8 ms·

The Wave that changed the world (2017)

203 points by carrozo 7y ago

ptbello 7y ago
This must have been a strong ispiration for the aptly named "The Wave" (2008), although I couldn't find any reference either side. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1063669/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1063669/
- Stratoscope 7y ago
  Indeed: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0429168/bio https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0429168/bio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment)
- arnarbi 7y ago
  The book is so well known in many countries as it's part of the standard curriculum (I had to read it when I was 16), so I think the German film makers felt it needed no particular references to the story. It's right next to Animal Farm, Brave New World, and 1984. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(2008_film)#Differences_from_the_1981_film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(2008_film)#Differenc...
  - throwaway40324 7y ago
    Perhaps, Lord of The Flies is somewhere on that shelf, as well. Gosh I should go back and read all those again!
- Torwald 7y ago
  I thought everybody knew that the book the movie was based on was based on the story in the OP. We had to read the book in school (in Europe). I feel old now.
AceJohnny2 7y ago
It's really strange to me that this story seems to be so unknown in the US. It's such an important and powerful lesson. In contrast, I was educated in a European system, and in history class there was strong emphasis on the lessons of being subjected to or being on the brink of a fascist system. There are memorials to the Shoah and the Resistance in every town. The US enjoyed the luxury of saying "it didn't happen here", but the education system at large really seems to have willfully ignored the lessons Europe has learned. Hell, the movie about this was german!
- arnarbi 7y ago
  There was an earlier, but seemingly less popular American TV movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(1981_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(1981_film)
  - neuronexmachina 7y ago
    I remember watching that in my public school in Florida in the early 90s.
- jadell 7y ago
  I went to public school in the US. We read the book _The Wave_ in 9th grade (possibly 8th, I don't really remember. It was early high school.) I don't remember ever discussing that it was based on a true event. I didn't learn that until much later. I feel like it would have had a much bugger impact if that fact had been included in the lesson.
- inamberclad 7y ago
  No kidding. I went to high school in the next town over and have never heard about this.
- garmaine 7y ago
  There is no “US educational system.” School policy is set at the state and local level. I remember being taught this material and the book being assigned reading.
shiblukhan 7y ago
Although many may attempt to associate Trump with Hitler, the true bullies of today are Islamic terrorists and leftist socialists. Whenever these two groups are challenged for their violent tactics, they accuse opposition of being racist or bigots. With the defeat of Clinton, the protests did not include any form of debate, but simply involved violence and intimidation in the attempt to force conformity to the leftist view. It is true that it is happening today. Just look at the public schools and universities to see how leftists have controlled the lessons being taught and influenced students to have disdain for their own country while terrorists are glorified as heroes. And millions of patents are willing to spend billions of dollars on such nonsense without question. Parents should demand a refund.
shiblukhan 7y ago
Have you seen the latest "NEWSWEEK" they have gone all out with this Godwin's Law hysteria. They put Hitler on the front cover, a flag of the fringe American Nazi Party on the back, and the entire issue is devoted to Trump-Hitler comparisons. You are gravely insulting all the Americans around you who voted for him. As grandson of European Jews who were gassed, I find these comparisons incredibly disturbing. The sensationalist media ought to be ashamed of themselves. www.paloaltoonline.com has lost all credibility. EDITORS: Please drop your severely biased aenda and cover the news NEUTRALLY
spicyramen 7y ago
Fascism is a movement on the left, normally is associated with right movement as is easier to associate fascism with racism versus other left excesses. Giovanni Gentile it's main philosopher has been deleted from history. Today's world Fascism is more associated with the violent left than right itself (Trans kids, pronoun movement, ANTIFA, etc.)
- dang 7y ago
  Would you please stop taking HN threads into ideological flamewar? It's off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 7y ago
