6 ms·

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in g

by cj 7y ago

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

npo9 7y ago
It depends on what price you pay for Electricity, but paying for the electricity is more than half as cheap as paying for gas. Plus in the US there are so many free chargers, I just charge my car at the office.
- jfk13 7y ago
  I have a suspicion that as electric cars become more common, free chargers will become less so. Providing free chargers (i.e. subsidizing people's driving expenses) may be great PR for businesses, municipalities, etc., as long as there are relatively few people using them, but will not be sustainable as demand increases. And as more people shift from ICE-powered vehicles to electric ones, it seems likely that some of the taxes currently imposed on gasoline may end up applying to electric charging as well, as governments will need to maintain the revenue somehow.
  - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
    One counterbalancing force is renewables and using cars as part of demand response. If solar energy that would otherwise go to waste can be stored in cars, then that reduces the chance the car will need charged at another time and save the utility money. I can imagine plugs that you connect to for free when parked, that only give you as much power as they want but that will also let you buy express power when absolutely required via an app.
  - greglindahl 7y ago
    Plenty of places already charge an equivalent to gas taxes for electric vehicles. In my US state, it's paid with your yearly registration. My city initially gave away free charging to lower air pollution, which wasn't on your list of reasons. 6 years after that start, they've started charging.
    - Robotbeat 7y ago
      Yeah, I pay over double to the state for my electric car in extra EV taxes than I would for state gas taxes. It's actually punitive for EV owners (ostensibly because they're "rich," but I bought mine used and am definitely not rich).
  - maxsilver 7y ago
    > I have a suspicion that as electric cars become more common, free chargers will become less so. (Free charging) will not be sustainable as demand increases. For "superchargers" and other fast charging, I agree. But slower L2 entry-level chargers are so cheap, and electricity so cheap, I don't see free charging going away entirely. Already in Michigan, it's cheaper to just give away free L2 charging to anyone who wants it, than it costs to keep the lot clear of snow in the winter. I suspect slow charging will become similar to Salt / Sugar packets in restaurants. Free basically anywhere that abuse or insane land costs aren't a problem (so free basically everywhere except major cities)
    - Robotbeat 7y ago
      Yup. And equivalent to providing free parking. You have a captive audience, and the price isn't high. Any time I use one of those "free" level 2 chargers, I always buy something where it's possible to do so. You're only talking like one or two dollars worth of electricity (I think people who don't have electric cars don't realize this), and then only if I stay an hour or three. If I could seemlessly pay about 120% of my residential rate to slow charge, I would for convenience sake alone. But no one has really figured this out, yet.
      - maxsilver 7y ago
        > You're only talking like one or two dollars worth of electricity (I think people who don't have electric cars don't realize this), Yeah, I get the impression a lot of people don't really know what electricity costs. Like, they know what their monthly utility bill is, but they probably don't know what that bill was really for, in any measurable units. If someone (for example), charges at a L2 charger @ 3.3kw at a restaurant for an hour, in the state of Michigan, they've used up about 53 cents worth of electricity. That's all the restaurant paid for that electricity. For that 53 cents, their car probably got an extra 10 to 13 miles of range.
        Robotbeat 7y ago
        Right. The cost of the electricity for L2 charging is much less than the fully burdened price of providing free parking (or using the bathroom, etc).
aerodude 7y ago
>If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. The electric bill makes a big difference, because you're really looking at the relative cost of two different forms of energy -- electrical and chemical (fuel). The last time I calculated it, the cost of running an ICE was around 20% more expensive (in my area) than a BEV, but a PHEV was within a percent or so of owning a BEV. I'm curious to know what percentage of EV owners in Norway have a second car. I'd imagine the uptake rate for families that can afford to own more than one vehicle is significantly higher than for those that can't, but I've never seen any stats on the matter. The reality is that for most people, a car is the second largest purchase they'll ever make (if not the largest), so utility has to be high on the list of priorities. I'm not entirely convinced EVs have the utility to overtake ICE vehicles just yet, especially when incentives are removed.
- marvin 7y ago
  Anecdotally, thousands of Norwegians have a Tesla as their only car. The Supercharger network makes long trips completely painless, practically equivalent with an ICE vehicle.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    I've never understood the range complaints beyond 400km. As long as your car can drive 130km/h or faster it is suitable for a road trip. It is almost impossible to repair the damage that CO2 emissions cause. You need an even bigger clean energy source to reverse the damage so it is always more efficient to use that energy to never cause emissions in the first place. EVs are a way to reduce emissions at the cost of waiting for them to charge during road trips. But for some stupid inexplicable reason no one actually wants that trade off.
