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Good, good....the more the merrier. Maybe finally the world will stop cuddling with China like they did in past 3 decades and start treating them for what they

Good, good....the more the merrier. Maybe finally the world will stop cuddling with China like they did in past 3 decades and start treating them for what they really are. A tight grip censorship dictatorship that has thrown dust in the world's eyes posing as softies while behind the scenes they amassed a lot of wealth riding West blindness.

VvR-Ox 7y ago
At least they are not the same warmongerers as the USA. Their tactics to use the legit ways of business to gain more power is really smart compared to many western countries who just invade others with brute force, military and bombs. China is a f*ed up country concerning human rights etc. but in the end we could really use a mix of the best ideas from both worlds. I'm afraid the world will go on like it does because globalization forces us to work together. Either one will gain absolute power or we'll have this situation going on like forever probably. P.S.: We have our own share of censorship etc. but we have the tendency to ignore that and point our fingers at countries like China for being "much worse".
- rm_-rf_slash 7y ago
  >At least they are not the same warmongerers as the USA Yes, it is so much better that they conduct their business of organ harvesting domestic prisoners and putting Muslims into concentration camps in their own (conquered) territories instead of doing it in places that fly different flags. Think of how horrible that would be if that were the case! Edit: 你好，无毛党！
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    That's a lame argument. US could be considered more evil than China (I agree with you), but both are evil when looking at specific aspects of their behavior. Argumenting that they (brutally) repress their own citizens does somehow absolve US from war crimes done on foreign soil is simply not valid.
    - rm_-rf_slash 7y ago
      I think this is where MLK’s “injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere” comes into play. There is no better or worse. There is only right and wrong. And there is plenty of wrong in plenty of places. Lots of right too, but right in any quantity does not negate the wrong. Or to put it another way, I think that representative democracy is the least worst form of government, and plenty of Chinese may think that the CCP’s autocracy is better. The fact that both forms of government have been responsible for human rights abuses (to use a rhetorical big tent the size of Greenland) neither is justified by their system of government nor does it render either system as fundamentally wrong. A lot of Chinese who would have otherwise etched out a life of hopeless extreme poverty have all the reason in the world to side with the CCP.
    - yters 7y ago
      I don't believe he is absolving the US. He is pointing out there is a false claim of moral superiority for the Chinese. For example, could you have the equivalent debate in China?
  - matvore 7y ago
    s/无/五/ You spelled it in pinyin right, but your IME chose the wrong character. That may be deliberate censorship by the conversion dictionary compilers.
  - ozzyman700 7y ago
    none of that is true, and I hope you can find a source for any of those things. Organ harvesting of uyghur prisoners is completely unfounded and is a lie spread on the internet.
    - sabujp 7y ago
      yeah and none of them are political prisoners either
    - rubinelli 7y ago
      Apparently the news that a million Muslims are kept in concentration camps [1] and that Falun Gong members and other political prisoners had their organs harvested for transplant [2] were being conflated. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/million-muslims-are-held-detention-camps-china-now-portrays-humane-n922041?icid=related https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/million-muslims-are-held-... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests...
      - ozzyman700 7y ago
        ETAC is wildly biased and has lied in the past about organ harvesting with other prisoners in china. I have no reason to believe it is true this time. I do believe the US is working hard to manufacture consent that China must be destroyed as it is a threat to the continued US hegemony.
- resters 7y ago
  Exactly right. China is overall far less destructive to the world and to human rights than the US is. Keep in mind that Trump has started this anti-China drumbeat as a way of asserting the moral superiority of his administration.
  - throw51319 7y ago
