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The UN is a political organization and, importantly, highly leveraged by China for political gain. The objective reality is that Taiwan is an independent count

The UN is a political organization and, importantly, highly leveraged by China for political gain. The objective reality is that Taiwan is an independent country that sets its own laws and is free to conduct its own foreign relations.

thewholeview 7y ago
The objectivity in your eyes is subjectivity to another. Similarly objectivity in others is subjective in yours. There is never true objectivity in our collective presence. If UN ceases to be your objectivity, that's respected.
vkou 7y ago
The objective reality is that most of the world, including the United States, does not actually recognize Taiwan as a sovereign country. It recognizes that it exists as... Something. I think you would be hard-pressed to argue that the Department of State, and its counterparts in Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Brazil, Japan[1], etc, etc, etc, have been 'highly leveraged by China for political gain'. Oh, and to throw another monkey wrench in your argument, consider that both China and Taiwan believe that Taiwan is not an independent country, but that it is part of China. What they disagree on is who is the legitimate government of China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy
- AWildC182 7y ago
  Countries that don't recognize Taiwan, the US included, do so solely because the GDP of China is much greater than the GDP of Taiwan and China is more than willing to throw their weight around in an attempt to legitimize their claim through coercion. If you hold a gun to someone's head and/or give them $100 and tell them to repeat that you are a cabbage, you don't become the cabbage, no matter how much of the world you coerce. Both governments make claims against the other's land but that doesn't make them the same government.
  - vkou 7y ago
    I do all sorts of things, because people who have physical, or economic power over me compel me to. Just because their authority is enforced through force (Or the implicit threat of force) (Or the promise of rewards for compliance) does not mean that they are illegitimate authorities. Compelling other people to do things, with either a carrot, or a stick, is an incredibly normal state of affairs in life. My landlord will have me out on my ass if I don't cut him a check on the first of every month - does that mean that my recognition of his authority to my apartment is illegitimate, or somehow coercive?
    - AWildC182 7y ago
      coun·try /ˈkəntrē/ noun 1. a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory. Does the Peoples Republic of China currently occupy and govern the island of Taiwan?
      - vkou 7y ago
        1. I'm not sure how this has anything to do with your claim that PROC is improperly coercing the world into saying that black is white, by putting a gun to their heads. (And I still don't understand how it squares with the reality that the ROC is trying its best to do the same thing.) 2. Is Taiwan a distinct nation, or is it part of the Chinese Nation? Both the PROC and the ROC currently seem to think that it is the latter. Most of the world agrees with them. (Bonus points: Is Catalonia a country? What about Cascadia? What about Transnistria, and South Ossetia? What about Crimea? By your definition, it seems to quite clearly be part of Russia... Be careful where you express that viewpoint, though, it's not one shared by most of the world's governments, or most Ukranians...)
        Aeolun 7y ago
        In regards to 1. I’m a bit confused. Are you claiming China is landlord to the entire world? Or that if they were, coercing all the population to say white is black would be the normal state of affairs?
- karaokeyoga 7y ago
  You can think of it this way. If the PRC were to say, "oh, by-the-way, feel free to recognize Taiwan as an independent country", every other country in the world would likely do so.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  > Department of State, and its counterparts in Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Brazil and Japan Anyone in these departments of state is aware that Taiwan is a separate country. They’re just not able to say it.
- brobinson 7y ago
  The US has "acknowledged" the "One China" position of both sides of the Strait since the 1970s, but it has never supported the notion that Taiwan (and Kinmen, Taiping, etc.) is PRC territory or that the mainland is ROC territory. "China" is not a nationstate. There's only the ROC (1912) and PRC (1949).

thewholeview 7y ago

The objectivity in your eyes is subjectivity to another. Similarly objectivity in others is subjective in yours. There is never true objectivity in our collective presence. If UN ceases to be your objectivity, that's respected.

vkou 7y ago

The objective reality is that most of the world, including the United States, does not actually recognize Taiwan as a sovereign country. It recognizes that it exists as... Something. I think you would be hard-pressed to argue that the Department of State, and its counterparts in Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Brazil, Japan[1], etc, etc, etc, have been 'highly leveraged by China for political gain'. Oh, and to throw another monkey wrench in your argument, consider that both China and Taiwan believe that Taiwan is not an independent country, but that it is part of China. What they disagree on is who is the legitimate government of China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy

AWildC182 7y ago
Countries that don't recognize Taiwan, the US included, do so solely because the GDP of China is much greater than the GDP of Taiwan and China is more than willing to throw their weight around in an attempt to legitimize their claim through coercion. If you hold a gun to someone's head and/or give them $100 and tell them to repeat that you are a cabbage, you don't become the cabbage, no matter how much of the world you coerce. Both governments make claims against the other's land but that doesn't make them the same government.
- vkou 7y ago
  I do all sorts of things, because people who have physical, or economic power over me compel me to. Just because their authority is enforced through force (Or the implicit threat of force) (Or the promise of rewards for compliance) does not mean that they are illegitimate authorities. Compelling other people to do things, with either a carrot, or a stick, is an incredibly normal state of affairs in life. My landlord will have me out on my ass if I don't cut him a check on the first of every month - does that mean that my recognition of his authority to my apartment is illegitimate, or somehow coercive?
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    coun·try /ˈkəntrē/ noun 1. a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory. Does the Peoples Republic of China currently occupy and govern the island of Taiwan?
    - vkou 7y ago
      1. I'm not sure how this has anything to do with your claim that PROC is improperly coercing the world into saying that black is white, by putting a gun to their heads. (And I still don't understand how it squares with the reality that the ROC is trying its best to do the same thing.) 2. Is Taiwan a distinct nation, or is it part of the Chinese Nation? Both the PROC and the ROC currently seem to think that it is the latter. Most of the world agrees with them. (Bonus points: Is Catalonia a country? What about Cascadia? What about Transnistria, and South Ossetia? What about Crimea? By your definition, it seems to quite clearly be part of Russia... Be careful where you express that viewpoint, though, it's not one shared by most of the world's governments, or most Ukranians...)
      - Aeolun 7y ago
        In regards to 1. I’m a bit confused. Are you claiming China is landlord to the entire world? Or that if they were, coercing all the population to say white is black would be the normal state of affairs?
karaokeyoga 7y ago
You can think of it this way. If the PRC were to say, "oh, by-the-way, feel free to recognize Taiwan as an independent country", every other country in the world would likely do so.
Aeolun 7y ago
> Department of State, and its counterparts in Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Brazil and Japan Anyone in these departments of state is aware that Taiwan is a separate country. They’re just not able to say it.
brobinson 7y ago
The US has "acknowledged" the "One China" position of both sides of the Strait since the 1970s, but it has never supported the notion that Taiwan (and Kinmen, Taiping, etc.) is PRC territory or that the mainland is ROC territory. "China" is not a nationstate. There's only the ROC (1912) and PRC (1949).