    - marvin 7y ago
      People will adapt. For most people, it's not an inconvenience to stop for 15-20 minutes every four hours on a road trip. They'd have stopped at those intervals anyway, unless they're running military discipline in their driving routine. Market forces ensure that charging spots will be located in spots where people want to stop and spend money on food, drinks, bathroom breaks. This is what already happens with Tesla's charging network. These habits will change once people organically get to experience the better driving experience that a properly engineered EV gives.
free652 7y ago
Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency). City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c. Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Hybrids are being phased out (as Chevy did with the Volt).
  - yumraj 7y ago
    Prius are doing just fine, so are Honda hybrids, especially plug-ins
    - mediaman 7y ago
      Prius sales have dropped off a cliff. Sales are down six years in a row. Peak sales were 236,000 in 2012, and just 87,000 last year. Part of that is that there's a lot more hybrid competition for the Prius than there used to be.
      - clouddrover 7y ago
        Toyota has sold over 10 million hybrid vehicles in the last 20 years: https://global.toyota/en/detail/14940871 https://global.toyota/en/detail/14940871 But I bet they're crying all the way to the bank.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- btbuilder 7y ago
  Chevy Bolt has very workable range. ~230 EPA
- 7y ago
lettergram 7y ago
Apparently average price per gallon in Norway is $7.06[1]. Today, I paid $2.42 for gas in rural Illinois. So 3x, but I also pay less for electricity in general, so idk if it pays off. I probably spend around $1500/year on gas with my 17-25mpg Jeep. Honestly, Tesla really still can’t compete with the fact I have to haul stuff and drive a few hundred miles. so not an option for me anyway. [1] https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Norway/gasoline_prices/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Norway/gasoline_prices/
- freehunter 7y ago
  It's amazing to me as an American how little need Europeans have for large American-style vehicles. I see Audi station wagons in Switzerland pulling horse trailers (with horses in them), doing 100mph on the freeway. In the US, anyone who pulls a horse trailer once a year would have a dualie diesel HD3500 with exhaust stacks, as their daily driver.
  - markvdb 7y ago
    Warning: somewhat off topic comment to follow. I've noticed reverse anecdotal evidence when I saw cars with ridiculous 6.5l engines in the US and Canada. It's amazing to me with my western European background how energy inefficient the US and Canada are per USD of GDP.[0][1] It must be so much harder as an individual to make energy saving choices in an environment where those are an afterthought. [0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.KD.GD https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.KD.GD [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_GDP_to_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_...
    - nojvek 7y ago
      Both in trash and energy. We consume a ton per capita.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    I'm still mildly ok with that. But what really gets me is the same dualie diesel with a single occupant and an empty bed towing absolutely nothing.
jjav 7y ago
> (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..) If we ignore the cost of gas, it'll also change the math... Needless to say, need to include all costs for a fair comparison. A few years ago when my wife had a Fiat 500e and I was commuting on a 1988 Honda CRX (~40 mpg). The energy cost was higher for the Fiat than the Honda at the time. (Electricity is very expensive in CA). Gas has gone up lately (but then, so has PG&E), I haven't run the numbers in recent years. Might be a wash now. Gas an electricity prices vary widely so do the math for your area, but don't ignore any costs.
- gnicholas 7y ago
  I’m also in CA, and I ran the numbers on my plug-in C-MAX. It is roughly a wash (and the gas mileage is pretty unimpressive, at 35 MPG). It’s convenient to never have to go to the gas station (we average 110 MPG overall), but it’s sad that there’s no savings/incentive to actually be on electric with this vehicle). It could be different for other vehicles that are more efficient (don’t have ICE components to lug around), or for people with their own solar charging.
- davidgould 7y ago
  PGE EV-A rate plan has been $0.13/kWh. Fiat 500e gets about 4 mi/kWh, so about $0.0325 per mile. Assuming gas price over that period averaged $2.50, then at 40mpg gas cost $0.0625 per mile. Which looks like twice as much, not nearly the same.
systemtest 7y ago
Here in the Netherlands electricity is 25 cents per kWh and up to 59 cents per kWh for a fast charger next to the highway, if you don't have a subscription with them. Some chargers also have a starting cost and/or parking fees included. The 59 cents is close to what a fuel efficient diesel costs. In the future you will only get 8 cents per kWh for what your solar panels generate and put back into the grid. At that point charging your car will be a very good proposition, because you are practically filling it with 8 cents per kWh.

