9 ms·

Zachtronics: Ten Years of Terrible Games (2017) [video]

142 points by Red_Tarsius 7y ago

AlEinstein 7y ago
If you've not heard of TIS-100 then, given that you're currently on a site called "Hacker News", I heartily recommend it to you: http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/ http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/ Also excellent is Shenzhen IO: http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/ http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/ Also excellent is everything here: http://www.zachtronics.com http://www.zachtronics.com
- soup10 7y ago
  Nothing like a nice relaxing game of assembly language programming.
  - adele11 7y ago
    You'd have to pay me to play that game.
    - Tepix 7y ago
      Haha! I played a dozen or so levels and had a really good time until I reached a point where it started to feel very much like (usually paid) work.
- thethirdone 7y ago
  I would recommend Opus Magnum over TIS-100 even for people on this site. Its the result of the Zachatronics formula having time to grow after SpaceChem. The main reason I personally prefer Opus Magnum is that solving the levels is easy, but optimizing is challenging and rewarding. TIS-100 on the other hand has a higher difficulty to initially solve the puzzles and optimization becomes a little bit of a guessing game. Also having only 3 saved solutions per level makes it hard to optimize without losing past solutions.
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    SpaceChem is like this too. Even I could beat almost all the levels. And then I watch this tournament on YouTube and remember that some people are Flippin geniuses. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0PcDuxlam1bDnEfuT15RAE8K6PCXQ0Kv https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0PcDuxlam1bDnEfuT15R... (skip to "Week 1 Results" and watch the rest of thr Playlist. It's fascinating stuff. Seriously. Watch.)
    - thethirdone 7y ago
      I haven't played completely through SpaceChem so I don't actually know how hard it gets. I lost my save for the game and the UI is frustrating enough I don't want to slog through the early levels when I haven't optimized the newer Zachatronics games to my satisfaction.
  - LEARAX 7y ago
    Personally, I found Opus Magnum far too easy. In TIS-100, the constraints are brutal, and I often made multiple attempts before I was successful. In Opus Magnum, I finished every puzzle on my first try. You have almost no constraints. While optimizing is still a challenge, it felt much less rewarding to me. I feel no compulsion to return to OM after finishing the main campaign, but I return to TIS-100 every few months or so to mess around with the harder puzzles. The 3 saved puzzles is a bit annoying, but you can always backup the puzzle files since they're just text.
    - thethirdone 7y ago
      > In Opus Magnum, I finished every puzzle on my first try. I never was close to failing to finish a puzzle in OM. It was just a matter of how poor my solution performed whatever metric I chose to optimize first. The puzzles at the end of the campaign had me "give up" and settle for an ugly slow solution though. > I feel no compulsion to return to OM after finishing the main campaign If you haven't tried the Journal puzzles in OM, I would recommend you give them a shot. Many of them are in confined spaces rather than an infinite plane. I have yet to find a puzzle as hard as the ones in the TIS-NET directory, but they are a step up from the rest of the OM puzzles in terms of difficulty.
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  Every time I think about playing those games, I can't help but be dissuaded by the likelihood that learning actual machine language for ARM or x86-64 would be considerably less difficult and, in the long run, more beneficial to me.
  - AlEinstein 7y ago
    I totally get what you're saying. For x86-64 I recommend Ray Seyfarth's book: http://rayseyfarth.com/asm/ http://rayseyfarth.com/asm/ But I can't help suggesting you try TIS-100. It's genuinely enjoyable and not like regular assembly at all.
  - jonesetc 7y ago
    Learning an actual machine language is definitely harder, all of these games use extremely limited instruction sets and/or simplified operating conditions. As for more beneficial, I'm sure learning a real practical machine language is more beneficial. However you can definitely draw some of the same lessons out of these games and depending on you, might have a lot more fun and chances of actually going through with playing these games.
    - lloeki 7y ago
      Harder indeed (in some ways) but the raw satisfaction of booting your first toy OS on bare metal is unmatched. I enjoyed writing a DCPU-16 emulator very much though. https://github.com/lloeki/python-dcpu_16 https://github.com/lloeki/python-dcpu_16
      - jdmichal 7y ago
        You just reminded me that I wrote a stack language for DCPU16 back in the frenzy. It gave me an excuse to learn the IronMeta parser generator, which is an implementation of OMeta. Unfortunately I kept it on Codeplex and never bothered to move it since the entire idea was dead by that time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMeta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMeta https://github.com/kulibali/ironmeta https://github.com/kulibali/ironmeta https://archive.codeplex.com/?p=stackr https://archive.codeplex.com/?p=stackr