Here's the teacher's riveting account, from 1972: http://libcom.org/history/the-third-wave-1967-account-ron-jones http://libcom.org/history/the-third-wave-1967-account-ron-jo... (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2480260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2480260 from 2011, but only one comment there). Here's the article from the school paper at the time, which includes details missing from the other articles, such as that the senior class staged a coup and kidnapped the teacher: https://imgur.com/t/nazism/hXgrmKX https://imgur.com/t/nazism/hXgrmKX. The timeline disagrees with the other articles too. Can anybody find a previous discussion of this on HN? "Wave" and "third wave" are such overloaded terms.
- nkurz 7y ago
  There are a few links to the associated Wikipedia article, but only one with a comment: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&query=%22third%20wave%22%20wikipedia https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&query=%22third%20wave%... The 1981 movie about the incident seems to be on Youtube, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICng-KRxXJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICng-KRxXJ8
- networkimprov 7y ago
  This is an instructive lesson for young people, but it's important to understand the context of Europe and Germany in the 1920s and 30s... Embittered in the wake of the Great War, depleted by it and the reparations imposed by the Allies, battered by a global depression, facing Soviet expansionism, and struggling with a dysfunctional political culture. It wasn't simply ideology that sold fascism in the real world.
  - sunstone 7y ago
    Clearly the US had learned this lesson when Japan surrendered.
- goto11 7y ago
  I suspect the story have been adjusted and embellished afterwards in order to clearer teach the lesson it was supposed to. The students staging a coup and kidnapping the teacher sounds like a fun bit of roleplay which perhaps got out of hand, but doesn't really support the lesson that we all are easy victims of fascism. Some other comments suggest the episode was "hushed down" because they never heard about it. It might also be that it wasn't as big as dramatic an episode in the first place, as it was later presented.
friendlybus 7y ago
What is the bright side to community, order and the rest of it? Every ww2 and excessively tribal story ends badly and we need to be reminded of that. But we always have moments in history when tribalism comes back and we will in the future. How can we use this to our advantage? Last time it came up we made some good advances in the understanding of human perception & consciousness. Can we use this power for good?
- j9461701 7y ago
  The good side of community, order and obedience to authority are the entire civilized world and all the goodies within it. Hospitals, electricity, cozy homes that stay cold in the summer and hot in the winter. Without the human tendency to group up and follow leaders nothing works and little gets done. Sometimes this habit goes wrong on us, and results in lynch mobs or Nazism. But overall it's still one of our greatest strengths as a species, and we need to be aware of its failure modes rather than rejecting the whole idea outright. Cooperation is one of the animal world's superpowers.
  - knolax 7y ago
    Chimpanzees also have community, order, and obedience. Where are their hospitals?
  - paxys 7y ago
    Everything you mention can be born out of individualism, not just by blind conformity and having any fixed social structure.
    - friendlybus 7y ago
      Individualism is a spirit that infects us all. It is invested in heavily by the rich and is heralded from the most credible academics and political leaders as the correct way to be or live. Where is the line between the content of the idea individualism and the political reinforcement of the idea in the populace? It is apart of the fixed social structure already. Is being governed by a shared idea, not blind conformity in itself?
throwaway40324 7y ago
Even though the entirety of the stories are completely different, I couldn't help but start to picture scenes from The Dead Poet Society while reading the article. How does it go? Oh captain, my captain? Edit: PS: I did watch DPS in school in the US, but just heard of the third wave here today.
cmroanirgo 7y ago
Wow. In one short week this all happened and was defused by the teacher: > There is no such thing as a national youth movement called the Third Wave. You have been used. Manipulated. Shoved by your own desires into the place you now find yourself. You are no better or worse than the German Nazis we have been studying And > Silence is what happens when you feel shame What I find particularly interesting is that the basic elements of what happened can be seen in all walks of life, even in tech. Eg. The 'gamification' that many products use, is very much like the 'follow our rules and you'll be rewarded', and the 'belief' in a central tenant becomes a central rule of authority. The marketing slogans used to gain groundswell are the same: an agenda to deepen one's commitment to the cause. Even HN, with it's karma, @dang as our bodyguard, with YC as the central body. All down and up votes on this comment will prove the point that the secret police are here too, gauging my suitability to the cause. So, a fantastic article that shows we all have natural tendencies to be sheep, but are all also wanting to be elitist sheep.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > All down and up votes on this comment will prove the point that the secret police are here too, gauging my suitability to the cause. Whats so easy to see in others is almost impossible to see in oneself.
