4 ms·

I don’t know how things are in Paris (never really been), but here in NYC public transit is extremely unreliable and optimized for only one use case: to move 9-

by maxaf 7y ago

I don’t know how things are in Paris (never really been), but here in NYC public transit is extremely unreliable and optimized for only one use case: to move 9-5 commuters between their homes in the outer boroughs and the two central business districts of Manhattan. For any other use case the transit system is basically useless. For example, my kid needs to get from school to swim practice multiple times a week. School and swim team schedules are set in stone, but there isn’t a public transit option that will allow the two to coexist without incredible daily feats of arbitrage between ride share and a hellish commute involving two buses. This is physically impossible, not merely inconvenient. Let’s not pretend that transit can solve for the needs of every single city resident. If the city has any ambition to be a melting pot for all, it needs to allow everyone to coexist. Some people will choose to drive, others will take transit, but to push one group out in favor of another will leave the city a hollowed out core once again... just like it was before the urban renaissance which began in the 1990s. PS: If your main objection to cars is pollution, we’ll mosey on over to electric cars as soon as charging infrastructure gets off the ground. There’s only a smattering of Teslas in Manhattan, but soon enough there will be enough charging stations to get our gas guzzlers off the road for good.

jamil7 7y ago
> If the city has any ambition to be a melting pot for all, it needs to allow everyone to coexist. Which is an excellent argument for public transport, the point of it is to serve everyone rather than those who can afford to own and run a car and those how have the ability to drive. I can't comment to NYC public transit but there are plenty of cities around the world with reliable and effecient public transport, don't write it off completely because NYC's is subpar. The idea is not to ban cars completely but to make taking alternatives easier and better than taking a car, in doing that we need to divert some of the money and land that cars have historically dominated.
- maxaf 7y ago
  > plenty of cities around the world with reliable and effecient public transport, don't write it off completely because NYC's is subpar. I'm certainly not writing off public transit as a concept. I'd love to be able to step out of my building, step into a magical conveyance that I didn't have to drive myself, and step out next to my destination. It's great that other cities managed to solve this problem, but I don't live in those other cities. Yes, NYC could right itself, and build more subway/tram/BRT lines, but this tends to take forever. I need to get places now. My life won't wait for the city to sort itself out.
TulliusCicero 7y ago
Sounds like it mostly just needs better public transit. More bike lanes would also likely come in handy; bikes and scooters, whether owned or rented, can be very useful as complements to transit to take you that last mile. I have a folding scooter that I take with me on buses and trains here in Munich, and while it's certainly dorky, it's also super useful.
esoterica 7y ago
> If the city has any ambition to be a melting pot for all, it needs to allow everyone to coexist. Some people will choose to drive, others will take transit, but to push one group out in favor of another will leave the city a hollowed out core once again They aren't banning cars in the city, just slightly deprioritizing them in favor of other modes of transport on certain routes. That's what it means to allow different modes of transport to "coexist". The fact that you equate building 200 miles of bike lanes to "pushing drivers out" when tens of thousands of miles of road already exist for cars says something about the entitlement complex that you and your fellow drivers possess.
- maxaf 7y ago
