7 ms·

China is showing the ability to control one of the world's largest, and most advanced companies. It isn't petty–it is scary. The U.S. and others have sold their

China is showing the ability to control one of the world's largest, and most advanced companies. It isn't petty–it is scary. The U.S. and others have sold their soul to the devil for $299 flat screen tvs.

blotter_paper 7y ago
As if the US hadn't sold their soul already? :/ I'm not trying to downplay the horrors of China, but let's not act like the US had clean hands before importing bulk electronics.
- gtirloni 7y ago
  Always this same comment when anyone points the finger at China.
  - jaynetics 7y ago
    The comment is just pointing out to the OP that any moral bankruptcy of the US can most certainly not be blamed on China.
  - blotter_paper 7y ago
    The comment I was replying to implicitly suggested the US had a "soul" prior to engaging in business with China, I wasn't the one who brought up the US. If I had brought up the US out of the blue I'd agree that it was an irrelevant whataboutism, but in this context I feel it was entirely appropriate and on topic.
- thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
  I'm not sure the average American benefited as directly to the atrocites of the past. The U.S. simply cannot change course without a serious alteration of the the ethos of the country.
  - diminoten 7y ago
    Oh we definitely have, everyone benefitted massively from the "manifest destiny" attitude behind the many atrocities committed against the native Americans. It's also not our fault, infar as we didn't literally pull any triggers. We're probably still complicit to some degree, however, by our general lack of support for reparation actions.
    - blotter_paper 7y ago
      We all pay taxes that buy triggers and pay to have them pulled. You can argue this is compelled, but I personally have more respect for those who refuse to pay taxes and face the wrath of the US government than I have for my own cowardly position of paying taxes and continuing to complain about the horrors committed using that money.
      - diminoten 7y ago
        The Good Place actually deals with this, "you can't be good and participate in society anymore because of globalization" idea pretty well IMO.
      - kuzimoto 7y ago
        If no one paid taxes, then the governments capacity to do bad things would certainly go down. However, then there also probably would be no government and everyone would be worse off. I'm sure lots of tax money is wasted, or used for bad things, but also a lot of good as well. Roads, police (that keep the peace), firefighters, education, foreign aid, etc.
        blotter_paper 7y ago
        Given all those other countries we've been bombing based on false pretenses I'd say a lack of US government funding would be a net positive. I'll take lawless anarchy over a relatively well organized state that bombs children to secure foreign oil production facilities and prop up the petro-dollar.
mistermann 7y ago
I would think it also has non-trivial psychological effects on the Chinese public in terms of feelings of national pride, optimism for the future, and allegiance to their communist government. From where I sit, China is executing largely flawlessly, for the maximization of their outcome that is, not the entire world's. But it's the West who made this possible, so I don't place much blame on China.
- gleenn 7y ago
  Pretty sure the escalating violence in Hong Kong would be a sign that things aren't going flawlessly.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Flawless execution does not necessarily mean everything goes perfect. Expecting everyone to go down without a fight (or even realizing they're in one in the first place) like the West seems like fairly wishful thinking. I reckon Hong Kong is a speed bump. China could likely roll tanks in and slaughter thousands and the West would do little more than hold some important looking meetings and press conferences with Very Serious looks on their faces, before issuing some "demands" on China's behavior, that would be promptly forgotten. Western culture has become weak, we are ruled by false ideology, propaganda, and the almighty dollar. If you ask me, we deserve whatever it is we get.
api 7y ago
Pushing back on China trade is the one and probably only thing I agree with Trump on, and I've wondered if getting rid of Clinton and the TPP wasn't actually worth tolerating Trump being an ass for four years. All I know is that I'm glad the TPP is dead and I'll be happy if nobody with the last names Clinton or Bush ever sits in the White House again. I say this as someone who leans more toward the 'woke' side of the present culture wars.
- learc83 7y ago
  The TPP was designed to contain China. China wasn't a part of it.
  - api 7y ago
    If that's true then I'm wrong, but I'll need a reference on that. My understanding has been that the TPP was about opening China to further outsourcing of white collar work by regularizing IP law on paper (which the Chinese would just ignore of course). This would have allowed more paralegal, contract writing, engineering, and even things like radiology (X-ray and scan interpretation) to be outsourced, further gutting the US middle class and transferring more expertise to China. In other words it would have started the outsourcing of non-physical forms of service work and more lower-level intellectual labor. What would even be left of the US middle class after that?
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      China wasn't a signatory. You're right that it was corporate captured but the original goal was geopolitical. Edit, cite: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - learc83 7y ago
      https://cjil.uchicago.edu/publication/how-united-states-uses-trans-pacific-partnership-contain-china-international-trade https://cjil.uchicago.edu/publication/how-united-states-uses...
jaynetics 7y ago