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Another older but really good Zachtronics game that I like to recommend is KOHCTPYKTOP, which simulates something similar to MOS semiconductor logic. Your job is to build ICs which conform to predefined stimulus/response patterns. Unfortunately, it requires Flash, so it may be difficult to get to run in a browser nowadays. Totally worth it, though! http://www.zachtronics.com/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-people/ http://www.zachtronics.com/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-peopl...
  - cmaggard 7y ago
    It's also available in ZACH-LIKE [0], a free compilation of a bunch of his earlier flash games. Windows-only, however. [0] https://store.steampowered.com/app/1098840/ZACHLIKE/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1098840/ZACHLIKE/
    - Tepix 7y ago
      Zach-Like is primarily "A book of behind-the-scenes design documents from Zachtronics." Now that the kickstarter is finished it's available for free as PDF (link in parent post) "In addition to PDFs of the book, the digital version contains all pre-SpaceChem Zachtronics games and a bunch of early builds and prototypes, including some of the unreleased games depicted in ZACH-LIKE."
  - abtinf 7y ago
    This sounds similar to a more recent Zachtronics game, Shenzhen I/O. How does it compare?
    - dancek 7y ago
      They're very different. SHENZHEN I/O is mostly about microcontroller programming. KOHCTPYKTOP has you building semiconductors by drawing lines. Of course the latter influenced the former, but the gameplay is just completely different. There are videos of both online if you want to get a better idea.
  - i_don_t_know 7y ago
- gravypod 7y ago
  One of the newer titles, EXAPUNKS, is a cyberpunk-themed programming game. Music is extremely good, levels were pretty hard, the zines were well written, and the "home screen" of your system has a chat client open where every few levels there's a short conversation. It is probably my favorite game released in the last few years.
- tiborsaas 7y ago
  I just started to pick up assembly for a fun project. Would this help to strengthen some muscles?
  - slampig 7y ago
    Maybe, but not really. The challenge in this game comes mostly from arbitrary line count limitations between imaginary "nodes" and their connections. You are writing some thing very close to assembly, but the problems you'll face are mostly unique to this game. It's terrific fun so you should definetly pick it up though!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
joshschreuder 7y ago
Also worth listening to the Zachtronics Podcast http://www.zachtronics.com/podcast/ http://www.zachtronics.com/podcast/ There hasn't been a new ep in a while but it's an interesting insight into behind the scenes of developing games (and whatever Universe Sandbox is)
Tepix 7y ago
Zach also wrote Infiniminer ( http://www.zachtronics.com/infiniminer/ http://www.zachtronics.com/infiniminer/ ) , which was the main inspiration for Minecraft. "Infiniminer is a first-person competitive mining game that takes place in a procedurally generated block world allowing players to mine, build, and explore. Sound familiar? That’s because Infiniminer is the game that started the “block genre” that everyone knows and loves!" Download at http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/infiniminer/ http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/infi...
- correct_horse 7y ago
  I watched an interview in which Zach said that he gave infiniminer away for free because he didn't think anyone would want to pay for such a game. Ironically Minecraft is the video game that has sold the most copies.
  - wccrawford 7y ago
    My understanding is that Minecraft exists because Zach refused to takes Notch's suggestions on how to improve it. So Notch wrote Minecraft, a better version, and sold it. And it worked out really well. Infiniminer might have sold, but it wouldn't have sold as well as Minecraft. And Minecraft then brought traffic to Zach (via people wanting to learn about Infiniminer) to drive sales on his other games, which seems to have worked out well in the end.
    - j-pb 7y ago
      Still bothers me that with Notch we now have one more right wing white supremacist billionaire, while Zach seems to be a really nice guy that would probably have used that money for some common good like education :/
      - gameswithgo 7y ago
        maybe if zach had become a billionaire he would have ended up a crazed alcoholic too? I don't know. (note, I don't actually KNOW that notch is an alcoholic his tweets just resemble mine when I've had too much to drink, times ten)
theelous3 7y ago
I was quite a big fan of Shenzhen IO. I found myself wanting to take it in to the real world, but really lost as to where to begin. Anyone have any ideas or resources?
- aezakmi 7y ago
  Also interested on this one.
- chapium 7y ago
  Someday I mean to finish this game. I love the concept but forget how to play in between sessions.
- chapium 7y ago
  Bread board and an electronics kit can get you started. Circuit logic works even iff all you have is a 9v battery.
azhenley 7y ago
Zachtronic games are great. If you want something you can play on your phone, take a look at Human Resource Machine. Different developer but still a coding game.

