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I have observed a case here in Poland - the parents refused a vitamin K shot to their baby because they found something in the leaflet. Later it turned out that

by zby 7y ago

I have observed a case here in Poland - the parents refused a vitamin K shot to their baby because they found something in the leaflet. Later it turned out that this particular vitamin K was not approved in Poland for normal use, only for urgent cases - but still was used routinely on newborns by the hospitals because there was no other. Of course the parents were called crazy anti-vaxxers - but who is there to read the leaflets and check the doctors if not the parents? Parents can be ignorant - but they are more reliable to have their children interest as their main objective then any institution. In communism times, and probably generally in the past, the institutions like hospitals were much more authoritarian, and in my family there is a personal story about how horrific it sometimes was. Of course doctors don't like being checked. Now vaxination is a kind of shibboleth - something you need to agree with, and agree quickly and automatically, to be admitted to the 'enlightened' society. I think the hysteria around anti-vaxxers is the worst thing.

orwin 7y ago
Well antivaxxer in France caused the death of at least one child in 2016 (who could not get vaccinated because of a weak immune system). They might be other cases. Does the responsibility of murder dilute when enough people is involved? At this school were this happened, the only antivaxxers who showed guilt were the ones whose children will have sequela. I know its not possible, but let those antivax live in the same communities and develop their own immunity w/o vaccines. Or at least, when a kid can't get vaccinated, let his parent know if the school is safe.
DrAwdeOccarim 7y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "particular vitamin K was not approved in Poland for normal use". Was it the dosage? Because Vitamin K is Vitamin K, so I'm not sure I follow why this would be bad. In the US, the FDA allows doctors to prescribe any approved drug for any need. So called "off label" use of drugs is common. The only issue is sometimes insurance will not cover the costs. As for the mistrust of medical professionals, I cannot fathom what it was like to live in a society that blindly followed the State without data to support the position--that must be horrible. Fortunately in the developed, modern world, the data is free for everyone to look at and decide for themselves. Here is a nice review with references showing just how amazing vaccines are: https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work-with-sources-61c199429c8c https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccin... I think part of the reason 'enlightened' society requires everyone to be vaccinated is herd immunity. Not everyone can take a vaccine and be protected, so it's up to the majority of society to protect them. Granted, this is another discussion of who's responsible for taking care of whom, but in modern developed societies we have agreed as a majority to help the less fortunate. An example here are small children, people undergoing chemotherapy, the elderly, and people with compromised immune systems. These are the people that vaccine herd protection protects. I'm sorry you feel the hysteria around anti-vaxxers to be the worst thing. I can imagine how difficult it must be to feel better informed than the masses and everyone to think you're the fool. Numerous people throughout history have been murdered for speaking truth to the masses because what they were saying was not convenient.
- zby 7y ago
  Citing wikipedia: "Vitamin K is a group of structurally similar, fat-soluble vitamins found in foods and in dietary supplements", but of course drugs always contains also other substances - so different label drugs do differ and can have different side effects. Herd immunity is indeed the part that makes the whole thing political and difficult, because it is a common good. But in a healthy debate there should be a place for people sceptical about something - they should not be automatically demonized. I don't quite understand what you write about my feelings - because I don't identify as antivaxxer, I vaccinated my children and I trust the scientific data in general. I just feel better thinking that there are people who read the leaflets and double check the doctors and I don't think they should be vilified even if in the most part these people are not reasonable in their distrust. I also believe that it is better if we don't mandate trust in vaccination - but let people make their minds individually, even if we sometimes lose herd immunity, because the alternative authoritarian system leads to worse things.

by zby 7y ago

orwin 7y ago

Well antivaxxer in France caused the death of at least one child in 2016 (who could not get vaccinated because of a weak immune system). They might be other cases. Does the responsibility of murder dilute when enough people is involved? At this school were this happened, the only antivaxxers who showed guilt were the ones whose children will have sequela. I know its not possible, but let those antivax live in the same communities and develop their own immunity w/o vaccines. Or at least, when a kid can't get vaccinated, let his parent know if the school is safe.

DrAwdeOccarim 7y ago

I'm not sure what you mean by "particular vitamin K was not approved in Poland for normal use". Was it the dosage? Because Vitamin K is Vitamin K, so I'm not sure I follow why this would be bad. In the US, the FDA allows doctors to prescribe any approved drug for any need. So called "off label" use of drugs is common. The only issue is sometimes insurance will not cover the costs. As for the mistrust of medical professionals, I cannot fathom what it was like to live in a society that blindly followed the State without data to support the position--that must be horrible. Fortunately in the developed, modern world, the data is free for everyone to look at and decide for themselves. Here is a nice review with references showing just how amazing vaccines are: https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work-with-sources-61c199429c8c https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccin... I think part of the reason 'enlightened' society requires everyone to be vaccinated is herd immunity. Not everyone can take a vaccine and be protected, so it's up to the majority of society to protect them. Granted, this is another discussion of who's responsible for taking care of whom, but in modern developed societies we have agreed as a majority to help the less fortunate. An example here are small children, people undergoing chemotherapy, the elderly, and people with compromised immune systems. These are the people that vaccine herd protection protects. I'm sorry you feel the hysteria around anti-vaxxers to be the worst thing. I can imagine how difficult it must be to feel better informed than the masses and everyone to think you're the fool. Numerous people throughout history have been murdered for speaking truth to the masses because what they were saying was not convenient.

zby 7y ago
Citing wikipedia: "Vitamin K is a group of structurally similar, fat-soluble vitamins found in foods and in dietary supplements", but of course drugs always contains also other substances - so different label drugs do differ and can have different side effects. Herd immunity is indeed the part that makes the whole thing political and difficult, because it is a common good. But in a healthy debate there should be a place for people sceptical about something - they should not be automatically demonized. I don't quite understand what you write about my feelings - because I don't identify as antivaxxer, I vaccinated my children and I trust the scientific data in general. I just feel better thinking that there are people who read the leaflets and double check the doctors and I don't think they should be vilified even if in the most part these people are not reasonable in their distrust. I also believe that it is better if we don't mandate trust in vaccination - but let people make their minds individually, even if we sometimes lose herd immunity, because the alternative authoritarian system leads to worse things.