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They are wonderful cars and I have never heard anyone not loving the driving experience. The only concern that I think is preventing growth (Other than product

by zarro 7y ago

They are wonderful cars and I have never heard anyone not loving the driving experience. The only concern that I think is preventing growth (Other than production of course) - is the concern about long term reliability. If you buy a camry or prius you know almost for a fact, that your going to drive 200k miles without a problem, and if there is one, its recognized as an engineering failure and the dealership fixes it for free - and fast. But with Tesla, there are lots of rumors that the queue for getting stuff fixed it really long, and that after warranty expires, really expensive. What I am really scared of is another "BMW" style reliability experience, which I would consider to be a catastrophic failure on the part of Tesla. Edit - also accidents "caused" by "autopilot" software, and liability is still a big question.

manigandham 7y ago
Why would it be catastrophic? That kind of reliability works just fine for other luxury brands. Tesla's should naturally be better anyway due to the simpler drivetrain and lack of maintenance.
- zarro 7y ago
  I think that is a lazy business model, selling cars at a very low margin just so that you could make money by planned obsolescence and high cost replacement parts. I would rather buy a car for more money that's engineered to the best possible attainable engineering perfection than one that is not. Often, those more reliable cars are even cheaper and made in massive production. Given Teslas goal of accelerating the change to sustainable energy, it would be in their best interest to make the best possible and reliable car they could at the highest possible production numbers, instead of leaving a competitive advantage for toyota to take over reliable scalable production. Besides I would argue the purpose of the model 3 is a mass market vehicle that is really nice, and not just a niche "luxury" vehicle as is often implied.
  - jankyxenon 7y ago
    I don't think BMW's business model is lazy. You'll come up against design decisions again and again where the trade-off is performance vs. reliability. Toyota would more often choose the latter, BMW the former.
    - zarro 7y ago
      I disagree with the proposition that performance and reliability are categorically mutually exclusive.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- netsharc 7y ago
  With the difference that Teslas have Lithium batteries. Mobile phone batteries become so crap after a few years... Anyone have an old Model S and want to share their experience?
- faet 7y ago
  >Tesla’s should be better if anything due to the simpler drivetrain and lack of maintenance Eh, their reliability is much worse than other brands, even luxury brands. https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&max=2019 https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&... https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/tesla-model-3-loses-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf... If it "works" it's great. But, once out of warranty it can be expensive and delayed before you can get your car fixed. On my S, I had to replace 3 door handles, drive unit, screen, TPS, passenger mirror was replaced, and a few other things. This was ~3 years of ownership and < 30k miles. Many of these things had a long delay before they could get fixed. I was in a loaner for over 3 weeks while they fixed the drive unit. My father had an X that got bought back due to never being able to fix the rear door sensor. It would open a foot and freeze. He also had a handful of other issues. This was in less than a year of ownership. My neighbor with the 3 got into an accident. It's ~6-8 months for them to fix their rear bumper. Additionally, one of the seatbelt adjusters and one of the AC vents rattle. So he stuck a piece of foam in there. His charging port has frozen and needed a manual release. And he says the screen sometimes doesn't come on. The nearest dealership is 100 miles away. He got an appointment, drove, got a loaner, drove home. They were 'Unable to reproduce' the rattles/screen issue. So he had to drive back and pick up his car with nothing getting fixed.
  - 1123581321 7y ago
    What did Tesla say when your neighbor insisted they revisit the issues again before he drove back?
    - faet 7y ago
      He went on a ride along with them. But, they basically went around the block and it was fairly smooth. He said the AC vent was more noticeable at highway speeds, but they didn't want to go on the highway as they had their "own route". Additionally, the screen was working when they were there.
      - 7y ago
ses1984 7y ago
What dealership is going to fix for free the problem you run into at 8years/150k miles?
- sp332 7y ago
  I just got an extended warranty notice from BMW for a potential defect in my Mini Cooper's fuel pump (not a recall notice) that covered cars up to 160,000 miles.
  - ses1984 7y ago
    Maybe it has worked out for you, but I don't know all that much about cars and my experience is that dealers usually talk their way out of covering something or add one extra crap they say is not covered that costs a lot anyway.
    - lostapathy 7y ago
      I have had the opposite experience, FWIW. Dealers get reimbursed by the MFG for warranty claims, so I've had them cover things out of warranty or give me a rental car so they can pocket the money from the mfg. To the degree the last Jeep service I did they were SUPER pushy about giving me one of their "Rentals"
- zarro 7y ago
  Although it not "Guaranteed" you can rest assured when you buy a Prius for instance, the probability of you having a catastrophic failure or expensive repair before 200k miles is very low - and if it happens, is usually covered by Toyota themselves.
- deadmetheny 7y ago
  The kind of problem caused by a manufacturing defect that leads to a recall. Parent's overall point is that you can effectively drive these cars 200k+ miles until the wheels fall off, and if you can't, it's due to a defect like that. Tesla is a younger company and it's not yet apparent how the vehicle's end-of-life will play out like it is for these sorts of vehicles.
