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>One wonders if there is an entire revolutionary class within China sharing South Park videos for freedom. I've noticed a trend on this site in particular wher

>One wonders if there is an entire revolutionary class within China sharing South Park videos for freedom. I've noticed a trend on this site in particular where we collectively wonder if our western media is a part of Chinese counter-culture. Is this hubris uniquely American?

olalonde 7y ago
That and the idea that Chinese citizens see themselves as oppressed. As crazy as it may seem to us, they're overwhelmingly supportive of their government.
- dTal 7y ago
  If they weren't, how on Earth would you know? Being anything other than publicly "overwhelmingly supportive of the government" gets you killed. I believe many Chinese citizens are aware that their situation is not ideal ("oppressed" is probably not quite the right word), because I believe at least some subset of Chinese citizens are not brainwashed morons and any idiot can see what's going on. If they really had overwhelming support, they wouldn't need to censor so hard. Banning images of Winnie the Pooh demonstrates weakness.
  - jaynetics 7y ago
    > any idiot can see what's going on Yes? Would you want to try circumventing the great firewall without getting caught? I fear the Chinese are mostly supportive. Most Germans also supported Hitler before things went awry, and his election results were superb even before massive manipulation began. There was still a substantial minority that didn't support him and resisted at great personal cost, much like some educated Chinese citizens are resisting at great personal cost now, knowing that many share their sentiments, but assuming that most people will find a way to look beyond the propaganda seems overly optimistic to me.
    - dekhn 7y ago
      Don't large numbers of professional chinese who work on the internet use VPNs to get around the firewall? My insight into this comes mainly from professional Chinese scientists who were previously trained in the US but returned to China because there were better scientific opportunities. Many of them have told me (in person, while visitng the US) that they have to use VPNs to get their work done, and as long as they are relatively cautious, circumspect, and don't repeat what they see to others, they are tolerated.
      - LinuxBender 7y ago
        Some Chinese companies are allowed to bypass the great firewall, but only if they demonstrate that they comply with the governments monitoring and filtering requirements themselves. I know of a couple companies that are in this category. They don't need VPN's. They have circuits to all continents, but they are also just as vigilant as their government. They are also required to provide all encryption keys. I am not naming names.
    - dTal 7y ago
      >some educated Chinese citizens are resisting at great personal cost now, knowing that many share their sentiments It seems we agree. >assuming that most people will find a way to look beyond the propaganda seems overly optimistic to me. Most people? Yes, that would be overly optimistic. But enough people to render "overwhelming support" inaccurate? Not overly optimistic at all.
  - Roark66 7y ago
    I think many Chinese citizens are taught from a very young age a carefully crafted ideology that tells them that their country used to be oppressed by the west, that the west despises them and looks down at them because they are Chinese. At the same time they are taught Chinese people couldn't handle the kind of "freedom" that exists in the west because politically the country would fracture and chaos would ensue, also if weapons were available as they are in many western countries people would be killed on the streets etc. If personal freedoms were respected criminals and terrorists that hide behind them couldn't be dealt with effectively and the only thing that stands between the people of China and anarchy is the communist party. This ideology is a mix of national pride with intentionally planted feelings of being inferior and resentment towards the west for their historic "crimes". This results in a mindset that acknowledges democracy and freedom is better in the west, but it could never work in China and West's attempts to bring it to China are actually cynical attempts to destroy everything China's achieved in recent decades wealth and military power-wise. When the majority of the people think as described above the only thing that can bring change is an economic downturn, but would that change be for the better or would it be in the direction the North Korea is taking?
    - cestith 7y ago
      To be fair, the Chinese have in fact been treated horribly many times in many places by many other countries including at least the US and Japan.
      - hasntotherp 7y ago