142 points by Red_Tarsius 7y ago

If you've not heard of TIS-100 then, given that you're currently on a site called "Hacker News", I heartily recommend it to you: http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/ http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/ Also excellent is Shenzhen IO: http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/ http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/ Also excellent is everything here: http://www.zachtronics.com http://www.zachtronics.com

soup10 7y ago
Nothing like a nice relaxing game of assembly language programming.
- adele11 7y ago
  You'd have to pay me to play that game.
  - Tepix 7y ago
    Haha! I played a dozen or so levels and had a really good time until I reached a point where it started to feel very much like (usually paid) work.
thethirdone 7y ago
I would recommend Opus Magnum over TIS-100 even for people on this site. Its the result of the Zachatronics formula having time to grow after SpaceChem. The main reason I personally prefer Opus Magnum is that solving the levels is easy, but optimizing is challenging and rewarding. TIS-100 on the other hand has a higher difficulty to initially solve the puzzles and optimization becomes a little bit of a guessing game. Also having only 3 saved solutions per level makes it hard to optimize without losing past solutions.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  SpaceChem is like this too. Even I could beat almost all the levels. And then I watch this tournament on YouTube and remember that some people are Flippin geniuses. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0PcDuxlam1bDnEfuT15RAE8K6PCXQ0Kv https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0PcDuxlam1bDnEfuT15R... (skip to "Week 1 Results" and watch the rest of thr Playlist. It's fascinating stuff. Seriously. Watch.)
  - thethirdone 7y ago
    I haven't played completely through SpaceChem so I don't actually know how hard it gets. I lost my save for the game and the UI is frustrating enough I don't want to slog through the early levels when I haven't optimized the newer Zachatronics games to my satisfaction.
- LEARAX 7y ago
  Personally, I found Opus Magnum far too easy. In TIS-100, the constraints are brutal, and I often made multiple attempts before I was successful. In Opus Magnum, I finished every puzzle on my first try. You have almost no constraints. While optimizing is still a challenge, it felt much less rewarding to me. I feel no compulsion to return to OM after finishing the main campaign, but I return to TIS-100 every few months or so to mess around with the harder puzzles. The 3 saved puzzles is a bit annoying, but you can always backup the puzzle files since they're just text.
  - thethirdone 7y ago
    > In Opus Magnum, I finished every puzzle on my first try. I never was close to failing to finish a puzzle in OM. It was just a matter of how poor my solution performed whatever metric I chose to optimize first. The puzzles at the end of the campaign had me "give up" and settle for an ugly slow solution though. > I feel no compulsion to return to OM after finishing the main campaign If you haven't tried the Journal puzzles in OM, I would recommend you give them a shot. Many of them are in confined spaces rather than an infinite plane. I have yet to find a puzzle as hard as the ones in the TIS-NET directory, but they are a step up from the rest of the OM puzzles in terms of difficulty.
ThrowawayR2 7y ago
Every time I think about playing those games, I can't help but be dissuaded by the likelihood that learning actual machine language for ARM or x86-64 would be considerably less difficult and, in the long run, more beneficial to me.
- AlEinstein 7y ago
  I totally get what you're saying. For x86-64 I recommend Ray Seyfarth's book: http://rayseyfarth.com/asm/ http://rayseyfarth.com/asm/ But I can't help suggesting you try TIS-100. It's genuinely enjoyable and not like regular assembly at all.
- jonesetc 7y ago
  Learning an actual machine language is definitely harder, all of these games use extremely limited instruction sets and/or simplified operating conditions. As for more beneficial, I'm sure learning a real practical machine language is more beneficial. However you can definitely draw some of the same lessons out of these games and depending on you, might have a lot more fun and chances of actually going through with playing these games.
  - lloeki 7y ago
    Harder indeed (in some ways) but the raw satisfaction of booting your first toy OS on bare metal is unmatched. I enjoyed writing a DCPU-16 emulator very much though. https://github.com/lloeki/python-dcpu_16 https://github.com/lloeki/python-dcpu_16
    - jdmichal 7y ago
      You just reminded me that I wrote a stack language for DCPU16 back in the frenzy. It gave me an excuse to learn the IronMeta parser generator, which is an implementation of OMeta. Unfortunately I kept it on Codeplex and never bothered to move it since the entire idea was dead by that time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMeta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMeta https://github.com/kulibali/ironmeta https://github.com/kulibali/ironmeta https://archive.codeplex.com/?p=stackr https://archive.codeplex.com/?p=stackr
duskwuff 7y ago
Another older but really good Zachtronics game that I like to recommend is KOHCTPYKTOP, which simulates something similar to MOS semiconductor logic. Your job is to build ICs which conform to predefined stimulus/response patterns. Unfortunately, it requires Flash, so it may be difficult to get to run in a browser nowadays. Totally worth it, though! http://www.zachtronics.com/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-people/ http://www.zachtronics.com/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-peopl...
- cmaggard 7y ago
  It's also available in ZACH-LIKE [0], a free compilation of a bunch of his earlier flash games. Windows-only, however. [0] https://store.steampowered.com/app/1098840/ZACHLIKE/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1098840/ZACHLIKE/
  - Tepix 7y ago
    Zach-Like is primarily "A book of behind-the-scenes design documents from Zachtronics." Now that the kickstarter is finished it's available for free as PDF (link in parent post) "In addition to PDFs of the book, the digital version contains all pre-SpaceChem Zachtronics games and a bunch of early builds and prototypes, including some of the unreleased games depicted in ZACH-LIKE."
- abtinf 7y ago
  This sounds similar to a more recent Zachtronics game, Shenzhen I/O. How does it compare?
  - dancek 7y ago
    They're very different. SHENZHEN I/O is mostly about microcontroller programming. KOHCTPYKTOP has you building semiconductors by drawing lines. Of course the latter influenced the former, but the gameplay is just completely different. There are videos of both online if you want to get a better idea.
- i_don_t_know 7y ago
gravypod 7y ago
One of the newer titles, EXAPUNKS, is a cyberpunk-themed programming game. Music is extremely good, levels were pretty hard, the zines were well written, and the "home screen" of your system has a chat client open where every few levels there's a short conversation. It is probably my favorite game released in the last few years.
tiborsaas 7y ago
I just started to pick up assembly for a fun project. Would this help to strengthen some muscles?
- slampig 7y ago
  Maybe, but not really. The challenge in this game comes mostly from arbitrary line count limitations between imaginary "nodes" and their connections. You are writing some thing very close to assembly, but the problems you'll face are mostly unique to this game. It's terrific fun so you should definetly pick it up though!