> The U.S. and others have sold their soul to the devil for $299 flat screen tvs. This seems to suggest the populace is at fault, wanting and buying cheap gadgets no matter what the consequences are? In truth, I think most people are simply unaware of the many problems caused both by consumerism, and the moral spinelessness of pretty much all large corporations and how that is brought about by market forces. Even in politics I'd say that there is, besides some malfeasance, also limited understanding of complicated issues. (Remember the congressman asking Zuckerberg how Facebook made any money?)
- thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
  > This seems to suggest the populace is at fault, wanting and buying cheap gadgets no matter what the consequences are? I'm sorry it came off that way, as I do not blame people for the propaganda of their government (U.S. or China). I do absolutely believe that we shouldn't be able to off-shore environmental/worker's rights policies. If you want to sell something in California, it should be made with the same environmental standards that making it in California would require.
  - guelo 7y ago
    Environmental and human rights standards.
- eternalban 7y ago
  > This seems to suggest the populace is at fault, wanting and buying cheap gadgets no matter what the consequences are? I didn't read GP's "others" as "populace". One reading would have the U.S. and other [governments] have given in to excessive demands of China. Now the "devil" in the question doesn't necessarily have to be China. It could be Global Finance -- an abstraction which believe it or not is reasonably reducible to actual people and families, the fabled "1%" [sic].
- wccrawford 7y ago
  I'd push the blame a little further on. Many, many people are just struggling to get by, and they pay as little as they possible can for their luxury goods. If they weren't struggling to get by on the wages they make, they could afford to be a little more picky about what they buy and how it's created.
dirtyid 7y ago
Multinational companies conforming to local laws and customs isn't scary, it's status quo. (Most) Companies sell products and services not ideology. Sometimes prexisting ideology comes preloaded in because regionalization and cultural competence cost extra. Mostly that's an economic bug that people have conflated as a soft power feature because non-western markets were too small to advocate for themselves. It's completely reasonable for larger countries with different values to expect customization that comport to local markets. At the end of the day China isn't forcing Apple or any other companies to make changes in global markets.
- ccpsddshill 7y ago
  > Multinational companies conforming to local laws and customs isn't scary This is neither local law or customs
- thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
  > Multinational companies conforming to local laws and customs isn't scary, it's status quo. You are missing my point. The fact that it is status quo is the scary part. I do not accept that companies should be let off the hook for empowering and enriching oppressive reigns because of "local laws and customs". I do accept that companies should be let off the hook for destroying environments and ecosystems because of local laws and customs. What should a country have to do for a person / corporation(group of people) to stop supporting it? I don't expect everyone to have the same answer, or even that my answer is better than another, but if you are in a privileged life-situation you should think of your personal line and decide if it has been crossed.
  - ditry1232 7y ago
    It's also neither local laws or customs to hide the Taiwanese flag as OP claims.
    - dirtyid 7y ago
      Wut. China compelling foreign companies to remove references of Taiwan in China is established policy? Even mainland Chinese companies HK/Taiwan offices occasionally get in trouble for missteps.
est31 7y ago
Currently, most of China's power comes from its economy. There is barely any military presence outside of the mainland, and only a few years ago they opened their first outpost. So it's not surprising that Apple is conforming to their requests. And they are not the only ones. A while back, German carmaker Daimler made an instagram post with a Dalai Lama quote [1]. They ended up apologizing for "hurting the feelings of the chinese people". China is extremely attractive to businesses because of its gigantic market. There are tons of cars to be sold in a country with over one billion people. Tons of phones. There are tons of chinese hotel guests, chinese search requests, etc. [1]: https://media-cdn.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.3856412 https://media-cdn.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.3856412
- Ambele 7y ago
  China also sometimes tries to hold businesses hostage that try to leave. https://www.roboticsbusinessreview.com/manufacturing/china-departure-considerations-reshoring/ https://www.roboticsbusinessreview.com/manufacturing/china-d...
- friendlybus 7y ago
  China has military control over the south China sea and a lot of the oil imports to SEA countries. Assuming the US pulls out, Japan, south Korea, Australia will all face strategic challenge from China over the next few decades. The US refuses to see China as a strategic threat, and only as a economic challenge. Australia is looking into getting 16-32 submarines ordered right now, to cover for future defense outcomes. Aus and the SEA middle powers are having talks about obtaining nukes simply to prevent them being used against the countries. China is projected to grow to be double the size of the US's econony. China is willing to spend those benefits in the south China sea and on BRI. Make no mistake about the military of China. It is a concern. This is as big as power politics get.
  - est31 7y ago
    That's why I said currently. I completely agree with you that the chinese military will increase in power and relevance.
  - 7y ago

blotter_paper 7y ago

As if the US hadn't sold their soul already? :/ I'm not trying to downplay the horrors of China, but let's not act like the US had clean hands before importing bulk electronics.