- sitkack 7y ago
  I see this all the time when folks at work are trying to "fit in" and project the right signals up-ladder. They entertain ideas that if put forward by a peer would be ruthlessly ridiculed. They make inane jokes that we all uncomfortably laugh at, while they focus on non-problems and ignore unknown-knowns. I feel shame for putting up with those clumsy charades.
  - extempore 7y ago
    I have a feeling you mean that they ignore known unknowns. Everyone ignores unknown knowns, because they are unknown.
- labster 7y ago
aazaa 7y ago
> "What was interesting during the Wave was that the very bright kids were excluded and martialed out of the classroom by guards early on. That left the middle group, who then felt empowered. That's probably what's happening today in the United States. People who felt left out suddenly are in control, and it feels good. The topic of resistance to mass totalitarian movements is more relevant now than ever before. The article, like history, unfortunately paints a very bleak picture for the prospects. In the classroom study, as in historical episodes, the deck was stacked against resisters from the start. They got the same reward for going along as successfully revolting: > ... "He [the teacher] told us, 'If you're an active participant, I'll give you an A; if you just go along with it, I'll give you a C; if you try a revolution, I'll give you an F, but if your revolution succeeds, I'll give you an A.' In other words, resistance requires values that transcend immediate rewards and punishments. The path of greatest reward/effort lies in going along to get along, and most people will take it without thinking too much. Beyond that, successful revolutionaries need a great deal of skill to avoid detection. The unskilled "bright" students were caught and banished early, and I don't doubt that those doing the banishing felt very good about that. Only two students mounted a noteworthy resistance effort: > Out of all the students, only two actively resisted -- sophomores Alyssa Hess and Sherry Tousley. On the final day, Hess stood up in class and urged her classmates not to attend the rally. Tousley resisted from the start. Tousley was one of Jones' top students who had been banished from class early on for questioning the movement's purpose. She anonymously launched an anti-Wave resistance group, "The Breakers." In the documentary "Lesson Plan," she said her father drove her to Cubberley before school hours so she could hang anti-Wave posters up high in the halls so students couldn't tear them down. Until the making of the documentary 40 years later, not a single person -- except her father -- knew Tousley was the sole person behind the resistance group. Hess's stand at the end of class, although brave, had little effect. Worse, it couldn't be repeated. This is unfortunately the fate of most resisters because it takes a lot of skill to mess with the steamroller and survive. Tousley's effort was much more interesting in that she was able to work on a recurring basis in a way that avoided detection.
- humanrebar 7y ago
  > The topic of resistance to mass totalitarian movements is more relevant now than ever before. Especially since we seem to have bimodal totalitarian impulses. Two opposing cultures, both of whom seem content primarily existing to reject the other. I hope both cultures learn how to live with each other, tolerating dissent, before ignoring civil norms (i.e. escalating bigotry, violence) starts becoming attractive.
skybrian 7y ago
The suprising part is that they apparently didn't spend any class time talking it over after it happened?
empath75 7y ago
It’s a great story but it’s almost certainly too good to be true. There were a whole lot of things along this vein showing how good people can be manipulated to put innocent people into gas chambers as part of the restoration of Germany as part of the ‘free world’ The truth is that people aren’t good, and a lot of them would love to put people in gas chambers and all it takes is the people in power allowing them to do it. No manipulation required. The Nazis were not evil geniuses that figured out how to twist the good intentions of people into evil ends. They were brutal, moronic sociopaths that allowed the natural hateful tendencies of people to flourish. It’s a dangerous myth to believe that democracy and freedom is the natural state of man and that chaos and destruction is the aberration. It’s precisely the opposite. Democracy and peace and freedom are states that one has to continuously work for and make sacrifices to sustain. The us is learning that the hard way right now. It doesn’t take a genius to destroy democracy. It just takes one hateful idiot in charge who allows and encourages hate and violence to flourish.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > The truth is that people aren’t good, and a lot of them would love to put people in gas chambers and all it takes is the people in power allowing them to do it. Is this a fact, or a theory? If it's a fact, are you able to convince a very open minded person like me of it?