by cj 7y ago

npo9 7y ago

It depends on what price you pay for Electricity, but paying for the electricity is more than half as cheap as paying for gas. Plus in the US there are so many free chargers, I just charge my car at the office.

jfk13 7y ago
I have a suspicion that as electric cars become more common, free chargers will become less so. Providing free chargers (i.e. subsidizing people's driving expenses) may be great PR for businesses, municipalities, etc., as long as there are relatively few people using them, but will not be sustainable as demand increases. And as more people shift from ICE-powered vehicles to electric ones, it seems likely that some of the taxes currently imposed on gasoline may end up applying to electric charging as well, as governments will need to maintain the revenue somehow.
- ZeroGravitas 7y ago
  One counterbalancing force is renewables and using cars as part of demand response. If solar energy that would otherwise go to waste can be stored in cars, then that reduces the chance the car will need charged at another time and save the utility money. I can imagine plugs that you connect to for free when parked, that only give you as much power as they want but that will also let you buy express power when absolutely required via an app.
- greglindahl 7y ago
  Plenty of places already charge an equivalent to gas taxes for electric vehicles. In my US state, it's paid with your yearly registration. My city initially gave away free charging to lower air pollution, which wasn't on your list of reasons. 6 years after that start, they've started charging.
  - Robotbeat 7y ago
    Yeah, I pay over double to the state for my electric car in extra EV taxes than I would for state gas taxes. It's actually punitive for EV owners (ostensibly because they're "rich," but I bought mine used and am definitely not rich).
- maxsilver 7y ago
  > I have a suspicion that as electric cars become more common, free chargers will become less so. (Free charging) will not be sustainable as demand increases. For "superchargers" and other fast charging, I agree. But slower L2 entry-level chargers are so cheap, and electricity so cheap, I don't see free charging going away entirely. Already in Michigan, it's cheaper to just give away free L2 charging to anyone who wants it, than it costs to keep the lot clear of snow in the winter. I suspect slow charging will become similar to Salt / Sugar packets in restaurants. Free basically anywhere that abuse or insane land costs aren't a problem (so free basically everywhere except major cities)
  - Robotbeat 7y ago
    Yup. And equivalent to providing free parking. You have a captive audience, and the price isn't high. Any time I use one of those "free" level 2 chargers, I always buy something where it's possible to do so. You're only talking like one or two dollars worth of electricity (I think people who don't have electric cars don't realize this), and then only if I stay an hour or three. If I could seemlessly pay about 120% of my residential rate to slow charge, I would for convenience sake alone. But no one has really figured this out, yet.
    - maxsilver 7y ago
      > You're only talking like one or two dollars worth of electricity (I think people who don't have electric cars don't realize this), Yeah, I get the impression a lot of people don't really know what electricity costs. Like, they know what their monthly utility bill is, but they probably don't know what that bill was really for, in any measurable units. If someone (for example), charges at a L2 charger @ 3.3kw at a restaurant for an hour, in the state of Michigan, they've used up about 53 cents worth of electricity. That's all the restaurant paid for that electricity. For that 53 cents, their car probably got an extra 10 to 13 miles of range.
      - Robotbeat 7y ago
        Right. The cost of the electricity for L2 charging is much less than the fully burdened price of providing free parking (or using the bathroom, etc).

aerodude 7y ago

>If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. The electric bill makes a big difference, because you're really looking at the relative cost of two different forms of energy -- electrical and chemical (fuel). The last time I calculated it, the cost of running an ICE was around 20% more expensive (in my area) than a BEV, but a PHEV was within a percent or so of owning a BEV. I'm curious to know what percentage of EV owners in Norway have a second car. I'd imagine the uptake rate for families that can afford to own more than one vehicle is significantly higher than for those that can't, but I've never seen any stats on the matter. The reality is that for most people, a car is the second largest purchase they'll ever make (if not the largest), so utility has to be high on the list of priorities. I'm not entirely convinced EVs have the utility to overtake ICE vehicles just yet, especially when incentives are removed.