s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
There are only a couple dozen parts in a Tesla. Electric cars are much simpler in terms of mechanics, and everyone knows the more moving parts, the more likely it's to break. They don't need oil, there's no combustion, etc. Pretty much all you have to worry about are the tires and the battery. The battery is rated to 500K miles. Edit: wow the downvotes. You guys fall for media attack campaigns too easily. You can see the talking points (Look at the forums!!!!, This X person reported Y!) Even though we all know the loudest people go to the forums to complain, that's not an accurate representation of Tesla owners. And it's not even a valid complaint, it's a complaint of complaints. If you have a reason why it's unreliable, post it, don't point somewhere else or use a talking point. You guys have fell for the car industry and oil/gas industry's propaganda. You guys are now defending them and attacking an electric car company trying to dethrone them for the good of humanity.
- base698 7y ago
  Read the Tesla forums about the reliability issues they have, and awake to the marketing spin of "fewer parts" being conflated with more reliable.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    Anecdotes. I can find disgruntled users on any forum... Where are your sources that the less complicated drivetrain is more unreliable than an ICE drivetrain? Where are you sources the battery is not in general reaching its mileage rating?
    - nawitus 7y ago
      https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&max=2019 https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&...
    - mdorazio 7y ago
      Dismissing information you don't like as anecdote is not a healthy thing to do. Making up things to argue against is also not a healthy thing to do. No one in this thread even mentioned drivetrain. The issues with Tesla service wait times and reliability are well-publicized and mostly revolve around things that have nothing to do with the motor or battery [1][2][3]. Tesla just sucks at quality control and has a really bad service parts supply chain + network. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-16/tesla-order-breakdown-signals-service-a-risk-in-bmw-s-backyard https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-16/tesla-ord... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/some-tesla-customers-experience-service-problems-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/some-tesla-customers-experie... [3] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...
RegBarclay 7y ago
Cost and service (call it reliability) were my biggest issues. I have a long commute and needed to buy an economical car a little over 2 years ago. I live in a rural community and anticipated that it would be difficult to get a Tesla worked on. I pass multiple Chevy dealers on my way to work, so I bought a Cruze diesel. For the difference in up front cost, I can buy a lot of diesel -- at least enough for the first 200k miles and probably more. And if it breaks, I know I can get it serviced locally. Teslas are really cool cars, but the math and potential ownership hassles still don't work for me.
nordsieck 7y ago
> But with Tesla, there are lots of rumors that the queue for getting stuff fixed it really long, and that after warranty expires, really expensive. Rich rebuilds did a great video on the out of warranty costs of older Teslas [1]. The summary is: they're surprisingly expensive to run; major systems break much more frequently than I would expect of say... a Japanese car. The newer cars may or may not be better. ___ 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  How good are Japanese cars?
  - ultrasounder 7y ago
    They are extremely good. My first car was a 2005 Honda Civic that I drove for 10 years until I traded in for a First Gen leaf. Absolutely no down time. Changed all four tires once or twice. I went back and traded in my first gen leafs after 3 year lease expired and promptly bought a 2019 Honda Civic which drives like a charm. Even the whiz bang features like adaptive cruise and lane keep work perfectly! Very happy with the purchase, waiting for the 250 mi Honda Civic EV but am not holding my breath.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      >They are extremely good. Keep telling yourself that but it totally depends on what you get and who you are (i.e how you use it). '09 "CVT" Altima owned by literally anybody. -> crap '03 Accord owned by Grandma -> Perfectly fine car '11 Tacoma owned by Joe the scrapper -> Made a one way trip over the scrap scale 5yr ago. '11 Tacoma owned by upper middle class neighbor Steve who uses it to haul pine mulch for his garden and is generally easy on equipment -> Perfectly fine car. It takes little more than a pulse to get your hands on (for example) a Nissan Altima or a Dodge Journey. They are solidly meh vehicles and (for the most part) bought in droves by people who's credit leaves them little other option. Time is not kind to vehicles under that kind of ownership. They get serviced when they have problems that impede their usefulness, maybe. Meanwhile, in an upscale gated community across town 4Runners plastered in honors student stickers will see easy use (food spills in the rear seats and smelly sports equipment are not particularly hard on vehicles) will see the kind of preventive maintenance the authors of German car service schedules lust over. When it comes to longevity the way a vehicle is treated matters more than anything else and over 20+yr the seemingly small difference between how different groups treat their cars will compound to be the dominant term in the equation.
dv_dt 7y ago
> If you buy a camry or prius you know almost for a fact, that your going to drive 200k miles without a problem, and if there is one, its recognized as an engineering failure and the dealership fixes it for free - and fast. Nope, I had a Prius develop a problem where the entire dash display died at 105k, there was a previous recall for selected units of Prius for the same fault (not my S/N lot), but when it happened to me, I had to pay for a new one. You can see online where hackers fix the problem where it's a manufacturing fault with cold solder joints coming loose in the power circuitry. Complained to Toyota corporate about it, and they sent it back to the same dealership manager to rule against paying for it. Talked to other Prius owners that they did the same thing to. Makes me think twice about Toyota warranty coverage.