gtirloni 7y ago
Always this same comment when anyone points the finger at China.
- jaynetics 7y ago
  The comment is just pointing out to the OP that any moral bankruptcy of the US can most certainly not be blamed on China.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  The comment I was replying to implicitly suggested the US had a "soul" prior to engaging in business with China, I wasn't the one who brought up the US. If I had brought up the US out of the blue I'd agree that it was an irrelevant whataboutism, but in this context I feel it was entirely appropriate and on topic.
thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
I'm not sure the average American benefited as directly to the atrocites of the past. The U.S. simply cannot change course without a serious alteration of the the ethos of the country.
- diminoten 7y ago
  Oh we definitely have, everyone benefitted massively from the "manifest destiny" attitude behind the many atrocities committed against the native Americans. It's also not our fault, infar as we didn't literally pull any triggers. We're probably still complicit to some degree, however, by our general lack of support for reparation actions.
  - blotter_paper 7y ago
    We all pay taxes that buy triggers and pay to have them pulled. You can argue this is compelled, but I personally have more respect for those who refuse to pay taxes and face the wrath of the US government than I have for my own cowardly position of paying taxes and continuing to complain about the horrors committed using that money.
    - diminoten 7y ago
      The Good Place actually deals with this, "you can't be good and participate in society anymore because of globalization" idea pretty well IMO.
    - kuzimoto 7y ago
      If no one paid taxes, then the governments capacity to do bad things would certainly go down. However, then there also probably would be no government and everyone would be worse off. I'm sure lots of tax money is wasted, or used for bad things, but also a lot of good as well. Roads, police (that keep the peace), firefighters, education, foreign aid, etc.
      - blotter_paper 7y ago
        Given all those other countries we've been bombing based on false pretenses I'd say a lack of US government funding would be a net positive. I'll take lawless anarchy over a relatively well organized state that bombs children to secure foreign oil production facilities and prop up the petro-dollar.

mistermann 7y ago

I would think it also has non-trivial psychological effects on the Chinese public in terms of feelings of national pride, optimism for the future, and allegiance to their communist government. From where I sit, China is executing largely flawlessly, for the maximization of their outcome that is, not the entire world's. But it's the West who made this possible, so I don't place much blame on China.

gleenn 7y ago
Pretty sure the escalating violence in Hong Kong would be a sign that things aren't going flawlessly.
- mistermann 7y ago
  Flawless execution does not necessarily mean everything goes perfect. Expecting everyone to go down without a fight (or even realizing they're in one in the first place) like the West seems like fairly wishful thinking. I reckon Hong Kong is a speed bump. China could likely roll tanks in and slaughter thousands and the West would do little more than hold some important looking meetings and press conferences with Very Serious looks on their faces, before issuing some "demands" on China's behavior, that would be promptly forgotten. Western culture has become weak, we are ruled by false ideology, propaganda, and the almighty dollar. If you ask me, we deserve whatever it is we get.

api 7y ago

Pushing back on China trade is the one and probably only thing I agree with Trump on, and I've wondered if getting rid of Clinton and the TPP wasn't actually worth tolerating Trump being an ass for four years. All I know is that I'm glad the TPP is dead and I'll be happy if nobody with the last names Clinton or Bush ever sits in the White House again. I say this as someone who leans more toward the 'woke' side of the present culture wars.

learc83 7y ago
The TPP was designed to contain China. China wasn't a part of it.
- api 7y ago
  If that's true then I'm wrong, but I'll need a reference on that. My understanding has been that the TPP was about opening China to further outsourcing of white collar work by regularizing IP law on paper (which the Chinese would just ignore of course). This would have allowed more paralegal, contract writing, engineering, and even things like radiology (X-ray and scan interpretation) to be outsourced, further gutting the US middle class and transferring more expertise to China. In other words it would have started the outsourcing of non-physical forms of service work and more lower-level intellectual labor. What would even be left of the US middle class after that?
  - yourbandsucks 7y ago
    China wasn't a signatory. You're right that it was corporate captured but the original goal was geopolitical. Edit, cite: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - learc83 7y ago
    https://cjil.uchicago.edu/publication/how-united-states-uses-trans-pacific-partnership-contain-china-international-trade https://cjil.uchicago.edu/publication/how-united-states-uses...