  > The fact that you equate building 200 miles of bike lanes to "pushing drivers out" I haven't actually said that, so please don't put words in my mouth. I myself am an "intermodal" traveler, in that I do use bikes when I travel solo; I simply can't transport my 11 year old daughter by bike with two backpacks. I'm in favor of installing more bike lanes, as these tend to get cyclists out of the way of cars. Mixing slow cyclists with fast cars couldn't have been a worse idea, so shunting the two modes of traffic into separate spaces makes a lot of sense for us drivers. Likewise, when I ride a bike, I find myself relaxing more in a dedicated lane than when I'm forced to weave between cars to get anywhere.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    > I simply can't transport my 11 year old daughter by bike with two backpacks. How Parisians use e-scooters is going to give you a heart attack.
    - maxaf 7y ago
      How people use e-anything in Manhattan already gives me a heart attack. These things are 100% silent, go 25 mph on a flat surface, and are illegal here without a license. In fact, I’d prefer a heart attack to being hit by one.
Qasaur 7y ago
>I don’t know how things are in Paris (never really been), but here in NYC public transit is extremely unreliable and optimized for only one use case: to move 9-5 commuters between their homes in the outer boroughs and the two central business districts of Manhattan. This reminds me of the London Underground. It really seems like no matter where you are in London it is going to take roughly 40-60 minutes to get from A to B.
megaremote 7y ago
> For example, my kid needs to get from school to swim practice multiple times a week. Oh, of course, we wouldn't want to make the streets safer so that you kid might miss out on swim practice, or have to go at some over time, or go to a close center, or a 100 other solutions? > If your main objection to cars is pollution, we’ll mosey on over to electric cars as soon as charging infrastructure gets off the ground. And how will that fix plastic pollution you leave everywhere from the tires on your car?
- maxaf 7y ago
  I’ve flagged your comment for non-constructive tone. Please be civil. Regarding, > And how will that fix plastic pollution you leave everywhere from the tires on your car? You literally just found out about this with the rest of us. Buses and bicycles are afflicted by the same problem, since tire technology is the same everywhere. I’m sure a new material can be found; there’s no need to forever condemn ground transport just because the current implementation of tires is faulty.
CydeWeys 7y ago
I'm in NYC too, and you're overstating how bad the public transit is here. It's still better than anything else in the entire country, and it runs 24/7. And the thing about driving is, the city is simply too dense for everyone to do it. Everyone actually cannot choose to drive; there's simply not enough room to do so. And the same amount of street space can serve way more people as sidewalk, bike lane, and bus lane as it can travel lane for single occupancy vehicles, so we need to prioritize the former and deprioritize the latter. See e.g. the 8th Ave redesign by Penn Station: https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/8th-ave-cb4-jun2019.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/8th-ave-cb4-jun2... In particular, pay attention to page 9, which shows that 85% of the users of the space are pedestrians, yet 70% of it was given to vehicles. If more of those 85% of people "chose" to walk, it'd be complete standstill gridlock for hours long. Hell, it was already close to that bad already with just 15% of users driving.
- jborichevskiy 7y ago
  That breakdown really surprised me and really goes to show how unbalanced the division already is. I'd love to see that breakdown on an interactive map for the entire city but couldn't find anything, though I expect similar ranges (minus the expressways).
steve_gh 7y ago
This is a key point: many transport routes are optimized for 9-5 commuting in and out of cities. And because we can only measure what is there, we don't understand the journeys that don't happen because they are not catered for. How often do you meet people in the town centre because it is the only place you can both get to by public transport?