throwing838383 7y ago
Yup. I absolutely agree. this is exactly why tesla is not on the top of my to buy list. it's about total cost of ownership. All it takes is a couple of bad door handles (1500$ each) and a broken drive unit (10K$) and now your total cost 16K, just in repairs! if depreciation is roughly 15K over 10 years, then the cost of ownership doubles!
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  Why are the door handles that expensive? What can even break about them?
  - lozaning 7y ago
    They automagically extend out only when you're nearby, otherwise they're fully recessed into the car.
    - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
      Man I’d love to just throw a tesla engine into like a Corolla. I’m sure there’s good reasons it’s not like that but this is some stupid bullshit to have to wade through.
- xedeon 7y ago
  Your numbers are way off. Where did you get these figures? Citation needed... Model S (most expensive) door handles are $750 and the new revisions fixed this issue (2016+ model years). Or if you're adventurous you can DIY it and buy a replacement part/rebuild kit for $175: https://evtuning.com/products/model-s-door-handle-rebuild-kit-service https://evtuning.com/products/model-s-door-handle-rebuild-ki... Drive units are about ~$3-5K based on anecdotes from invoices by actual owners. This was in 2018, they are much cheaper now. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/charged-for-new-drive-unit.123192/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/charged-for-new-driv...
  - throwing838383 7y ago
segmondy 7y ago
If you understand how cars work, you should know that an electric cars will probably drive 1million miles. It has less moving parts than cars. Engines - 500parts, transmissions 2000+ parts. Tons of friction, heat, wear and tear. Electric cars are so much simpler and if anything will prove to be much more reliable than cars. If anything that's what those companies have to worry about. Why would anyone want to replace their car when they can just replace battery? i won't be surprised if this is the reason Tesla is almost treating it like a modern day product with software upgrades. I suspect in the future, they will have it where you can just replace the exterior panel to get a new car and have the interior easily swapable as well.
- randyrand 7y ago
  Id be more worried about the hassle/cost to repair all the “little” things that can really add up if parts and service are hard to find. Windows, door handles, air conditioning, bumpers, radar sensors, sun roofs, seat motors, wiper motors, door hinges.
  - xedeon 7y ago
    No really an issue at all. You can just use the Tesla parts catalog and call up Tesla to order a part. No middle man like AutoZone that get's a cut of the profit. https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs
  - segmondy 7y ago
    As the market scales up, OEM parts are going to be a thing.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  There is a big risk you swap one kind of issue for another... It's no longer head gaskets blowing - now the issue is obscure software bugs which trigger constant rebooting causing the car to be undrivable, or a temperature sensor broken making it think it's at -273 C. A Tesla engineer could totally erase and reset the car to fix it, but when the cars 10 years old and on its 3rd owner, that engineer has probably retired, and a third party can't do anything because the car software is encrypted.
NullPrefix 7y ago
>camry or prius you know almost for a fact, that your going to drive 200k miles without a problem Is that stated explicitly in the warranty or just marketed by 3rd parties (i.e. You), so that the seller cannot be held accountable?
xedeon 7y ago
200K miles is nothing. There are a few Tesla Model X/S's used by the Taxi service Tesloop that are 450K+ miles. Tesloop's "eHawk", the 2015 Tesla Model S over 450,000 miles (724,000 km), which is one of the highest mileages globally. A Model 3 can easily surpass that since hey are not as complex as the S/X. https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-s-surpasses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-...
- faet 7y ago
  Except the model 3 doesn't have an unlimited mile warranty for the battery. eHawk got two ~$5-7k batteries for free which wouldn't happen with the model 3. Additionally, they get a fair amount of "goodwill" work and inspections done. If you add in the costs for the two batteries that were replaced the TCO would be above that of the town car. Additionally, most taxis these days are hybrids which have a lower TCO than the ford. 20 mpg vs ~50 mpg, with a more reliable platform as well.
imglorp 7y ago
I wonder how the Tesla lease economics work out? Their lease is different than others in that you don't have th option to buy at the end of the lease--allegedly the cars will be going to an upcoming taxi service. Anyway, if Tesla will be assuming all the mechanical/reliability risk/unknowns, does a lease work out better?
11thEarlOfMar 7y ago
From a 33,000 mile view of Model 3 RWD, LR: - Oiled a squeaky driver side door - Replaced tires Meanwhile, some things got better: - Tesla increased range by 5%. - New audio CODECs improved sound. - Driving safety features improved, even sans AP/EAP. - Bunch of new toy features in the software. Stuff I wouldn't expect on a $50,000 car: - When rolled down, windows seem to not be secured within the door. Close the car door, and you can hear them bounce inside. - Trunk lid doesn't have that 'solid' sound when closing like my 328i did. Something of an interesting technical side effect: - I neglected to rotate my tires (bad, I know), and, I did not replace the front tires when the rear were done (RWD). That meant that the front turned at a slightly higher RPM than the rear, cuz the rear had full tread, the front about 25%. When I took hard turns, it also meant the inside wheels turned slower than the outside wheels. Hence, at that point, it's possible all 4 wheels are turning at slightly different rates. That seems to invoke traction control, something I never (literally) saw in 33,000 miles up to that point.