    China pollutes more than the US. Also anybody can see that they are gearing up for a conflict to obtain hegemony. They are the ones posturing for inevitable conflict... just so they can gain more power over the world. Look at countries that fell into the US sphere of influence... Europe, South Korea. Things aren't to bad in those places huh?
    - easymodex 7y ago
      >Look at countries that fell into the US sphere of influence... Europe, South Korea. Things aren't to bad in those places huh? Here in Europe we are very thankful, if it wasn't for America we would still be a third world country living in tents. Thanks for democracy, freedom, art, philosophy, medicine and so on. I only wish Europe had any of the smart minds that you have, maybe we could come up with them. Oh wait...
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        I'm pretty sure that without the US, the 20th century would have seen Europe united under either Nazi Germany or the USSR...
        resters 7y ago
        True, and as upsetting as it is for Americans to hear this, chances are Europe would be at least as pluralistic and free as it is today had either of those happened.
        DuskStar 7y ago
        In the counterfactual where the Soviets conquered Europe, I could easily see the USSR surviving to today... No liberal democracies on their borders to compare with, no need for a huge military on the western border, and increased resources would go a long way.
- jmull 7y ago
  It's a very poor argument to dismiss or dilute criticism of China because the US also warrants criticism.
captncrunchcode 7y ago
Let's be honest, we all know why they're banning South Park. It's because they showed Winnie the Pooh... P.S. While this trending topic isn't directly related to technology, great to see the masses in tech taking a stance against censorship.
- yters 7y ago
  The scene where Pooh is garrotted?
  - jeroenhd 7y ago
    Of course! Pooh looks just like the Chinese president for life, after all.
- age_of_stone 7y ago
  I was surprised to hear that that Winnie the Pooh was banned in China for some ridiculous reason. Then I did my verification. And turns out it is not the truth. baidu is dominant search engine in China. you can see that the search results do show Winnie-the-Pooh both in Chinese and in English. http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ps=1&ct=201326592&lm=-1&cl=2&nc=1&ie=utf-8&word=%E7%BB%B4%E5%B0%BC%E5%B0%8F%E7%86%8A http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ps=1&ct=20... http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ps=1&ct=201326592&lm=-1&cl=2&nc=1&ie=utf-8&word=Winnie+the+pooh http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ps=1&ct=20... I don't understand why some people say it's banned and others seem truly believe. simply a joke? you have your judgement.
thrower123 7y ago
China right now is national socialism like Hitler could only dream of implementing. It is eerie how directly parallel developments are, and how little this is remarked.
- kentrado 7y ago
  It is more state capitalism. Socialism implies more democracy.
  - thrower123 7y ago
    National Socialism was state capitalism. The CCP's control of their corporations and conglomerates is almost like they took Speer's notebooks and followed them to the letter. It's possible that Krupp and IG Farben and Messerschmitt were able to wag the dog a little more than their Chinese equivalents, but the resemblances are striking.
    - atomi 7y ago
      You could make the argument that the bigger problem, still, is China's lack of political diversity. One party has supreme control.
    - kentrado 7y ago
      If the workers can't control the means of production, it is not socialism. Socialism calls for the democracy of the workplace. What China has done is replace the authoritarian bourgeois with an authoritarian government. Just because North Korea's name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea doesn't mean it is democratic. Naming stuff their opposite doesn't make it so, but I'll admit it has been pretty effective for convincing people who don't know the true definition.
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        I'm confused - are you trying to say that the Nazis weren't socialist and so can't be compared to China, or that China isn't socialist and so can't be compared to the Nazis? Or just that we shouldn't use the word "socialism" in conjunction with either, despite that being the name of one of the groups in question?
not_a_cop75 7y ago
That was the whole point of the episode. Has China never heard of Barbara Streisand?
- umvi 7y ago
  Streisand effect doesn't work in absolute dictatorships as it requires freedom of speech.
- redwall_hp 7y ago
  Or mecha Barbara Streissand...
iliketosleep 7y ago