  - Aeolos 7y ago
    There are several decades of sociological research on similar topic.s If you are interested, the following book is a good introduction with extensive references: https://www.theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-book/ https://www.theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-bo... One of the most startling relevations (to me) was that you don't need to be a "bad" person in order to do things one could consider immoral. All it takes is an immoral leader who is able to exploit certain personality traits and convictions that can be found in many of us. Even though this text was written in 2005, it provides an explanatory framework for things that are more relevant today than ever. It's worth a read.
  - truth_be_told 7y ago
lubujackson 7y ago
My Sociology teacher in high school did a much tamer version of this experiment when we were reading Lord of the Flies. As we read it chapter by chapter, he kept asking, "Does anyone believe in the Beast?" One kid finally said yes and he got all giddy, gave the kid a special seat by the front of the class and gave him a stuffed animal "beast" to hold. As we read further and further he kept asking classmates? "Do you believe in the Beast?" He would give small things to the growing group, leave class 5 minutes early, some candy maybe, little things. But one by one the whole class joined the group, just as the true meaning of the Beast became apparent. Such an interesting lesson!
- wallace_f 7y ago
  Personally, I've experienced a mix of extremes in both privilege and oppression. While some people are really good, and some really evil, most of humanity has thos duality. They love you when you're successful, or for your popularity. But it's amazing how easily they can really turn their backs on you, even for no good reason. There is an idea that: 'Nazis were regular people.' By some accounts the most common method of those millions who were murdered in the Killing Fields was by pick axe, to save bullets and money. The immediate reaction of that for me was the callousness, torture. But if you stop to think about it, how personal of a method is that? This was not just mass genocide, and it was not industrialized. It was carried out by masses of people with their own hands in a personalized way. After my traumatic experiences with psychopathic cheating, abuse as an adult, now every time I hear or read of psychopathy happening today -- what is essentially just one group of people abusing, exploiting power over others for personal gain at the expense of others' liberties -- I think "Oh my God, we all need to wake up and do something." It feels like every day there is some new form of tyranny I learn about which is happening today, which is considered so ordinary that it is allowed to persist. Sometimes they are obvious evils, such as The Insulin Racket, Abu Ghraib or the Collateral Murder leaks, for example. But other times I see some of these group tyrannies have propaganda machine behind them which are not different from other forms of facism or tyrannical power structures, such as I think is the case with Big Pharma or Wall Street. I think there is a crazy duality with humanity where we have abuse, tyranny always so close, and tolerated. We all know what it is -- that it is evil. We all hate it, and are ashamed of it. We always criticize it when it is at a distance, but then nobody is doing anything about it just as past generations did as well.
known 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire is relevant
countryqt30 7y ago
There's even an exceptionally good German movie about this entire phenomenon (it was discovered first in Germany): Die Welle (The Wave)
vertnerd 7y ago
I'm intrigued by the fact that parents didn't get involved. In the early 70s my brother's social studies teacher must have heard about this guy because he did a similar thing in his classroom. As I remember it my mother flipped her shit and started making calls. She was having none of it.
jader201 7y ago
For those interested, “Lesson Plan”, the documentary mentioned in the article, is streaming on Prime right now. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076KS3CCS https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076KS3CCS
ngcc_hk 7y ago
This talked like it is yesterday. It is now. I have the same question to china and why even out of the totalitarian system and lived in USA those chinese student still work for and like a country that not allow this and that. No democracy. No google and all privacy. No individual. And have the-education camp. And of course forcing the whole HK to revolt. Why the Chinese can live in china?
musicale 7y ago
The third wave sounds pretty similar to the way schools (and many other organizations) often work anyway: strict enforcement of social status and arbitrary rules, strict codes for speech, dress, and behavior, encouragement of informers, public shaming and punishment, and an overall emphasis on groupthink and compliance.