by zarro 7y ago

manigandham 7y ago

Why would it be catastrophic? That kind of reliability works just fine for other luxury brands. Tesla's should naturally be better anyway due to the simpler drivetrain and lack of maintenance.

zarro 7y ago
I think that is a lazy business model, selling cars at a very low margin just so that you could make money by planned obsolescence and high cost replacement parts. I would rather buy a car for more money that's engineered to the best possible attainable engineering perfection than one that is not. Often, those more reliable cars are even cheaper and made in massive production. Given Teslas goal of accelerating the change to sustainable energy, it would be in their best interest to make the best possible and reliable car they could at the highest possible production numbers, instead of leaving a competitive advantage for toyota to take over reliable scalable production. Besides I would argue the purpose of the model 3 is a mass market vehicle that is really nice, and not just a niche "luxury" vehicle as is often implied.
- jankyxenon 7y ago
  I don't think BMW's business model is lazy. You'll come up against design decisions again and again where the trade-off is performance vs. reliability. Toyota would more often choose the latter, BMW the former.
  - zarro 7y ago
    I disagree with the proposition that performance and reliability are categorically mutually exclusive.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
netsharc 7y ago
With the difference that Teslas have Lithium batteries. Mobile phone batteries become so crap after a few years... Anyone have an old Model S and want to share their experience?
faet 7y ago
>Tesla’s should be better if anything due to the simpler drivetrain and lack of maintenance Eh, their reliability is much worse than other brands, even luxury brands. https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&max=2019 https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&... https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/tesla-model-3-loses-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf... If it "works" it's great. But, once out of warranty it can be expensive and delayed before you can get your car fixed. On my S, I had to replace 3 door handles, drive unit, screen, TPS, passenger mirror was replaced, and a few other things. This was ~3 years of ownership and < 30k miles. Many of these things had a long delay before they could get fixed. I was in a loaner for over 3 weeks while they fixed the drive unit. My father had an X that got bought back due to never being able to fix the rear door sensor. It would open a foot and freeze. He also had a handful of other issues. This was in less than a year of ownership. My neighbor with the 3 got into an accident. It's ~6-8 months for them to fix their rear bumper. Additionally, one of the seatbelt adjusters and one of the AC vents rattle. So he stuck a piece of foam in there. His charging port has frozen and needed a manual release. And he says the screen sometimes doesn't come on. The nearest dealership is 100 miles away. He got an appointment, drove, got a loaner, drove home. They were 'Unable to reproduce' the rattles/screen issue. So he had to drive back and pick up his car with nothing getting fixed.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  What did Tesla say when your neighbor insisted they revisit the issues again before he drove back?
  - faet 7y ago
    He went on a ride along with them. But, they basically went around the block and it was fairly smooth. He said the AC vent was more noticeable at highway speeds, but they didn't want to go on the highway as they had their "own route". Additionally, the screen was working when they were there.
    - 7y ago