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

joshschreuder 7y ago

Also worth listening to the Zachtronics Podcast http://www.zachtronics.com/podcast/ http://www.zachtronics.com/podcast/ There hasn't been a new ep in a while but it's an interesting insight into behind the scenes of developing games (and whatever Universe Sandbox is)

Tepix 7y ago

Zach also wrote Infiniminer ( http://www.zachtronics.com/infiniminer/ http://www.zachtronics.com/infiniminer/ ) , which was the main inspiration for Minecraft. "Infiniminer is a first-person competitive mining game that takes place in a procedurally generated block world allowing players to mine, build, and explore. Sound familiar? That’s because Infiniminer is the game that started the “block genre” that everyone knows and loves!" Download at http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/infiniminer/ http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/infi...

correct_horse 7y ago
I watched an interview in which Zach said that he gave infiniminer away for free because he didn't think anyone would want to pay for such a game. Ironically Minecraft is the video game that has sold the most copies.
- wccrawford 7y ago
  My understanding is that Minecraft exists because Zach refused to takes Notch's suggestions on how to improve it. So Notch wrote Minecraft, a better version, and sold it. And it worked out really well. Infiniminer might have sold, but it wouldn't have sold as well as Minecraft. And Minecraft then brought traffic to Zach (via people wanting to learn about Infiniminer) to drive sales on his other games, which seems to have worked out well in the end.
  - j-pb 7y ago
    Still bothers me that with Notch we now have one more right wing white supremacist billionaire, while Zach seems to be a really nice guy that would probably have used that money for some common good like education :/
    - gameswithgo 7y ago
      maybe if zach had become a billionaire he would have ended up a crazed alcoholic too? I don't know. (note, I don't actually KNOW that notch is an alcoholic his tweets just resemble mine when I've had too much to drink, times ten)

theelous3 7y ago

I was quite a big fan of Shenzhen IO. I found myself wanting to take it in to the real world, but really lost as to where to begin. Anyone have any ideas or resources?

aezakmi 7y ago
Also interested on this one.
chapium 7y ago
Someday I mean to finish this game. I love the concept but forget how to play in between sessions.
chapium 7y ago
Bread board and an electronics kit can get you started. Circuit logic works even iff all you have is a 9v battery.

azhenley 7y ago

Zachtronic games are great. If you want something you can play on your phone, take a look at Human Resource Machine. Different developer but still a coding game.