        But hasn’t other people been treated worst? The country of India, the entire continent of Africa, and how about all the Native Americans? Do we need to hold grudges from our grandparents parents? According to that logic, the world forever would be in a mode of revenge seeking. I always find this argument preposterous as someone ethnically Chinese hearing it from a nationalistic Chinese, 10 years younger, from China full of fervour. What exactly have they experience in life that is so full of hardship? To me, it seems like a convenient excuse to brush away any criticism of their actions. No one can criticise them because of what X and Y did to them 150 years ago. Seems like a cop out to me. I suspect the Chinese government has something to do with this mentality.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  >As crazy as it may seem to us, they're overwhelmingly supportive of their government. And North Korean's overwhelmingly praise the "Supreme Leader" with tears in their eyes. Ever see old video of Hitler addressing the masses? The people seem overwhelmingly supportive.
- rwj 7y ago
  And how was that measured? One of the lessons from the falls of authoritarian governments was how big a gap there was between public expressions of support and peoples' true feelings.
  - Steltek 7y ago
    That's a really good question. You can't realistically go door to door asking people if they support their oppressive government. How do marketing folks get a pulse with public expression of opinion or survey results? Click rates and referrers on controversial stories?
- hevi_jos 7y ago
  Not that hard to understand, given that the current government has increased their quality of life immensely. China comes from having the majority of its population starve, thanks to Mao. And before that there were 5 centuries of China going down that ended in things like USA ships patrolling its rivers, and Europeans their coast being in practice a colony and experiencing humiliation of watching external powers siphon out your wealth being too weak to protect yourself. When the tendency is good everything if fine. When the tendency goes down, things will change.
- dlivingston 7y ago
  I remember reading somewhere (The Atlantic, maybe?) that, while Western people highly value individualism, Chinese people value the collective. That may explain the ostensibly huge support for the PRC.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    The West used to value the collective, or community and society as we were more inclined to call it. The neoliberal experiment that started with Reagan and Thatcher put paid to that, and it's become all about the individual. Even when it is clearly to the detriment of individuals.
    - blaser-waffle 7y ago
      The neoliberal experiment that started with Reagan and Thatcher become all about specific individuals, those who already had big $$$
dTal 7y ago
Is Winnie the Pooh not Western media? Of course Western media is part of Chinese counter-culture. We live in a global society. The interesting question is how large a part - and which media?
senorjazz 7y ago
> Is this hubris uniquely American? Probably not, but evidence does point towards a general attitude of "surely everyone wants to be like us, we are the best country in the world afterall"
- corodra 7y ago
  >"surely everyone wants to be like us, we are the best country in the world afterall" To be fair, that's generated from many immigrants who come to the USA with the feeling that "this is the land of opportunities and freedom". Granted, when you come from somewhere like soviet occupied Poland, it doesn't really take much to find a land of opportunity and freedom. But other immigrants from other countries say the same. If you're an American and a majority of your experience with foreigners are the people that come in saying that, and one of their proudest days is becoming an American citizen, you generally get an idea that America is a pretty good country. As a first gen, I don't see American's having pride in their country as fully unwarranted. It's not like other countries are without their fuck ups.
rpmisms 7y ago
There's also the fact that western media is extremely popular in oppressed countries. For example: Osama Bin Laden loved Disney cartoons, and Kim Jong Un has a macOS lookalike linux distro on his computer.
- qnsi 7y ago
  I wonder if Kim Jong Un browses HN
guelo 7y ago
American pop culture entertainment is by far the most dominant worldwide.
Roark66 7y ago
Well, In the previous century when Eastern Europe was under Soviet occupation American and western media were a part of counter-culture. This was limited to records and books and near the end of that time also included VHS tapes. It is not that far fetched to imagine that what used to happen in communist countries 60 years ago could have its equivalent in today's China.
psychoslave 7y ago
Isn't it basically soft power that you are refering to? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power

