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> Anyway, were any of you who are complaining in this thread planning on actually publishing an app for macOS, or just here to beat a dead horse? Anecdotally,

> Anyway, were any of you who are complaining in this thread planning on actually publishing an app for macOS, or just here to beat a dead horse? Anecdotally, I find that the people who are loudest about Apple's misdeeds (both real and assumed) are often people who've never even used an Apple product. There is plenty of legit criticism of Apple to be made, and you certainly don't have to be an Apple customer to make it. But half the time what I see instead is pearl-clutching from people who don't have enough experience with the platform in question to tell what an announced change even does, blowing up what amount to minor inconveniences into the end of all life as we know it.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> Anecdotally, I find that the people who are loudest about Apple's misdeeds (both real and assumed) are often people who've never even used an Apple product. The other side of this is, when I complain about Apple not allowing sideloading on iOS, I get asked why I use an iPhone if I don't like the policy. (fwiw, I have no issues with macOS as long as unsigned apps can still be run, and lots of issues with iOS where they cannot be.)
- filleduchaos 7y ago
  And that's a legitimate complaint, and one I have as well (though my issue is less with not allowing sideloading and more with the pretty high barrier to entry to the only official distribution method. I'd be pretty much okay with being unable to sideload apps on iOS, but having a free and more lax tier of the App Store for hobbyists (somewhat akin to Youtube's unlisted videos or Qt's licensing).
- hultner 7y ago
  But you can sideload an application, you just need to use as computer to do it.
  - rock_artist 7y ago
    there’s no way to publish apps to iOS except paid Apple Developer account. That’s different than all other platforms where we can get any binary to run. Other companies only require account for using non-OS API such as Firebase / Google Services for example.
    - filleduchaos 7y ago
      You very much can build and sideload an IPA on iOS if you have (access to) a computer running macOS. Sure that's beyond the reach of most people, but how on earth do you people imagine that people develop and test new apps on iOS devices if you think an app _must_ be published to the App Store to run at all?
      - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        I feel like I have this discussion every week. It’s technically possible but—by design—practically unworkable for apps you actually want to use rather than just test. They expire after seven days, at which point you need to reconnect to a computer and reinstall them.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        You don't actually need the latter.
      - tinus_hn 7y ago
        It only works for a short amount of time which makes this rather impractical.
    - sdrothrock 7y ago
      Have you heard/of looked at AltStore?
      - rock_artist 7y ago
        Yes. It’s interesting approach. Still your apps will be timebombed for 7 days. Imagine making a app for private use by my family and going on vacation longer than 7 days. I must have access to my computer...
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  I'm not sure that I follow. You can sideload apps on iOS. Is the issue that you have to use a computer to do it? I kinda like that requirement because it means that I'm technically capable enough to make a potentially system-breaking change. It's not as nice and friendly about it as macOS but I think it's a fair compromise.
  - wademealing 7y ago
    No, its the fact that you need to re-upload that app every 7 days..
raxxorrax 7y ago
I have to use so Apple products, although mainly mobile devices. I don't have any deeper prejudice against the users but think the devices are mostly useless.
trothamel 7y ago
Should people be required to own a Mac to release desktop software for the Mac? It is - or at least was - quite possible to make an application in Electron or Java or some other tool and release it cross-platform, having beta testers handle platforms specific testing. Now, Apple is making that impossible, which hurts developers who can't afford to go all-in on the mac platform.
- filleduchaos 7y ago
  I don't quite see how that at all follows, considering that notarization is something you can do from e.g. a CI server. I'm concerned at this point about if anybody that this supposedly effects has actually done any research at all on it.
  - digitalsushi 7y ago
    The last place I worked at, it was socially forbidden to automate the digital signing process, such as in a CD pipeline. Now I'm curious to hear if we were being paranoid.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Should people be required to own a Mac to release desktop software for the Mac? How do you test your software without the machine you're targeting? Every programmer knows that VMs aren't as good as the real thing.
  - trothamel 7y ago
    You send it to a friend of yours that has a mac, but isn't a developer.
    - ryandrake 7y ago
      I hope you are being sarcastic! That’s a low quality assurance bar, even by a hobbyist’s standards. “My friend with one Mac running one OS version says it works, therefore I’m ready to release?”
jstummbillig 7y ago
> Anecdotally, I find that the people who are loudest about Apple's misdeeds (both real and assumed) are often people who've never even used an Apple product. Interesting. The number of people of who I know that they have complained about Apple, and of who I also know that they have never used an Apple product is zero.
- wayneftw 7y ago
  Yeah, and I guess I’m not allowed to complain about why I don’t want to participate on a platform that I think is despicable? In my business, we need to put stuff in the iOS app store, but not the Mac app store. So, while I’m forced to use a Mac for that, I hate the whole Apple ecosystem and just about the way they do everything, so I’ll gladly and loudly tell you why. Nothing wrong with that and while Apple still has vehement supporters, it’s not a dead horse IMO. This complaint about the complainers is like complaining how HN talks about China. We don’t live there, but what they do certainly affects the rest of the world. And Apple is politically the China of hardware and software. No freedom, petty behavior and tons of propaganda.
  - filleduchaos 7y ago
    > There is plenty of legit criticism of Apple to be made, and you certainly don't have to be an Apple customer to make it. My comment was not a particularly long one. Try reading it through the end.
    - wayneftw 7y ago
      If your comment wasn’t the one that I was describing...or even responding to, then I think you can safely assume that your comment wasn’t the one that I was talking about. xD I was agreeing with this person that I responded to and talking about the one that you responded to. It’s definitely easy to get confused with the HN ui though. I wish they would put vertical lines or something to the parent comment or just think of something better. I thought we had half of the worlds software geniuses here! Can’t we figure this out?
- 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
deogeo 7y ago
> Anecdotally, I find that the people who are loudest about Apple's misdeeds (both real and assumed) are often people who've never even used an Apple product. And those who are loudest about animal abuse in factory farming, don't eat meat.
pranau 7y ago
Interestingly, I find the same to be true about people who complain about Android here on HN. And I feel it is for the same reason as you've mentioned. I cannot count the number of times I've had to laugh in pain at the shocking ignorance displayed by a large number of users when talking about Android and other associated Google products.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