203 points by carrozo 7y ago

This must have been a strong ispiration for the aptly named "The Wave" (2008), although I couldn't find any reference either side. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1063669/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1063669/

Stratoscope 7y ago
Indeed: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0429168/bio https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0429168/bio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment)
arnarbi 7y ago
The book is so well known in many countries as it's part of the standard curriculum (I had to read it when I was 16), so I think the German film makers felt it needed no particular references to the story. It's right next to Animal Farm, Brave New World, and 1984. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(2008_film)#Differences_from_the_1981_film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(2008_film)#Differenc...
- throwaway40324 7y ago
  Perhaps, Lord of The Flies is somewhere on that shelf, as well. Gosh I should go back and read all those again!
Torwald 7y ago
I thought everybody knew that the book the movie was based on was based on the story in the OP. We had to read the book in school (in Europe). I feel old now.

AceJohnny2 7y ago

It's really strange to me that this story seems to be so unknown in the US. It's such an important and powerful lesson. In contrast, I was educated in a European system, and in history class there was strong emphasis on the lessons of being subjected to or being on the brink of a fascist system. There are memorials to the Shoah and the Resistance in every town. The US enjoyed the luxury of saying "it didn't happen here", but the education system at large really seems to have willfully ignored the lessons Europe has learned. Hell, the movie about this was german!

arnarbi 7y ago
There was an earlier, but seemingly less popular American TV movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(1981_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(1981_film)
- neuronexmachina 7y ago
  I remember watching that in my public school in Florida in the early 90s.
jadell 7y ago
I went to public school in the US. We read the book _The Wave_ in 9th grade (possibly 8th, I don't really remember. It was early high school.) I don't remember ever discussing that it was based on a true event. I didn't learn that until much later. I feel like it would have had a much bugger impact if that fact had been included in the lesson.
inamberclad 7y ago
No kidding. I went to high school in the next town over and have never heard about this.
garmaine 7y ago
There is no “US educational system.” School policy is set at the state and local level. I remember being taught this material and the book being assigned reading.

shiblukhan 7y ago

Although many may attempt to associate Trump with Hitler, the true bullies of today are Islamic terrorists and leftist socialists. Whenever these two groups are challenged for their violent tactics, they accuse opposition of being racist or bigots. With the defeat of Clinton, the protests did not include any form of debate, but simply involved violence and intimidation in the attempt to force conformity to the leftist view. It is true that it is happening today. Just look at the public schools and universities to see how leftists have controlled the lessons being taught and influenced students to have disdain for their own country while terrorists are glorified as heroes. And millions of patents are willing to spend billions of dollars on such nonsense without question. Parents should demand a refund.

shiblukhan 7y ago

Have you seen the latest "NEWSWEEK" they have gone all out with this Godwin's Law hysteria. They put Hitler on the front cover, a flag of the fringe American Nazi Party on the back, and the entire issue is devoted to Trump-Hitler comparisons. You are gravely insulting all the Americans around you who voted for him. As grandson of European Jews who were gassed, I find these comparisons incredibly disturbing. The sensationalist media ought to be ashamed of themselves. www.paloaltoonline.com has lost all credibility. EDITORS: Please drop your severely biased aenda and cover the news NEUTRALLY

spicyramen 7y ago

Fascism is a movement on the left, normally is associated with right movement as is easier to associate fascism with racism versus other left excesses. Giovanni Gentile it's main philosopher has been deleted from history. Today's world Fascism is more associated with the violent left than right itself (Trans kids, pronoun movement, ANTIFA, etc.)

dang 7y ago
Would you please stop taking HN threads into ideological flamewar? It's off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dang 7y ago

Here's the teacher's riveting account, from 1972: http://libcom.org/history/the-third-wave-1967-account-ron-jones http://libcom.org/history/the-third-wave-1967-account-ron-jo... (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2480260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2480260 from 2011, but only one comment there). Here's the article from the school paper at the time, which includes details missing from the other articles, such as that the senior class staged a coup and kidnapped the teacher: https://imgur.com/t/nazism/hXgrmKX https://imgur.com/t/nazism/hXgrmKX. The timeline disagrees with the other articles too. Can anybody find a previous discussion of this on HN? "Wave" and "third wave" are such overloaded terms.