ses1984 7y ago

What dealership is going to fix for free the problem you run into at 8years/150k miles?

sp332 7y ago
I just got an extended warranty notice from BMW for a potential defect in my Mini Cooper's fuel pump (not a recall notice) that covered cars up to 160,000 miles.
- ses1984 7y ago
  Maybe it has worked out for you, but I don't know all that much about cars and my experience is that dealers usually talk their way out of covering something or add one extra crap they say is not covered that costs a lot anyway.
  - lostapathy 7y ago
    I have had the opposite experience, FWIW. Dealers get reimbursed by the MFG for warranty claims, so I've had them cover things out of warranty or give me a rental car so they can pocket the money from the mfg. To the degree the last Jeep service I did they were SUPER pushy about giving me one of their "Rentals"
zarro 7y ago
Although it not "Guaranteed" you can rest assured when you buy a Prius for instance, the probability of you having a catastrophic failure or expensive repair before 200k miles is very low - and if it happens, is usually covered by Toyota themselves.
deadmetheny 7y ago
The kind of problem caused by a manufacturing defect that leads to a recall. Parent's overall point is that you can effectively drive these cars 200k+ miles until the wheels fall off, and if you can't, it's due to a defect like that. Tesla is a younger company and it's not yet apparent how the vehicle's end-of-life will play out like it is for these sorts of vehicles.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago

There are only a couple dozen parts in a Tesla. Electric cars are much simpler in terms of mechanics, and everyone knows the more moving parts, the more likely it's to break. They don't need oil, there's no combustion, etc. Pretty much all you have to worry about are the tires and the battery. The battery is rated to 500K miles. Edit: wow the downvotes. You guys fall for media attack campaigns too easily. You can see the talking points (Look at the forums!!!!, This X person reported Y!) Even though we all know the loudest people go to the forums to complain, that's not an accurate representation of Tesla owners. And it's not even a valid complaint, it's a complaint of complaints. If you have a reason why it's unreliable, post it, don't point somewhere else or use a talking point. You guys have fell for the car industry and oil/gas industry's propaganda. You guys are now defending them and attacking an electric car company trying to dethrone them for the good of humanity.

base698 7y ago
Read the Tesla forums about the reliability issues they have, and awake to the marketing spin of "fewer parts" being conflated with more reliable.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  Anecdotes. I can find disgruntled users on any forum... Where are your sources that the less complicated drivetrain is more unreliable than an ICE drivetrain? Where are you sources the battery is not in general reaching its mileage rating?
  - nawitus 7y ago
    https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&max=2019 https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&...
  - mdorazio 7y ago
    Dismissing information you don't like as anecdote is not a healthy thing to do. Making up things to argue against is also not a healthy thing to do. No one in this thread even mentioned drivetrain. The issues with Tesla service wait times and reliability are well-publicized and mostly revolve around things that have nothing to do with the motor or battery [1][2][3]. Tesla just sucks at quality control and has a really bad service parts supply chain + network. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-16/tesla-order-breakdown-signals-service-a-risk-in-bmw-s-backyard https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-16/tesla-ord... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/some-tesla-customers-experience-service-problems-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/some-tesla-customers-experie... [3] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...