olalonde 7y ago

That and the idea that Chinese citizens see themselves as oppressed. As crazy as it may seem to us, they're overwhelmingly supportive of their government.

dTal 7y ago
If they weren't, how on Earth would you know? Being anything other than publicly "overwhelmingly supportive of the government" gets you killed. I believe many Chinese citizens are aware that their situation is not ideal ("oppressed" is probably not quite the right word), because I believe at least some subset of Chinese citizens are not brainwashed morons and any idiot can see what's going on. If they really had overwhelming support, they wouldn't need to censor so hard. Banning images of Winnie the Pooh demonstrates weakness.
- jaynetics 7y ago
  > any idiot can see what's going on Yes? Would you want to try circumventing the great firewall without getting caught? I fear the Chinese are mostly supportive. Most Germans also supported Hitler before things went awry, and his election results were superb even before massive manipulation began. There was still a substantial minority that didn't support him and resisted at great personal cost, much like some educated Chinese citizens are resisting at great personal cost now, knowing that many share their sentiments, but assuming that most people will find a way to look beyond the propaganda seems overly optimistic to me.
  - dekhn 7y ago
    Don't large numbers of professional chinese who work on the internet use VPNs to get around the firewall? My insight into this comes mainly from professional Chinese scientists who were previously trained in the US but returned to China because there were better scientific opportunities. Many of them have told me (in person, while visitng the US) that they have to use VPNs to get their work done, and as long as they are relatively cautious, circumspect, and don't repeat what they see to others, they are tolerated.
    - LinuxBender 7y ago
      Some Chinese companies are allowed to bypass the great firewall, but only if they demonstrate that they comply with the governments monitoring and filtering requirements themselves. I know of a couple companies that are in this category. They don't need VPN's. They have circuits to all continents, but they are also just as vigilant as their government. They are also required to provide all encryption keys. I am not naming names.
  - dTal 7y ago
    >some educated Chinese citizens are resisting at great personal cost now, knowing that many share their sentiments It seems we agree. >assuming that most people will find a way to look beyond the propaganda seems overly optimistic to me. Most people? Yes, that would be overly optimistic. But enough people to render "overwhelming support" inaccurate? Not overly optimistic at all.
- Roark66 7y ago
  I think many Chinese citizens are taught from a very young age a carefully crafted ideology that tells them that their country used to be oppressed by the west, that the west despises them and looks down at them because they are Chinese. At the same time they are taught Chinese people couldn't handle the kind of "freedom" that exists in the west because politically the country would fracture and chaos would ensue, also if weapons were available as they are in many western countries people would be killed on the streets etc. If personal freedoms were respected criminals and terrorists that hide behind them couldn't be dealt with effectively and the only thing that stands between the people of China and anarchy is the communist party. This ideology is a mix of national pride with intentionally planted feelings of being inferior and resentment towards the west for their historic "crimes". This results in a mindset that acknowledges democracy and freedom is better in the west, but it could never work in China and West's attempts to bring it to China are actually cynical attempts to destroy everything China's achieved in recent decades wealth and military power-wise. When the majority of the people think as described above the only thing that can bring change is an economic downturn, but would that change be for the better or would it be in the direction the North Korea is taking?
  - cestith 7y ago
    To be fair, the Chinese have in fact been treated horribly many times in many places by many other countries including at least the US and Japan.
    - hasntotherp 7y ago
      But hasn’t other people been treated worst? The country of India, the entire continent of Africa, and how about all the Native Americans? Do we need to hold grudges from our grandparents parents? According to that logic, the world forever would be in a mode of revenge seeking. I always find this argument preposterous as someone ethnically Chinese hearing it from a nationalistic Chinese, 10 years younger, from China full of fervour. What exactly have they experience in life that is so full of hardship? To me, it seems like a convenient excuse to brush away any criticism of their actions. No one can criticise them because of what X and Y did to them 150 years ago. Seems like a cop out to me. I suspect the Chinese government has something to do with this mentality.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway_law 7y ago
>As crazy as it may seem to us, they're overwhelmingly supportive of their government. And North Korean's overwhelmingly praise the "Supreme Leader" with tears in their eyes. Ever see old video of Hitler addressing the masses? The people seem overwhelmingly supportive.
rwj 7y ago
And how was that measured? One of the lessons from the falls of authoritarian governments was how big a gap there was between public expressions of support and peoples' true feelings.
- Steltek 7y ago
  That's a really good question. You can't realistically go door to door asking people if they support their oppressive government. How do marketing folks get a pulse with public expression of opinion or survey results? Click rates and referrers on controversial stories?
hevi_jos 7y ago
Not that hard to understand, given that the current government has increased their quality of life immensely. China comes from having the majority of its population starve, thanks to Mao. And before that there were 5 centuries of China going down that ended in things like USA ships patrolling its rivers, and Europeans their coast being in practice a colony and experiencing humiliation of watching external powers siphon out your wealth being too weak to protect yourself. When the tendency is good everything if fine. When the tendency goes down, things will change.
dlivingston 7y ago
I remember reading somewhere (The Atlantic, maybe?) that, while Western people highly value individualism, Chinese people value the collective. That may explain the ostensibly huge support for the PRC.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  The West used to value the collective, or community and society as we were more inclined to call it. The neoliberal experiment that started with Reagan and Thatcher put paid to that, and it's become all about the individual. Even when it is clearly to the detriment of individuals.
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    The neoliberal experiment that started with Reagan and Thatcher become all about specific individuals, those who already had big $$$

dTal 7y ago

Is Winnie the Pooh not Western media? Of course Western media is part of Chinese counter-culture. We live in a global society. The interesting question is how large a part - and which media?

senorjazz 7y ago

> Is this hubris uniquely American? Probably not, but evidence does point towards a general attitude of "surely everyone wants to be like us, we are the best country in the world afterall"

corodra 7y ago
>"surely everyone wants to be like us, we are the best country in the world afterall" To be fair, that's generated from many immigrants who come to the USA with the feeling that "this is the land of opportunities and freedom". Granted, when you come from somewhere like soviet occupied Poland, it doesn't really take much to find a land of opportunity and freedom. But other immigrants from other countries say the same. If you're an American and a majority of your experience with foreigners are the people that come in saying that, and one of their proudest days is becoming an American citizen, you generally get an idea that America is a pretty good country. As a first gen, I don't see American's having pride in their country as fully unwarranted. It's not like other countries are without their fuck ups.

rpmisms 7y ago

There's also the fact that western media is extremely popular in oppressed countries. For example: Osama Bin Laden loved Disney cartoons, and Kim Jong Un has a macOS lookalike linux distro on his computer.

qnsi 7y ago
I wonder if Kim Jong Un browses HN

guelo 7y ago

American pop culture entertainment is by far the most dominant worldwide.

Roark66 7y ago

Well, In the previous century when Eastern Europe was under Soviet occupation American and western media were a part of counter-culture. This was limited to records and books and near the end of that time also included VHS tapes. It is not that far fetched to imagine that what used to happen in communist countries 60 years ago could have its equivalent in today's China.

psychoslave 7y ago

Isn't it basically soft power that you are refering to? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power