nkurz 7y ago
There are a few links to the associated Wikipedia article, but only one with a comment: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&query=%22third%20wave%22%20wikipedia https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&query=%22third%20wave%... The 1981 movie about the incident seems to be on Youtube, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICng-KRxXJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICng-KRxXJ8
networkimprov 7y ago
This is an instructive lesson for young people, but it's important to understand the context of Europe and Germany in the 1920s and 30s... Embittered in the wake of the Great War, depleted by it and the reparations imposed by the Allies, battered by a global depression, facing Soviet expansionism, and struggling with a dysfunctional political culture. It wasn't simply ideology that sold fascism in the real world.
- sunstone 7y ago
  Clearly the US had learned this lesson when Japan surrendered.
goto11 7y ago
I suspect the story have been adjusted and embellished afterwards in order to clearer teach the lesson it was supposed to. The students staging a coup and kidnapping the teacher sounds like a fun bit of roleplay which perhaps got out of hand, but doesn't really support the lesson that we all are easy victims of fascism. Some other comments suggest the episode was "hushed down" because they never heard about it. It might also be that it wasn't as big as dramatic an episode in the first place, as it was later presented.

friendlybus 7y ago

What is the bright side to community, order and the rest of it? Every ww2 and excessively tribal story ends badly and we need to be reminded of that. But we always have moments in history when tribalism comes back and we will in the future. How can we use this to our advantage? Last time it came up we made some good advances in the understanding of human perception & consciousness. Can we use this power for good?

j9461701 7y ago
The good side of community, order and obedience to authority are the entire civilized world and all the goodies within it. Hospitals, electricity, cozy homes that stay cold in the summer and hot in the winter. Without the human tendency to group up and follow leaders nothing works and little gets done. Sometimes this habit goes wrong on us, and results in lynch mobs or Nazism. But overall it's still one of our greatest strengths as a species, and we need to be aware of its failure modes rather than rejecting the whole idea outright. Cooperation is one of the animal world's superpowers.
- knolax 7y ago
  Chimpanzees also have community, order, and obedience. Where are their hospitals?
- paxys 7y ago
  Everything you mention can be born out of individualism, not just by blind conformity and having any fixed social structure.
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    Individualism is a spirit that infects us all. It is invested in heavily by the rich and is heralded from the most credible academics and political leaders as the correct way to be or live. Where is the line between the content of the idea individualism and the political reinforcement of the idea in the populace? It is apart of the fixed social structure already. Is being governed by a shared idea, not blind conformity in itself?

throwaway40324 7y ago

Even though the entirety of the stories are completely different, I couldn't help but start to picture scenes from The Dead Poet Society while reading the article. How does it go? Oh captain, my captain? Edit: PS: I did watch DPS in school in the US, but just heard of the third wave here today.

cmroanirgo 7y ago

Wow. In one short week this all happened and was defused by the teacher: > There is no such thing as a national youth movement called the Third Wave. You have been used. Manipulated. Shoved by your own desires into the place you now find yourself. You are no better or worse than the German Nazis we have been studying And > Silence is what happens when you feel shame What I find particularly interesting is that the basic elements of what happened can be seen in all walks of life, even in tech. Eg. The 'gamification' that many products use, is very much like the 'follow our rules and you'll be rewarded', and the 'belief' in a central tenant becomes a central rule of authority. The marketing slogans used to gain groundswell are the same: an agenda to deepen one's commitment to the cause. Even HN, with it's karma, @dang as our bodyguard, with YC as the central body. All down and up votes on this comment will prove the point that the secret police are here too, gauging my suitability to the cause. So, a fantastic article that shows we all have natural tendencies to be sheep, but are all also wanting to be elitist sheep.