> Anecdotally, I find that the people who are loudest about Apple's misdeeds (both real and assumed) are often people who've never even used an Apple product. The other side of this is, when I complain about Apple not allowing sideloading on iOS, I get asked why I use an iPhone if I don't like the policy. (fwiw, I have no issues with macOS as long as unsigned apps can still be run, and lots of issues with iOS where they cannot be.)

filleduchaos 7y ago
And that's a legitimate complaint, and one I have as well (though my issue is less with not allowing sideloading and more with the pretty high barrier to entry to the only official distribution method. I'd be pretty much okay with being unable to sideload apps on iOS, but having a free and more lax tier of the App Store for hobbyists (somewhat akin to Youtube's unlisted videos or Qt's licensing).
hultner 7y ago
But you can sideload an application, you just need to use as computer to do it.
- rock_artist 7y ago
  there’s no way to publish apps to iOS except paid Apple Developer account. That’s different than all other platforms where we can get any binary to run. Other companies only require account for using non-OS API such as Firebase / Google Services for example.
  - filleduchaos 7y ago
    You very much can build and sideload an IPA on iOS if you have (access to) a computer running macOS. Sure that's beyond the reach of most people, but how on earth do you people imagine that people develop and test new apps on iOS devices if you think an app _must_ be published to the App Store to run at all?
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      I feel like I have this discussion every week. It’s technically possible but—by design—practically unworkable for apps you actually want to use rather than just test. They expire after seven days, at which point you need to reconnect to a computer and reinstall them.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      You don't actually need the latter.
    - tinus_hn 7y ago
      It only works for a short amount of time which makes this rather impractical.
  - sdrothrock 7y ago
    Have you heard/of looked at AltStore?
    - rock_artist 7y ago
      Yes. It’s interesting approach. Still your apps will be timebombed for 7 days. Imagine making a app for private use by my family and going on vacation longer than 7 days. I must have access to my computer...
dkonofalski 7y ago
I'm not sure that I follow. You can sideload apps on iOS. Is the issue that you have to use a computer to do it? I kinda like that requirement because it means that I'm technically capable enough to make a potentially system-breaking change. It's not as nice and friendly about it as macOS but I think it's a fair compromise.
- wademealing 7y ago
  No, its the fact that you need to re-upload that app every 7 days..