> A tight grip censorship dictatorship that has thrown dust in the world's eyes posing as softies while behind the scenes they amassed a lot of wealth riding West blindness. The West was fooled by China playing softies? No, you're being far too kind. It's more like the West willfully turning a blind eye and selling out due to greed. This is what you get when capitalism is pushed to the extreme - "values" diminish until you're left with only "value in dollars". China understood this, and western governments/corporations played ball.
- jdjdjjsjs 7y ago
  Except the reality is the "west" has gotten much richer as well. Trade with China has been a huge win win. Quality of life in the "West" is significantly greater thanks to trade with China. The problem is that the "West" took the vast majority of the benefits it gained from that trade and concentrated it in the hands of a few hundred people. The destruction of labour unions and the taxation regime has crushed the lower classes, not trade with China. Also, for all the issues with China, it's still a significantly better country than it was before Nixon visited China. Finally, the "West" hasn't been fooled by China for at least a decade. In fact, the US spearheaded a massive effort to resolve the China problem through the TPP which would have been an extremely effective way of getting China to open up (by providing companies who are currently dependent on China alternatives amongst China's neighbors but this time with an agreed upon IP protection regime which would have prevented Vietnam, say, from becoming China 2.0. If anything, the current haphazard tariff regime has been far more beneficial to the Chinese Leader for Life by creating an us vs them narrative which has pretty much eliminated the chances of any domestic pressure.
  - bsanr2 7y ago
    The problem with the TPP was that it stomped on consumer rights in a very China-like way. It was also very NAFTA-y in that it supported business and US natsec interests thoroughly while completely avoiding accountability to the average American (and to many of the citizens of other countries that it ostensibly would have helped). The challenge with China has been and will remain avoiding moral hazards when navigating our relationship to them. Temptation comes from all sides in this regard.
redleggedfrog 7y ago
God help us when South Park is helping us find our moral compass...
- Gabriel_Martin 7y ago
  You know, I think I learned something today...
- faitswulff 7y ago
  Hasn't satire always served as a biting reminder of where our truths should be?
- wpasc 7y ago
  I don't know that I agree with your sentiment. Irreverent comedians who have achieved significant success and not really accountable to anyone are perfectly positioned to "tell it like it is" and may be the best individuals to do so. I'm glad our society embraces and can cultivate such individuals especially in this time of cancel culture.
  - davvolun 7y ago
    You had me until "cancel culture" Exactly how many irreverent comedians who achieved significant success and are not really accountable to anyone, telling it like it is, have been cancelled by the cancel culture? Cosby, TJ Miller, Louis CK, Jeffrey Tambor, James Franco, ...? A good list of people who did morally reprehensible things of varying degrees, from illegal to merely opening their employers to civil liability, and in my mind, they should be "cancelled." Maybe you can argue some of these, I don't think so. Azis Ansari? I don't know how tranchant his "speaking truth to power" has ever been, but he did a Netflix special this year, and I would need pretty compelling evidence to believe that's your smoking gun. I predict he'll be just fine in a few more years. Kevin Hart? Maybe. Again, not much of a politically-motivated comedian, but getting removed as Oscar (?) host was damaging. Nonetheless, it looks like he had 5 movies/specials in 2019 and has work scheduled for 2020. Besides the car crash, I think he'll be alright. Dan Harmon (like James Gunn) was a political hit job and didn't go anywhere. Am I missing anyone? Outside of e.g. #metoo, some people didn't like Dave Chappelle's recent Netflix special. I'm not a fan of him "punching down" at trans people myself, but, I don't think it's anything he hasn't said before. Nonetheless it was trending in the top five for most of last month, I think he is, and will continue to be, doing fine. I just don't see where people attribute all this power to "cancel culture." Chik-fil-A, Nike, ..., all doing just fine despite on-going boycotts from "cancel culture."
leesec 7y ago
Agreed. Maybe one day the world will stop cuddling U.S.A too for all of our war crimes and atrocities.
yahwrong 7y ago
At least they're not backwards with regards to climate change ... Realistically climate change is a more pressing issue than censorship.
- peterlk 7y ago
  I struggle to believe that this is a core concern, and not a response to other pressures. For example, being reliant on other countries for energy.