RegBarclay 7y ago

Cost and service (call it reliability) were my biggest issues. I have a long commute and needed to buy an economical car a little over 2 years ago. I live in a rural community and anticipated that it would be difficult to get a Tesla worked on. I pass multiple Chevy dealers on my way to work, so I bought a Cruze diesel. For the difference in up front cost, I can buy a lot of diesel -- at least enough for the first 200k miles and probably more. And if it breaks, I know I can get it serviced locally. Teslas are really cool cars, but the math and potential ownership hassles still don't work for me.

nordsieck 7y ago

> But with Tesla, there are lots of rumors that the queue for getting stuff fixed it really long, and that after warranty expires, really expensive. Rich rebuilds did a great video on the out of warranty costs of older Teslas [1]. The summary is: they're surprisingly expensive to run; major systems break much more frequently than I would expect of say... a Japanese car. The newer cars may or may not be better. ___ 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM

SomeOldThrow 7y ago
How good are Japanese cars?
- ultrasounder 7y ago
  They are extremely good. My first car was a 2005 Honda Civic that I drove for 10 years until I traded in for a First Gen leaf. Absolutely no down time. Changed all four tires once or twice. I went back and traded in my first gen leafs after 3 year lease expired and promptly bought a 2019 Honda Civic which drives like a charm. Even the whiz bang features like adaptive cruise and lane keep work perfectly! Very happy with the purchase, waiting for the 250 mi Honda Civic EV but am not holding my breath.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >They are extremely good. Keep telling yourself that but it totally depends on what you get and who you are (i.e how you use it). '09 "CVT" Altima owned by literally anybody. -> crap '03 Accord owned by Grandma -> Perfectly fine car '11 Tacoma owned by Joe the scrapper -> Made a one way trip over the scrap scale 5yr ago. '11 Tacoma owned by upper middle class neighbor Steve who uses it to haul pine mulch for his garden and is generally easy on equipment -> Perfectly fine car. It takes little more than a pulse to get your hands on (for example) a Nissan Altima or a Dodge Journey. They are solidly meh vehicles and (for the most part) bought in droves by people who's credit leaves them little other option. Time is not kind to vehicles under that kind of ownership. They get serviced when they have problems that impede their usefulness, maybe. Meanwhile, in an upscale gated community across town 4Runners plastered in honors student stickers will see easy use (food spills in the rear seats and smelly sports equipment are not particularly hard on vehicles) will see the kind of preventive maintenance the authors of German car service schedules lust over. When it comes to longevity the way a vehicle is treated matters more than anything else and over 20+yr the seemingly small difference between how different groups treat their cars will compound to be the dominant term in the equation.

dv_dt 7y ago

> If you buy a camry or prius you know almost for a fact, that your going to drive 200k miles without a problem, and if there is one, its recognized as an engineering failure and the dealership fixes it for free - and fast. Nope, I had a Prius develop a problem where the entire dash display died at 105k, there was a previous recall for selected units of Prius for the same fault (not my S/N lot), but when it happened to me, I had to pay for a new one. You can see online where hackers fix the problem where it's a manufacturing fault with cold solder joints coming loose in the power circuitry. Complained to Toyota corporate about it, and they sent it back to the same dealership manager to rule against paying for it. Talked to other Prius owners that they did the same thing to. Makes me think twice about Toyota warranty coverage.

throwing838383 7y ago

Yup. I absolutely agree. this is exactly why tesla is not on the top of my to buy list. it's about total cost of ownership. All it takes is a couple of bad door handles (1500$ each) and a broken drive unit (10K$) and now your total cost 16K, just in repairs! if depreciation is roughly 15K over 10 years, then the cost of ownership doubles!