raxxorrax 7y ago

I have to use so Apple products, although mainly mobile devices. I don't have any deeper prejudice against the users but think the devices are mostly useless.

trothamel 7y ago

Should people be required to own a Mac to release desktop software for the Mac? It is - or at least was - quite possible to make an application in Electron or Java or some other tool and release it cross-platform, having beta testers handle platforms specific testing. Now, Apple is making that impossible, which hurts developers who can't afford to go all-in on the mac platform.

filleduchaos 7y ago
I don't quite see how that at all follows, considering that notarization is something you can do from e.g. a CI server. I'm concerned at this point about if anybody that this supposedly effects has actually done any research at all on it.
- digitalsushi 7y ago
  The last place I worked at, it was socially forbidden to automate the digital signing process, such as in a CD pipeline. Now I'm curious to hear if we were being paranoid.
reaperducer 7y ago
Should people be required to own a Mac to release desktop software for the Mac? How do you test your software without the machine you're targeting? Every programmer knows that VMs aren't as good as the real thing.
- trothamel 7y ago
  You send it to a friend of yours that has a mac, but isn't a developer.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    I hope you are being sarcastic! That’s a low quality assurance bar, even by a hobbyist’s standards. “My friend with one Mac running one OS version says it works, therefore I’m ready to release?”

jstummbillig 7y ago

> Anecdotally, I find that the people who are loudest about Apple's misdeeds (both real and assumed) are often people who've never even used an Apple product. Interesting. The number of people of who I know that they have complained about Apple, and of who I also know that they have never used an Apple product is zero.

wayneftw 7y ago
Yeah, and I guess I’m not allowed to complain about why I don’t want to participate on a platform that I think is despicable? In my business, we need to put stuff in the iOS app store, but not the Mac app store. So, while I’m forced to use a Mac for that, I hate the whole Apple ecosystem and just about the way they do everything, so I’ll gladly and loudly tell you why. Nothing wrong with that and while Apple still has vehement supporters, it’s not a dead horse IMO. This complaint about the complainers is like complaining how HN talks about China. We don’t live there, but what they do certainly affects the rest of the world. And Apple is politically the China of hardware and software. No freedom, petty behavior and tons of propaganda.
- filleduchaos 7y ago
  > There is plenty of legit criticism of Apple to be made, and you certainly don't have to be an Apple customer to make it. My comment was not a particularly long one. Try reading it through the end.
  - wayneftw 7y ago
    If your comment wasn’t the one that I was describing...or even responding to, then I think you can safely assume that your comment wasn’t the one that I was talking about. xD I was agreeing with this person that I responded to and talking about the one that you responded to. It’s definitely easy to get confused with the HN ui though. I wish they would put vertical lines or something to the parent comment or just think of something better. I thought we had half of the worlds software geniuses here! Can’t we figure this out?
7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deogeo 7y ago

> Anecdotally, I find that the people who are loudest about Apple's misdeeds (both real and assumed) are often people who've never even used an Apple product. And those who are loudest about animal abuse in factory farming, don't eat meat.

pranau 7y ago

Interestingly, I find the same to be true about people who complain about Android here on HN. And I feel it is for the same reason as you've mentioned. I cannot count the number of times I've had to laugh in pain at the shocking ignorance displayed by a large number of users when talking about Android and other associated Google products.