VvR-Ox 7y ago

At least they are not the same warmongerers as the USA. Their tactics to use the legit ways of business to gain more power is really smart compared to many western countries who just invade others with brute force, military and bombs. China is a f*ed up country concerning human rights etc. but in the end we could really use a mix of the best ideas from both worlds. I'm afraid the world will go on like it does because globalization forces us to work together. Either one will gain absolute power or we'll have this situation going on like forever probably. P.S.: We have our own share of censorship etc. but we have the tendency to ignore that and point our fingers at countries like China for being "much worse".

rm_-rf_slash 7y ago
>At least they are not the same warmongerers as the USA Yes, it is so much better that they conduct their business of organ harvesting domestic prisoners and putting Muslims into concentration camps in their own (conquered) territories instead of doing it in places that fly different flags. Think of how horrible that would be if that were the case! Edit: 你好，无毛党！
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  That's a lame argument. US could be considered more evil than China (I agree with you), but both are evil when looking at specific aspects of their behavior. Argumenting that they (brutally) repress their own citizens does somehow absolve US from war crimes done on foreign soil is simply not valid.
  - rm_-rf_slash 7y ago
    I think this is where MLK’s “injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere” comes into play. There is no better or worse. There is only right and wrong. And there is plenty of wrong in plenty of places. Lots of right too, but right in any quantity does not negate the wrong. Or to put it another way, I think that representative democracy is the least worst form of government, and plenty of Chinese may think that the CCP’s autocracy is better. The fact that both forms of government have been responsible for human rights abuses (to use a rhetorical big tent the size of Greenland) neither is justified by their system of government nor does it render either system as fundamentally wrong. A lot of Chinese who would have otherwise etched out a life of hopeless extreme poverty have all the reason in the world to side with the CCP.
  - yters 7y ago
    I don't believe he is absolving the US. He is pointing out there is a false claim of moral superiority for the Chinese. For example, could you have the equivalent debate in China?
- matvore 7y ago
  s/无/五/ You spelled it in pinyin right, but your IME chose the wrong character. That may be deliberate censorship by the conversion dictionary compilers.
- ozzyman700 7y ago
  none of that is true, and I hope you can find a source for any of those things. Organ harvesting of uyghur prisoners is completely unfounded and is a lie spread on the internet.
  - sabujp 7y ago
    yeah and none of them are political prisoners either
  - rubinelli 7y ago
    Apparently the news that a million Muslims are kept in concentration camps [1] and that Falun Gong members and other political prisoners had their organs harvested for transplant [2] were being conflated. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/million-muslims-are-held-detention-camps-china-now-portrays-humane-n922041?icid=related https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/million-muslims-are-held-... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests...
    - ozzyman700 7y ago
      ETAC is wildly biased and has lied in the past about organ harvesting with other prisoners in china. I have no reason to believe it is true this time. I do believe the US is working hard to manufacture consent that China must be destroyed as it is a threat to the continued US hegemony.
resters 7y ago
Exactly right. China is overall far less destructive to the world and to human rights than the US is. Keep in mind that Trump has started this anti-China drumbeat as a way of asserting the moral superiority of his administration.
- throw51319 7y ago
  China pollutes more than the US. Also anybody can see that they are gearing up for a conflict to obtain hegemony. They are the ones posturing for inevitable conflict... just so they can gain more power over the world. Look at countries that fell into the US sphere of influence... Europe, South Korea. Things aren't to bad in those places huh?
  - easymodex 7y ago
    >Look at countries that fell into the US sphere of influence... Europe, South Korea. Things aren't to bad in those places huh? Here in Europe we are very thankful, if it wasn't for America we would still be a third world country living in tents. Thanks for democracy, freedom, art, philosophy, medicine and so on. I only wish Europe had any of the smart minds that you have, maybe we could come up with them. Oh wait...
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      I'm pretty sure that without the US, the 20th century would have seen Europe united under either Nazi Germany or the USSR...
      - resters 7y ago
        True, and as upsetting as it is for Americans to hear this, chances are Europe would be at least as pluralistic and free as it is today had either of those happened.
        DuskStar 7y ago
        In the counterfactual where the Soviets conquered Europe, I could easily see the USSR surviving to today... No liberal democracies on their borders to compare with, no need for a huge military on the western border, and increased resources would go a long way.
jmull 7y ago
It's a very poor argument to dismiss or dilute criticism of China because the US also warrants criticism.

captncrunchcode 7y ago

Let's be honest, we all know why they're banning South Park. It's because they showed Winnie the Pooh... P.S. While this trending topic isn't directly related to technology, great to see the masses in tech taking a stance against censorship.

yters 7y ago
The scene where Pooh is garrotted?
- jeroenhd 7y ago
  Of course! Pooh looks just like the Chinese president for life, after all.
age_of_stone 7y ago
I was surprised to hear that that Winnie the Pooh was banned in China for some ridiculous reason. Then I did my verification. And turns out it is not the truth. baidu is dominant search engine in China. you can see that the search results do show Winnie-the-Pooh both in Chinese and in English. http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ps=1&ct=201326592&lm=-1&cl=2&nc=1&ie=utf-8&word=%E7%BB%B4%E5%B0%BC%E5%B0%8F%E7%86%8A http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ps=1&ct=20... http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ps=1&ct=201326592&lm=-1&cl=2&nc=1&ie=utf-8&word=Winnie+the+pooh http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ps=1&ct=20... I don't understand why some people say it's banned and others seem truly believe. simply a joke? you have your judgement.

thrower123 7y ago

China right now is national socialism like Hitler could only dream of implementing. It is eerie how directly parallel developments are, and how little this is remarked.

kentrado 7y ago
It is more state capitalism. Socialism implies more democracy.
- thrower123 7y ago
  National Socialism was state capitalism. The CCP's control of their corporations and conglomerates is almost like they took Speer's notebooks and followed them to the letter. It's possible that Krupp and IG Farben and Messerschmitt were able to wag the dog a little more than their Chinese equivalents, but the resemblances are striking.
  - atomi 7y ago
    You could make the argument that the bigger problem, still, is China's lack of political diversity. One party has supreme control.
  - kentrado 7y ago
    If the workers can't control the means of production, it is not socialism. Socialism calls for the democracy of the workplace. What China has done is replace the authoritarian bourgeois with an authoritarian government. Just because North Korea's name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea doesn't mean it is democratic. Naming stuff their opposite doesn't make it so, but I'll admit it has been pretty effective for convincing people who don't know the true definition.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      I'm confused - are you trying to say that the Nazis weren't socialist and so can't be compared to China, or that China isn't socialist and so can't be compared to the Nazis? Or just that we shouldn't use the word "socialism" in conjunction with either, despite that being the name of one of the groups in question?