mistermann 7y ago
> All down and up votes on this comment will prove the point that the secret police are here too, gauging my suitability to the cause. Whats so easy to see in others is almost impossible to see in oneself.
sitkack 7y ago
I see this all the time when folks at work are trying to "fit in" and project the right signals up-ladder. They entertain ideas that if put forward by a peer would be ruthlessly ridiculed. They make inane jokes that we all uncomfortably laugh at, while they focus on non-problems and ignore unknown-knowns. I feel shame for putting up with those clumsy charades.
- extempore 7y ago
  I have a feeling you mean that they ignore known unknowns. Everyone ignores unknown knowns, because they are unknown.
labster 7y ago

aazaa 7y ago

> "What was interesting during the Wave was that the very bright kids were excluded and martialed out of the classroom by guards early on. That left the middle group, who then felt empowered. That's probably what's happening today in the United States. People who felt left out suddenly are in control, and it feels good. The topic of resistance to mass totalitarian movements is more relevant now than ever before. The article, like history, unfortunately paints a very bleak picture for the prospects. In the classroom study, as in historical episodes, the deck was stacked against resisters from the start. They got the same reward for going along as successfully revolting: > ... "He [the teacher] told us, 'If you're an active participant, I'll give you an A; if you just go along with it, I'll give you a C; if you try a revolution, I'll give you an F, but if your revolution succeeds, I'll give you an A.' In other words, resistance requires values that transcend immediate rewards and punishments. The path of greatest reward/effort lies in going along to get along, and most people will take it without thinking too much. Beyond that, successful revolutionaries need a great deal of skill to avoid detection. The unskilled "bright" students were caught and banished early, and I don't doubt that those doing the banishing felt very good about that. Only two students mounted a noteworthy resistance effort: > Out of all the students, only two actively resisted -- sophomores Alyssa Hess and Sherry Tousley. On the final day, Hess stood up in class and urged her classmates not to attend the rally. Tousley resisted from the start. Tousley was one of Jones' top students who had been banished from class early on for questioning the movement's purpose. She anonymously launched an anti-Wave resistance group, "The Breakers." In the documentary "Lesson Plan," she said her father drove her to Cubberley before school hours so she could hang anti-Wave posters up high in the halls so students couldn't tear them down. Until the making of the documentary 40 years later, not a single person -- except her father -- knew Tousley was the sole person behind the resistance group. Hess's stand at the end of class, although brave, had little effect. Worse, it couldn't be repeated. This is unfortunately the fate of most resisters because it takes a lot of skill to mess with the steamroller and survive. Tousley's effort was much more interesting in that she was able to work on a recurring basis in a way that avoided detection.

humanrebar 7y ago
> The topic of resistance to mass totalitarian movements is more relevant now than ever before. Especially since we seem to have bimodal totalitarian impulses. Two opposing cultures, both of whom seem content primarily existing to reject the other. I hope both cultures learn how to live with each other, tolerating dissent, before ignoring civil norms (i.e. escalating bigotry, violence) starts becoming attractive.

skybrian 7y ago

The suprising part is that they apparently didn't spend any class time talking it over after it happened?

empath75 7y ago

It’s a great story but it’s almost certainly too good to be true. There were a whole lot of things along this vein showing how good people can be manipulated to put innocent people into gas chambers as part of the restoration of Germany as part of the ‘free world’ The truth is that people aren’t good, and a lot of them would love to put people in gas chambers and all it takes is the people in power allowing them to do it. No manipulation required. The Nazis were not evil geniuses that figured out how to twist the good intentions of people into evil ends. They were brutal, moronic sociopaths that allowed the natural hateful tendencies of people to flourish. It’s a dangerous myth to believe that democracy and freedom is the natural state of man and that chaos and destruction is the aberration. It’s precisely the opposite. Democracy and peace and freedom are states that one has to continuously work for and make sacrifices to sustain. The us is learning that the hard way right now. It doesn’t take a genius to destroy democracy. It just takes one hateful idiot in charge who allows and encourages hate and violence to flourish.