marvin 7y ago
Anecdotally, thousands of Norwegians have a Tesla as their only car. The Supercharger network makes long trips completely painless, practically equivalent with an ICE vehicle.
- imtringued 7y ago
  I've never understood the range complaints beyond 400km. As long as your car can drive 130km/h or faster it is suitable for a road trip. It is almost impossible to repair the damage that CO2 emissions cause. You need an even bigger clean energy source to reverse the damage so it is always more efficient to use that energy to never cause emissions in the first place. EVs are a way to reduce emissions at the cost of waiting for them to charge during road trips. But for some stupid inexplicable reason no one actually wants that trade off.
  - marvin 7y ago
    People will adapt. For most people, it's not an inconvenience to stop for 15-20 minutes every four hours on a road trip. They'd have stopped at those intervals anyway, unless they're running military discipline in their driving routine. Market forces ensure that charging spots will be located in spots where people want to stop and spend money on food, drinks, bathroom breaks. This is what already happens with Tesla's charging network. These habits will change once people organically get to experience the better driving experience that a properly engineered EV gives.

free652 7y ago

Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency). City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c. Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Hybrids are being phased out (as Chevy did with the Volt).
- yumraj 7y ago
  Prius are doing just fine, so are Honda hybrids, especially plug-ins
  - mediaman 7y ago
    Prius sales have dropped off a cliff. Sales are down six years in a row. Peak sales were 236,000 in 2012, and just 87,000 last year. Part of that is that there's a lot more hybrid competition for the Prius than there used to be.
    - clouddrover 7y ago
      Toyota has sold over 10 million hybrid vehicles in the last 20 years: https://global.toyota/en/detail/14940871 https://global.toyota/en/detail/14940871 But I bet they're crying all the way to the bank.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
btbuilder 7y ago
Chevy Bolt has very workable range. ~230 EPA
7y ago

lettergram 7y ago

Apparently average price per gallon in Norway is $7.06[1]. Today, I paid $2.42 for gas in rural Illinois. So 3x, but I also pay less for electricity in general, so idk if it pays off. I probably spend around $1500/year on gas with my 17-25mpg Jeep. Honestly, Tesla really still can’t compete with the fact I have to haul stuff and drive a few hundred miles. so not an option for me anyway. [1] https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Norway/gasoline_prices/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Norway/gasoline_prices/

freehunter 7y ago
It's amazing to me as an American how little need Europeans have for large American-style vehicles. I see Audi station wagons in Switzerland pulling horse trailers (with horses in them), doing 100mph on the freeway. In the US, anyone who pulls a horse trailer once a year would have a dualie diesel HD3500 with exhaust stacks, as their daily driver.
- markvdb 7y ago
  Warning: somewhat off topic comment to follow. I've noticed reverse anecdotal evidence when I saw cars with ridiculous 6.5l engines in the US and Canada. It's amazing to me with my western European background how energy inefficient the US and Canada are per USD of GDP.[0][1] It must be so much harder as an individual to make energy saving choices in an environment where those are an afterthought. [0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.KD.GD https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.KD.GD [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_GDP_to_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_...
  - nojvek 7y ago
    Both in trash and energy. We consume a ton per capita.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  I'm still mildly ok with that. But what really gets me is the same dualie diesel with a single occupant and an empty bed towing absolutely nothing.

jjav 7y ago

> (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..) If we ignore the cost of gas, it'll also change the math... Needless to say, need to include all costs for a fair comparison. A few years ago when my wife had a Fiat 500e and I was commuting on a 1988 Honda CRX (~40 mpg). The energy cost was higher for the Fiat than the Honda at the time. (Electricity is very expensive in CA). Gas has gone up lately (but then, so has PG&E), I haven't run the numbers in recent years. Might be a wash now. Gas an electricity prices vary widely so do the math for your area, but don't ignore any costs.

gnicholas 7y ago
I’m also in CA, and I ran the numbers on my plug-in C-MAX. It is roughly a wash (and the gas mileage is pretty unimpressive, at 35 MPG). It’s convenient to never have to go to the gas station (we average 110 MPG overall), but it’s sad that there’s no savings/incentive to actually be on electric with this vehicle). It could be different for other vehicles that are more efficient (don’t have ICE components to lug around), or for people with their own solar charging.
davidgould 7y ago
PGE EV-A rate plan has been $0.13/kWh. Fiat 500e gets about 4 mi/kWh, so about $0.0325 per mile. Assuming gas price over that period averaged $2.50, then at 40mpg gas cost $0.0625 per mile. Which looks like twice as much, not nearly the same.

systemtest 7y ago

Here in the Netherlands electricity is 25 cents per kWh and up to 59 cents per kWh for a fast charger next to the highway, if you don't have a subscription with them. Some chargers also have a starting cost and/or parking fees included. The 59 cents is close to what a fuel efficient diesel costs. In the future you will only get 8 cents per kWh for what your solar panels generate and put back into the grid. At that point charging your car will be a very good proposition, because you are practically filling it with 8 cents per kWh.