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>Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two sto

>Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. Imagine being unable to buy food because (an algorithm at) Visa or MasterCard decided that you violated their (community) standards. Oh wait, we don't have to imagine anything, because that's the world we already live in. Not only do these corporations ban some individuals, some of them (Paypal, Square) seem to be taking aim at outright banning the sale of certain goods that are otherwise considered to be legal.

e12e 7y ago
You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. Now,if you're paid into your libra account (or indeed PayPal account, Apple pay, Google whatever) - then you're indeed at the whim of those companies use policies. Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook - but Facebook might suspend your account and your libra over it. Note that for example in Norway (probably Europe?) every card transaction is run through a check for money laundering and criminal/suspicious activity in real-time. You touch your card, central authority can decline the transaction. (I have a friend that used to work on this system, implementing rules). But they don't check your tweet history (although, I'm sure the intelligence services do, and I assume they have a secret, quasi-legal "terrorist" watch list that probably is linked to this system somehow).
- tenpies 7y ago
  > You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. But we've already seen that you can effectively be "banned" from the financial system in the United States. Just look at Alex Jones and what California is trying to do against the NRA. Regardless of what you think of them, it is very obvious that they are canaries. It should be very obvious to everyone that there is a political movement trying to weaponize the financial system against their opposition under the guise of re-defining terrorism and hate speech.
  - e12e 7y ago
    Now, there are separate issues here - the limit of banking for "bad actors" (terrorists, hate speech, democracy activists...). That is mostly happening through the proper channels, that is the police and the judicial system do the policing and the legislative system makes the rules. That in itself isn't a safeguard against abuse - but the other aspect is the privatization of utilities, and self-moderation that these companies do. In between is the credit rating system, which allows for pretty arbitrarily denying banking services to individuals. Still, if you are paid in a regulated currency, you still have an option to use cash. An access to legal tender. With something like Libra, a private corporation, with a horrible track record wrt complaints/customer service can vanish your money because a friend shared a picture on your "wall", or some other entirely arbitrary thing that leads to account suspension. You don't have to go out of your way to purchase fertilizer, diesel and nails - you could do a million different completely innocent things and still be locked out of your money - with no real recourse - including a viable legal recourse.
- anticensor 7y ago
  > Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook Member banks of VISA can. Remember that VISA is a limited-liability partnership founded by banks.
  - e12e 7y ago
    They don't have access to your not-world-public Facebook posts, or flagged posts? So they literally cannot flag your bank details over such things? Do you mean that visa employees can flag your account over personal reasons?

e12e 7y ago

You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. Now,if you're paid into your libra account (or indeed PayPal account, Apple pay, Google whatever) - then you're indeed at the whim of those companies use policies. Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook - but Facebook might suspend your account and your libra over it. Note that for example in Norway (probably Europe?) every card transaction is run through a check for money laundering and criminal/suspicious activity in real-time. You touch your card, central authority can decline the transaction. (I have a friend that used to work on this system, implementing rules). But they don't check your tweet history (although, I'm sure the intelligence services do, and I assume they have a secret, quasi-legal "terrorist" watch list that probably is linked to this system somehow).

tenpies 7y ago
> You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. But we've already seen that you can effectively be "banned" from the financial system in the United States. Just look at Alex Jones and what California is trying to do against the NRA. Regardless of what you think of them, it is very obvious that they are canaries. It should be very obvious to everyone that there is a political movement trying to weaponize the financial system against their opposition under the guise of re-defining terrorism and hate speech.
- e12e 7y ago
  Now, there are separate issues here - the limit of banking for "bad actors" (terrorists, hate speech, democracy activists...). That is mostly happening through the proper channels, that is the police and the judicial system do the policing and the legislative system makes the rules. That in itself isn't a safeguard against abuse - but the other aspect is the privatization of utilities, and self-moderation that these companies do. In between is the credit rating system, which allows for pretty arbitrarily denying banking services to individuals. Still, if you are paid in a regulated currency, you still have an option to use cash. An access to legal tender. With something like Libra, a private corporation, with a horrible track record wrt complaints/customer service can vanish your money because a friend shared a picture on your "wall", or some other entirely arbitrary thing that leads to account suspension. You don't have to go out of your way to purchase fertilizer, diesel and nails - you could do a million different completely innocent things and still be locked out of your money - with no real recourse - including a viable legal recourse.
anticensor 7y ago
> Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook Member banks of VISA can. Remember that VISA is a limited-liability partnership founded by banks.
- e12e 7y ago
  They don't have access to your not-world-public Facebook posts, or flagged posts? So they literally cannot flag your bank details over such things? Do you mean that visa employees can flag your account over personal reasons?