mistermann 7y ago
> The truth is that people aren’t good, and a lot of them would love to put people in gas chambers and all it takes is the people in power allowing them to do it. Is this a fact, or a theory? If it's a fact, are you able to convince a very open minded person like me of it?
- Aeolos 7y ago
  There are several decades of sociological research on similar topic.s If you are interested, the following book is a good introduction with extensive references: https://www.theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-book/ https://www.theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-bo... One of the most startling relevations (to me) was that you don't need to be a "bad" person in order to do things one could consider immoral. All it takes is an immoral leader who is able to exploit certain personality traits and convictions that can be found in many of us. Even though this text was written in 2005, it provides an explanatory framework for things that are more relevant today than ever. It's worth a read.
- truth_be_told 7y ago

lubujackson 7y ago

My Sociology teacher in high school did a much tamer version of this experiment when we were reading Lord of the Flies. As we read it chapter by chapter, he kept asking, "Does anyone believe in the Beast?" One kid finally said yes and he got all giddy, gave the kid a special seat by the front of the class and gave him a stuffed animal "beast" to hold. As we read further and further he kept asking classmates? "Do you believe in the Beast?" He would give small things to the growing group, leave class 5 minutes early, some candy maybe, little things. But one by one the whole class joined the group, just as the true meaning of the Beast became apparent. Such an interesting lesson!

wallace_f 7y ago
Personally, I've experienced a mix of extremes in both privilege and oppression. While some people are really good, and some really evil, most of humanity has thos duality. They love you when you're successful, or for your popularity. But it's amazing how easily they can really turn their backs on you, even for no good reason. There is an idea that: 'Nazis were regular people.' By some accounts the most common method of those millions who were murdered in the Killing Fields was by pick axe, to save bullets and money. The immediate reaction of that for me was the callousness, torture. But if you stop to think about it, how personal of a method is that? This was not just mass genocide, and it was not industrialized. It was carried out by masses of people with their own hands in a personalized way. After my traumatic experiences with psychopathic cheating, abuse as an adult, now every time I hear or read of psychopathy happening today -- what is essentially just one group of people abusing, exploiting power over others for personal gain at the expense of others' liberties -- I think "Oh my God, we all need to wake up and do something." It feels like every day there is some new form of tyranny I learn about which is happening today, which is considered so ordinary that it is allowed to persist. Sometimes they are obvious evils, such as The Insulin Racket, Abu Ghraib or the Collateral Murder leaks, for example. But other times I see some of these group tyrannies have propaganda machine behind them which are not different from other forms of facism or tyrannical power structures, such as I think is the case with Big Pharma or Wall Street. I think there is a crazy duality with humanity where we have abuse, tyranny always so close, and tolerated. We all know what it is -- that it is evil. We all hate it, and are ashamed of it. We always criticize it when it is at a distance, but then nobody is doing anything about it just as past generations did as well.

known 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire is relevant

countryqt30 7y ago

There's even an exceptionally good German movie about this entire phenomenon (it was discovered first in Germany): Die Welle (The Wave)

vertnerd 7y ago

I'm intrigued by the fact that parents didn't get involved. In the early 70s my brother's social studies teacher must have heard about this guy because he did a similar thing in his classroom. As I remember it my mother flipped her shit and started making calls. She was having none of it.

jader201 7y ago

For those interested, “Lesson Plan”, the documentary mentioned in the article, is streaming on Prime right now. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076KS3CCS https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076KS3CCS

ngcc_hk 7y ago

This talked like it is yesterday. It is now. I have the same question to china and why even out of the totalitarian system and lived in USA those chinese student still work for and like a country that not allow this and that. No democracy. No google and all privacy. No individual. And have the-education camp. And of course forcing the whole HK to revolt. Why the Chinese can live in china?

musicale 7y ago

The third wave sounds pretty similar to the way schools (and many other organizations) often work anyway: strict enforcement of social status and arbitrary rules, strict codes for speech, dress, and behavior, encouragement of informers, public shaming and punishment, and an overall emphasis on groupthink and compliance.