SomeOldThrow 7y ago
Why are the door handles that expensive? What can even break about them?
- lozaning 7y ago
  They automagically extend out only when you're nearby, otherwise they're fully recessed into the car.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    Man I’d love to just throw a tesla engine into like a Corolla. I’m sure there’s good reasons it’s not like that but this is some stupid bullshit to have to wade through.
xedeon 7y ago
Your numbers are way off. Where did you get these figures? Citation needed... Model S (most expensive) door handles are $750 and the new revisions fixed this issue (2016+ model years). Or if you're adventurous you can DIY it and buy a replacement part/rebuild kit for $175: https://evtuning.com/products/model-s-door-handle-rebuild-kit-service https://evtuning.com/products/model-s-door-handle-rebuild-ki... Drive units are about ~$3-5K based on anecdotes from invoices by actual owners. This was in 2018, they are much cheaper now. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/charged-for-new-drive-unit.123192/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/charged-for-new-driv...
- throwing838383 7y ago

segmondy 7y ago

If you understand how cars work, you should know that an electric cars will probably drive 1million miles. It has less moving parts than cars. Engines - 500parts, transmissions 2000+ parts. Tons of friction, heat, wear and tear. Electric cars are so much simpler and if anything will prove to be much more reliable than cars. If anything that's what those companies have to worry about. Why would anyone want to replace their car when they can just replace battery? i won't be surprised if this is the reason Tesla is almost treating it like a modern day product with software upgrades. I suspect in the future, they will have it where you can just replace the exterior panel to get a new car and have the interior easily swapable as well.

randyrand 7y ago
Id be more worried about the hassle/cost to repair all the “little” things that can really add up if parts and service are hard to find. Windows, door handles, air conditioning, bumpers, radar sensors, sun roofs, seat motors, wiper motors, door hinges.
- xedeon 7y ago
  No really an issue at all. You can just use the Tesla parts catalog and call up Tesla to order a part. No middle man like AutoZone that get's a cut of the profit. https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs
- segmondy 7y ago
  As the market scales up, OEM parts are going to be a thing.
londons_explore 7y ago
There is a big risk you swap one kind of issue for another... It's no longer head gaskets blowing - now the issue is obscure software bugs which trigger constant rebooting causing the car to be undrivable, or a temperature sensor broken making it think it's at -273 C. A Tesla engineer could totally erase and reset the car to fix it, but when the cars 10 years old and on its 3rd owner, that engineer has probably retired, and a third party can't do anything because the car software is encrypted.

NullPrefix 7y ago

>camry or prius you know almost for a fact, that your going to drive 200k miles without a problem Is that stated explicitly in the warranty or just marketed by 3rd parties (i.e. You), so that the seller cannot be held accountable?

xedeon 7y ago

200K miles is nothing. There are a few Tesla Model X/S's used by the Taxi service Tesloop that are 450K+ miles. Tesloop's "eHawk", the 2015 Tesla Model S over 450,000 miles (724,000 km), which is one of the highest mileages globally. A Model 3 can easily surpass that since hey are not as complex as the S/X. https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-s-surpasses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-...

faet 7y ago
Except the model 3 doesn't have an unlimited mile warranty for the battery. eHawk got two ~$5-7k batteries for free which wouldn't happen with the model 3. Additionally, they get a fair amount of "goodwill" work and inspections done. If you add in the costs for the two batteries that were replaced the TCO would be above that of the town car. Additionally, most taxis these days are hybrids which have a lower TCO than the ford. 20 mpg vs ~50 mpg, with a more reliable platform as well.

imglorp 7y ago

I wonder how the Tesla lease economics work out? Their lease is different than others in that you don't have th option to buy at the end of the lease--allegedly the cars will be going to an upcoming taxi service. Anyway, if Tesla will be assuming all the mechanical/reliability risk/unknowns, does a lease work out better?

11thEarlOfMar 7y ago

From a 33,000 mile view of Model 3 RWD, LR: - Oiled a squeaky driver side door - Replaced tires Meanwhile, some things got better: - Tesla increased range by 5%. - New audio CODECs improved sound. - Driving safety features improved, even sans AP/EAP. - Bunch of new toy features in the software. Stuff I wouldn't expect on a $50,000 car: - When rolled down, windows seem to not be secured within the door. Close the car door, and you can hear them bounce inside. - Trunk lid doesn't have that 'solid' sound when closing like my 328i did. Something of an interesting technical side effect: - I neglected to rotate my tires (bad, I know), and, I did not replace the front tires when the rear were done (RWD). That meant that the front turned at a slightly higher RPM than the rear, cuz the rear had full tread, the front about 25%. When I took hard turns, it also meant the inside wheels turned slower than the outside wheels. Hence, at that point, it's possible all 4 wheels are turning at slightly different rates. That seems to invoke traction control, something I never (literally) saw in 33,000 miles up to that point.