jaynetics 7y ago

> The U.S. and others have sold their soul to the devil for $299 flat screen tvs. This seems to suggest the populace is at fault, wanting and buying cheap gadgets no matter what the consequences are? In truth, I think most people are simply unaware of the many problems caused both by consumerism, and the moral spinelessness of pretty much all large corporations and how that is brought about by market forces. Even in politics I'd say that there is, besides some malfeasance, also limited understanding of complicated issues. (Remember the congressman asking Zuckerberg how Facebook made any money?)

thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
> This seems to suggest the populace is at fault, wanting and buying cheap gadgets no matter what the consequences are? I'm sorry it came off that way, as I do not blame people for the propaganda of their government (U.S. or China). I do absolutely believe that we shouldn't be able to off-shore environmental/worker's rights policies. If you want to sell something in California, it should be made with the same environmental standards that making it in California would require.
- guelo 7y ago
  Environmental and human rights standards.
eternalban 7y ago
> This seems to suggest the populace is at fault, wanting and buying cheap gadgets no matter what the consequences are? I didn't read GP's "others" as "populace". One reading would have the U.S. and other [governments] have given in to excessive demands of China. Now the "devil" in the question doesn't necessarily have to be China. It could be Global Finance -- an abstraction which believe it or not is reasonably reducible to actual people and families, the fabled "1%" [sic].
wccrawford 7y ago
I'd push the blame a little further on. Many, many people are just struggling to get by, and they pay as little as they possible can for their luxury goods. If they weren't struggling to get by on the wages they make, they could afford to be a little more picky about what they buy and how it's created.

dirtyid 7y ago

Multinational companies conforming to local laws and customs isn't scary, it's status quo. (Most) Companies sell products and services not ideology. Sometimes prexisting ideology comes preloaded in because regionalization and cultural competence cost extra. Mostly that's an economic bug that people have conflated as a soft power feature because non-western markets were too small to advocate for themselves. It's completely reasonable for larger countries with different values to expect customization that comport to local markets. At the end of the day China isn't forcing Apple or any other companies to make changes in global markets.

ccpsddshill 7y ago
> Multinational companies conforming to local laws and customs isn't scary This is neither local law or customs
thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
> Multinational companies conforming to local laws and customs isn't scary, it's status quo. You are missing my point. The fact that it is status quo is the scary part. I do not accept that companies should be let off the hook for empowering and enriching oppressive reigns because of "local laws and customs". I do accept that companies should be let off the hook for destroying environments and ecosystems because of local laws and customs. What should a country have to do for a person / corporation(group of people) to stop supporting it? I don't expect everyone to have the same answer, or even that my answer is better than another, but if you are in a privileged life-situation you should think of your personal line and decide if it has been crossed.
- ditry1232 7y ago
  It's also neither local laws or customs to hide the Taiwanese flag as OP claims.
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    Wut. China compelling foreign companies to remove references of Taiwan in China is established policy? Even mainland Chinese companies HK/Taiwan offices occasionally get in trouble for missteps.

est31 7y ago

Currently, most of China's power comes from its economy. There is barely any military presence outside of the mainland, and only a few years ago they opened their first outpost. So it's not surprising that Apple is conforming to their requests. And they are not the only ones. A while back, German carmaker Daimler made an instagram post with a Dalai Lama quote [1]. They ended up apologizing for "hurting the feelings of the chinese people". China is extremely attractive to businesses because of its gigantic market. There are tons of cars to be sold in a country with over one billion people. Tons of phones. There are tons of chinese hotel guests, chinese search requests, etc. [1]: https://media-cdn.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.3856412 https://media-cdn.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.3856412

Ambele 7y ago
China also sometimes tries to hold businesses hostage that try to leave. https://www.roboticsbusinessreview.com/manufacturing/china-departure-considerations-reshoring/ https://www.roboticsbusinessreview.com/manufacturing/china-d...
friendlybus 7y ago
China has military control over the south China sea and a lot of the oil imports to SEA countries. Assuming the US pulls out, Japan, south Korea, Australia will all face strategic challenge from China over the next few decades. The US refuses to see China as a strategic threat, and only as a economic challenge. Australia is looking into getting 16-32 submarines ordered right now, to cover for future defense outcomes. Aus and the SEA middle powers are having talks about obtaining nukes simply to prevent them being used against the countries. China is projected to grow to be double the size of the US's econony. China is willing to spend those benefits in the south China sea and on BRI. Make no mistake about the military of China. It is a concern. This is as big as power politics get.
- est31 7y ago
  That's why I said currently. I completely agree with you that the chinese military will increase in power and relevance.
- 7y ago