not_a_cop75 7y ago

That was the whole point of the episode. Has China never heard of Barbara Streisand?

umvi 7y ago
Streisand effect doesn't work in absolute dictatorships as it requires freedom of speech.
redwall_hp 7y ago
Or mecha Barbara Streissand...

iliketosleep 7y ago

> A tight grip censorship dictatorship that has thrown dust in the world's eyes posing as softies while behind the scenes they amassed a lot of wealth riding West blindness. The West was fooled by China playing softies? No, you're being far too kind. It's more like the West willfully turning a blind eye and selling out due to greed. This is what you get when capitalism is pushed to the extreme - "values" diminish until you're left with only "value in dollars". China understood this, and western governments/corporations played ball.

jdjdjjsjs 7y ago
Except the reality is the "west" has gotten much richer as well. Trade with China has been a huge win win. Quality of life in the "West" is significantly greater thanks to trade with China. The problem is that the "West" took the vast majority of the benefits it gained from that trade and concentrated it in the hands of a few hundred people. The destruction of labour unions and the taxation regime has crushed the lower classes, not trade with China. Also, for all the issues with China, it's still a significantly better country than it was before Nixon visited China. Finally, the "West" hasn't been fooled by China for at least a decade. In fact, the US spearheaded a massive effort to resolve the China problem through the TPP which would have been an extremely effective way of getting China to open up (by providing companies who are currently dependent on China alternatives amongst China's neighbors but this time with an agreed upon IP protection regime which would have prevented Vietnam, say, from becoming China 2.0. If anything, the current haphazard tariff regime has been far more beneficial to the Chinese Leader for Life by creating an us vs them narrative which has pretty much eliminated the chances of any domestic pressure.
- bsanr2 7y ago
  The problem with the TPP was that it stomped on consumer rights in a very China-like way. It was also very NAFTA-y in that it supported business and US natsec interests thoroughly while completely avoiding accountability to the average American (and to many of the citizens of other countries that it ostensibly would have helped). The challenge with China has been and will remain avoiding moral hazards when navigating our relationship to them. Temptation comes from all sides in this regard.

redleggedfrog 7y ago

God help us when South Park is helping us find our moral compass...

Gabriel_Martin 7y ago
You know, I think I learned something today...
faitswulff 7y ago
Hasn't satire always served as a biting reminder of where our truths should be?
wpasc 7y ago
I don't know that I agree with your sentiment. Irreverent comedians who have achieved significant success and not really accountable to anyone are perfectly positioned to "tell it like it is" and may be the best individuals to do so. I'm glad our society embraces and can cultivate such individuals especially in this time of cancel culture.
- davvolun 7y ago
  You had me until "cancel culture" Exactly how many irreverent comedians who achieved significant success and are not really accountable to anyone, telling it like it is, have been cancelled by the cancel culture? Cosby, TJ Miller, Louis CK, Jeffrey Tambor, James Franco, ...? A good list of people who did morally reprehensible things of varying degrees, from illegal to merely opening their employers to civil liability, and in my mind, they should be "cancelled." Maybe you can argue some of these, I don't think so. Azis Ansari? I don't know how tranchant his "speaking truth to power" has ever been, but he did a Netflix special this year, and I would need pretty compelling evidence to believe that's your smoking gun. I predict he'll be just fine in a few more years. Kevin Hart? Maybe. Again, not much of a politically-motivated comedian, but getting removed as Oscar (?) host was damaging. Nonetheless, it looks like he had 5 movies/specials in 2019 and has work scheduled for 2020. Besides the car crash, I think he'll be alright. Dan Harmon (like James Gunn) was a political hit job and didn't go anywhere. Am I missing anyone? Outside of e.g. #metoo, some people didn't like Dave Chappelle's recent Netflix special. I'm not a fan of him "punching down" at trans people myself, but, I don't think it's anything he hasn't said before. Nonetheless it was trending in the top five for most of last month, I think he is, and will continue to be, doing fine. I just don't see where people attribute all this power to "cancel culture." Chik-fil-A, Nike, ..., all doing just fine despite on-going boycotts from "cancel culture."

leesec 7y ago

Agreed. Maybe one day the world will stop cuddling U.S.A too for all of our war crimes and atrocities.

yahwrong 7y ago

At least they're not backwards with regards to climate change ... Realistically climate change is a more pressing issue than censorship.

peterlk 7y ago
I struggle to believe that this is a core concern, and not a response to other pressures. For example, being reliant on other countries for energy.