial ones. The reality is that while a "shareholder" title means you want dividends from your holdings, that title attaches to a real human being or entity run by human beings, and the moral or immoral consequences of your policy as shareholder DOES affect the world. It's time for shareholders to put their money where their morals are. And for those who choose to support immoral policies to be called on it.
- reroute1 7y ago
  That could be a big conflict of interest though. What if the intelligent financial decision is not in line with your morals? I am all for people running away from investing in these companies, but in reality that is a conflicting request of an investor and not something anyone who is focusing on returns will have much patience for or interest in. I just don't think it's going to convince real investors.
  - zentiggr 7y ago
    Then you've identified the "real investors" who are exactly the class I'm talking about. If money is more important, and the cost to society less important, in their value system, they are as much a part of the problem as the actual perpetrators that they're paying. A conflict of interest indicates that you have a choice between two goals. Choose money, and you've lost my respect. And business, when it comes down to that.

gowld 7y ago

Most video game companies (and most companies) are not "American, they are "corporate" and have minimal national allegiance and minimal principles beyond "maximize shareholder value". The former is arguably defensible, as national governments are arbitrary borders and susceptible to corruption.

dang 7y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21190952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21190952.