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> Not to mention their free tier doesn’t cover the complex DDOS attacks that you really should be concerned about This wasn't true in 2016 and isn't true in 20

by buro9 7y ago

> Not to mention their free tier doesn’t cover the complex DDOS attacks that you really should be concerned about This wasn't true in 2016 and isn't true in 2019 either. Whilst the system was named and blogged about in Sep 2017 https://blog.cloudflare.com/meet-gatebot-a-bot-that-allows-us-to-sleep/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/meet-gatebot-a-bot-that-allows-u... the internal repo has the first working code drop in Feb 2015. The (D)DoS protection systems and team, which I am the Engineering Manager for, treat all attacks equally according to the nature of the attack rather than the target of the attack. To address other parts of the blog though, there is nothing in our system that defaults to "do X for IP/Country y"... what there is, is learned state about traffic, clients, and the many layers of customer expressed configuration.

Aeolun 7y ago
Yeah, that was my first thought when reading this. It’s not that Cloudflare is ruining the internet for you. It’s the loads of illegitimate traffic and attacks that just so happen to originate in your country.
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  I'm sure that's very comforting to him as a user, maybe he should just immigrate to a different country if he wants to use the internet normally.
  - rlt 7y ago
    Complain to your ISP, switch ISPs, complain to your government, etc.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    I’m fairly certain that my message wasn’t to comfort anybody. It sucks, but it’s a fact of life. You could argue that this is a great improvement over the status quo, which just blocked entire countries out of hand.
- throwaway_bad 7y ago
  This parallels the conversation going on in the ML world right now. "They just so happen to look like gorillas!" This is not okay. I know it's just a pile of linear algebra and there's no conspiracy to screw a particular country. But once it's brought up that your system is causing harm by increasing inequality in the world, you can't just say "But that's what the algo is spitting out!". At least try to fix it.
  - privateSFacct 7y ago
    If your country is causing harm to the rest of the world by not discouraging (or even encouraging) unethical behavior online, maybe the problem isn't the algo but your system? At least try to fix it.
    - 616c 7y ago
      Yeah that's cool. Let's classify your personal behavior by your host or birth country and see how you like it. I see a throwaway account but let us know, what country are you from? Seeing how abusive US behavior is on the internet and in other domains, for me as an American, I'd be afraid to practice what you preach.
      - marcinzm 7y ago
        >Yeah that's cool. Let's classify your personal behavior by your host or birth country and see how you like it. It's not classifying personal behavior, it's putting an additional barrier based on the country you're from. This is done in pretty much every other form of international interaction as well (visas, extradition, commerce, etc.).
        pdimitar 7y ago
        Plenty of things in history have been done en masse and now we're left wondering how could the people back then even accept those barriers. Restating the current status quo isn't changing anything.
    - 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Craighead 7y ago
You are ruining the internet by assisting white supremacists, and terrorists in the name of listening to no governments while functioning solely because of the protection provided by said governments.
chrisan 7y ago
> To address other parts of the blog though, there is nothing in our system that defaults to "do X for IP/Country y"... what there is, is learned state about traffic, clients, and the many layers of customer expressed configuration. If it is not IP/country, then what would cause this user to be prompted for captcha repeatedly?
- TheCuckedKing 7y ago
  Shared ip address most likely. With which someone else is triggering the captcha. Or even a range of ips which are or have been allocated to someone else. I imagine the solution should come about as follows. Customers complain about captchas and seek alternative isps. Someone else provides better connections without tainted ip addresses (without sketchy customers) OR, the current isp decides to crack down on customers who are being labeled as abusive. Problem solved. Someone is likely providing cheap internet to sketchy people, who taint the experience for other users. It is on them to crack down and stop selling to sketchy users. Ban their payment methods/identities, so cloudflare doesn't have to ban ips.
pdimitar 7y ago
What learned state says it's okay to prompt for captchas every other click if you've never been a bad internet citizen, exactly? Help me here. You aren't being specific. You only restated that you leave a lot of visitors at the mercy of statistical algorithms.

by buro9 7y ago

Aeolun 7y ago

Yeah, that was my first thought when reading this. It’s not that Cloudflare is ruining the internet for you. It’s the loads of illegitimate traffic and attacks that just so happen to originate in your country.

throwaway2048 7y ago
I'm sure that's very comforting to him as a user, maybe he should just immigrate to a different country if he wants to use the internet normally.
- rlt 7y ago
  Complain to your ISP, switch ISPs, complain to your government, etc.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  I’m fairly certain that my message wasn’t to comfort anybody. It sucks, but it’s a fact of life. You could argue that this is a great improvement over the status quo, which just blocked entire countries out of hand.
throwaway_bad 7y ago
This parallels the conversation going on in the ML world right now. "They just so happen to look like gorillas!" This is not okay. I know it's just a pile of linear algebra and there's no conspiracy to screw a particular country. But once it's brought up that your system is causing harm by increasing inequality in the world, you can't just say "But that's what the algo is spitting out!". At least try to fix it.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  If your country is causing harm to the rest of the world by not discouraging (or even encouraging) unethical behavior online, maybe the problem isn't the algo but your system? At least try to fix it.
  - 616c 7y ago
    Yeah that's cool. Let's classify your personal behavior by your host or birth country and see how you like it. I see a throwaway account but let us know, what country are you from? Seeing how abusive US behavior is on the internet and in other domains, for me as an American, I'd be afraid to practice what you preach.
    - marcinzm 7y ago
      >Yeah that's cool. Let's classify your personal behavior by your host or birth country and see how you like it. It's not classifying personal behavior, it's putting an additional barrier based on the country you're from. This is done in pretty much every other form of international interaction as well (visas, extradition, commerce, etc.).
      - pdimitar 7y ago
        Plenty of things in history have been done en masse and now we're left wondering how could the people back then even accept those barriers. Restating the current status quo isn't changing anything.
  - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Craighead 7y ago

You are ruining the internet by assisting white supremacists, and terrorists in the name of listening to no governments while functioning solely because of the protection provided by said governments.

chrisan 7y ago

> To address other parts of the blog though, there is nothing in our system that defaults to "do X for IP/Country y"... what there is, is learned state about traffic, clients, and the many layers of customer expressed configuration. If it is not IP/country, then what would cause this user to be prompted for captcha repeatedly?

TheCuckedKing 7y ago
Shared ip address most likely. With which someone else is triggering the captcha. Or even a range of ips which are or have been allocated to someone else. I imagine the solution should come about as follows. Customers complain about captchas and seek alternative isps. Someone else provides better connections without tainted ip addresses (without sketchy customers) OR, the current isp decides to crack down on customers who are being labeled as abusive. Problem solved. Someone is likely providing cheap internet to sketchy people, who taint the experience for other users. It is on them to crack down and stop selling to sketchy users. Ban their payment methods/identities, so cloudflare doesn't have to ban ips.

pdimitar 7y ago

What learned state says it's okay to prompt for captchas every other click if you've never been a bad internet citizen, exactly? Help me here. You aren't being specific. You only restated that you leave a lot of visitors at the mercy of statistical algorithms.