by maxaf 7y ago

jamil7 7y ago

> If the city has any ambition to be a melting pot for all, it needs to allow everyone to coexist. Which is an excellent argument for public transport, the point of it is to serve everyone rather than those who can afford to own and run a car and those how have the ability to drive. I can't comment to NYC public transit but there are plenty of cities around the world with reliable and effecient public transport, don't write it off completely because NYC's is subpar. The idea is not to ban cars completely but to make taking alternatives easier and better than taking a car, in doing that we need to divert some of the money and land that cars have historically dominated.

maxaf 7y ago
> plenty of cities around the world with reliable and effecient public transport, don't write it off completely because NYC's is subpar. I'm certainly not writing off public transit as a concept. I'd love to be able to step out of my building, step into a magical conveyance that I didn't have to drive myself, and step out next to my destination. It's great that other cities managed to solve this problem, but I don't live in those other cities. Yes, NYC could right itself, and build more subway/tram/BRT lines, but this tends to take forever. I need to get places now. My life won't wait for the city to sort itself out.

TulliusCicero 7y ago

Sounds like it mostly just needs better public transit. More bike lanes would also likely come in handy; bikes and scooters, whether owned or rented, can be very useful as complements to transit to take you that last mile. I have a folding scooter that I take with me on buses and trains here in Munich, and while it's certainly dorky, it's also super useful.

esoterica 7y ago

> If the city has any ambition to be a melting pot for all, it needs to allow everyone to coexist. Some people will choose to drive, others will take transit, but to push one group out in favor of another will leave the city a hollowed out core once again They aren't banning cars in the city, just slightly deprioritizing them in favor of other modes of transport on certain routes. That's what it means to allow different modes of transport to "coexist". The fact that you equate building 200 miles of bike lanes to "pushing drivers out" when tens of thousands of miles of road already exist for cars says something about the entitlement complex that you and your fellow drivers possess.

maxaf 7y ago
> The fact that you equate building 200 miles of bike lanes to "pushing drivers out" I haven't actually said that, so please don't put words in my mouth. I myself am an "intermodal" traveler, in that I do use bikes when I travel solo; I simply can't transport my 11 year old daughter by bike with two backpacks. I'm in favor of installing more bike lanes, as these tend to get cyclists out of the way of cars. Mixing slow cyclists with fast cars couldn't have been a worse idea, so shunting the two modes of traffic into separate spaces makes a lot of sense for us drivers. Likewise, when I ride a bike, I find myself relaxing more in a dedicated lane than when I'm forced to weave between cars to get anywhere.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  > I simply can't transport my 11 year old daughter by bike with two backpacks. How Parisians use e-scooters is going to give you a heart attack.
  - maxaf 7y ago
    How people use e-anything in Manhattan already gives me a heart attack. These things are 100% silent, go 25 mph on a flat surface, and are illegal here without a license. In fact, I’d prefer a heart attack to being hit by one.

Qasaur 7y ago

>I don’t know how things are in Paris (never really been), but here in NYC public transit is extremely unreliable and optimized for only one use case: to move 9-5 commuters between their homes in the outer boroughs and the two central business districts of Manhattan. This reminds me of the London Underground. It really seems like no matter where you are in London it is going to take roughly 40-60 minutes to get from A to B.

megaremote 7y ago

> For example, my kid needs to get from school to swim practice multiple times a week. Oh, of course, we wouldn't want to make the streets safer so that you kid might miss out on swim practice, or have to go at some over time, or go to a close center, or a 100 other solutions? > If your main objection to cars is pollution, we’ll mosey on over to electric cars as soon as charging infrastructure gets off the ground. And how will that fix plastic pollution you leave everywhere from the tires on your car?

maxaf 7y ago
I’ve flagged your comment for non-constructive tone. Please be civil. Regarding, > And how will that fix plastic pollution you leave everywhere from the tires on your car? You literally just found out about this with the rest of us. Buses and bicycles are afflicted by the same problem, since tire technology is the same everywhere. I’m sure a new material can be found; there’s no need to forever condemn ground transport just because the current implementation of tires is faulty.

CydeWeys 7y ago

I'm in NYC too, and you're overstating how bad the public transit is here. It's still better than anything else in the entire country, and it runs 24/7. And the thing about driving is, the city is simply too dense for everyone to do it. Everyone actually cannot choose to drive; there's simply not enough room to do so. And the same amount of street space can serve way more people as sidewalk, bike lane, and bus lane as it can travel lane for single occupancy vehicles, so we need to prioritize the former and deprioritize the latter. See e.g. the 8th Ave redesign by Penn Station: https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/8th-ave-cb4-jun2019.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/8th-ave-cb4-jun2... In particular, pay attention to page 9, which shows that 85% of the users of the space are pedestrians, yet 70% of it was given to vehicles. If more of those 85% of people "chose" to walk, it'd be complete standstill gridlock for hours long. Hell, it was already close to that bad already with just 15% of users driving.

jborichevskiy 7y ago
That breakdown really surprised me and really goes to show how unbalanced the division already is. I'd love to see that breakdown on an interactive map for the entire city but couldn't find anything, though I expect similar ranges (minus the expressways).

steve_gh 7y ago

This is a key point: many transport routes are optimized for 9-5 commuting in and out of cities. And because we can only measure what is there, we don't understand the journeys that don't happen because they are not catered for. How often do you meet people in the town centre because it is the only place you can both get to by public transport?