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People who worked extensively with XMPP in the past told me that it just wasn't cut for the current paradigm, with real-time and asynchronous communication, net

by K0SM0S 7y ago

People who worked extensively with XMPP in the past told me that it just wasn't cut for the current paradigm, with real-time and asynchronous communication, network hopping (mobile, wifi, etc) and just the way things evolved since... 1999. There were some changes planned but apparently the whole thing would be better off rewritten in a new form, and the effort never really kicked off, much like the protocol itself faded from use as we moved towards more and more hybrid networks and uses. It's a sad realization, I always thought XMPP would save the day some day, but apparently there's a lot of work between now and there. And it might just as well be called something else. I think the latest move towards HTTP/3 enforcing SSL1.3 is one way to envision a fully secured web, 10 years from now.

auscompgeek 7y ago
> apparently the whole thing would be better off rewritten in a new form It seems to me that this is basically describing Matrix [1]. Funnily enough, since its current transport is HTTP, it looks like by the time HTTP/3 becomes a thing, network hopping would be solved essentially for free. [1]: https://matrix.org https://matrix.org
- geoah 7y ago
  Was wondering what you mean by network hopping. Assuming that by http3 we mean quic, does it provide some functionality for message routing that I’m missing? I’m most likely either misunderstanding what you mean by hopping or completely missing a feature if quic. Thank you
  - auscompgeek 7y ago
    From what I understand, QUIC allows for IP roaming, much like how mosh does.
- RX14 7y ago
  Matrix is a fundamentally broken protocol held up by the prowess of it's UI design team.
  - ptx 7y ago
    How is it fundamentally broken?
  - minitech 7y ago
    Can you explain why? (Not looking for any great detail, just a starting point.)
baybal2 7y ago
Ever looked at internet bill for things like GPS loggers using http? Even most barebone request often eats more bits than data That's why nor HTTP nor XMPP will be going anywhere
- tonyarkles 7y ago
  It’s funny... I have, sort of. A place I used to work at had a bunch of old serial devices connected to the internet via Ethernet-serial gateways. To query them, we connected over Telnet (heh). The original devices had a CLI, and the polling was done by sending a series of keystrokes to the devices. Each keystroke was one byte, and was wrapped in an entire TCP packet (~40 bytes, if I recall). We were blowing through our 1MB (yes...) SIM cards quite quickly, and it was 98% just packet overhead. I can only imagine what it would have been like over http.
Andrew_nenakhov 7y ago
We work extensively with XMPP, so I can speak with some authority on this topic. It is true, the protocol was invented in 1999 for then-relevant conditions. There are good things - everything that is related to federation works remarkably well, and bad things - multi-device usage, reconnection, etc. However, the very thing that is mostly panned here by Matrix proponents - modularity and extensibility - allows to uplift it for the modern world. Actually, we recently did just that, by developing a bunch of new protocols and implementing them on an XMPP server. I'll spare the verbose details, but in short, we redesigned reconnection process from a resumption of an XML stream to restoration of messenger state, and it works rather well. That set of protocol extensions greatly helps to improve the performance of our upcoming XMPP client.
- e12e 7y ago
  Who are "we" and what client/projects are you working on? Are these changes new public XEPs that others can/will implement?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 7y ago
    "We" are makers of Xabber, a popular XMPP client for Android. It had gotten a bit stale lately: a few years ago we figured out that XMPP improvement should start on the server-side, so we diverted all our resources towards creating a set of protocol and implementation it on a server, an alpha version of which was released last month, it has a built-in an insanely great web version of Xabber, which likely offers the best XMPP UX ever, on any platform. We also plan to release an iOS version of Xabber soon - this month or next. Our protocols are public, and we plan to submit them to XSF, once we're done translating them from our native language. Hopefully, these XEPs would be supported one day by other clients. We believe they are crucial for XMPP future.
    - e12e 7y ago
      Very interesting. Which server are you enhancing? Do you provide xmpp hosting?
inputmice 7y ago
As someone who has worked extensively with XMPP in the last ~6 years let me tell you that it works fine with network hopping, multiple devices and everything else you'd come to expect from a modern IM experience in the likes of WhatsApp and Signal. I have written a lengthy article in 2016 in the state of mobile XMPP: https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html The situation has only improved from there.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  I'll read it with much interest, thanks a lot. You know, I like the sound of you and the makers of Xabber. The "myth" of XMPP being unsuited to mobile / IM is clearly overblown if you're only even half-right about it all (because then that means there's no "fundamentally broken" paradigm). It's great to hear the community is active nonetheless! ~

by K0SM0S 7y ago

auscompgeek 7y ago

> apparently the whole thing would be better off rewritten in a new form It seems to me that this is basically describing Matrix [1]. Funnily enough, since its current transport is HTTP, it looks like by the time HTTP/3 becomes a thing, network hopping would be solved essentially for free. [1]: https://matrix.org https://matrix.org

geoah 7y ago
Was wondering what you mean by network hopping. Assuming that by http3 we mean quic, does it provide some functionality for message routing that I’m missing? I’m most likely either misunderstanding what you mean by hopping or completely missing a feature if quic. Thank you
- auscompgeek 7y ago
  From what I understand, QUIC allows for IP roaming, much like how mosh does.
RX14 7y ago
Matrix is a fundamentally broken protocol held up by the prowess of it's UI design team.
- ptx 7y ago
  How is it fundamentally broken?
- minitech 7y ago
  Can you explain why? (Not looking for any great detail, just a starting point.)

baybal2 7y ago

Ever looked at internet bill for things like GPS loggers using http? Even most barebone request often eats more bits than data That's why nor HTTP nor XMPP will be going anywhere

tonyarkles 7y ago
It’s funny... I have, sort of. A place I used to work at had a bunch of old serial devices connected to the internet via Ethernet-serial gateways. To query them, we connected over Telnet (heh). The original devices had a CLI, and the polling was done by sending a series of keystrokes to the devices. Each keystroke was one byte, and was wrapped in an entire TCP packet (~40 bytes, if I recall). We were blowing through our 1MB (yes...) SIM cards quite quickly, and it was 98% just packet overhead. I can only imagine what it would have been like over http.

Andrew_nenakhov 7y ago

We work extensively with XMPP, so I can speak with some authority on this topic. It is true, the protocol was invented in 1999 for then-relevant conditions. There are good things - everything that is related to federation works remarkably well, and bad things - multi-device usage, reconnection, etc. However, the very thing that is mostly panned here by Matrix proponents - modularity and extensibility - allows to uplift it for the modern world. Actually, we recently did just that, by developing a bunch of new protocols and implementing them on an XMPP server. I'll spare the verbose details, but in short, we redesigned reconnection process from a resumption of an XML stream to restoration of messenger state, and it works rather well. That set of protocol extensions greatly helps to improve the performance of our upcoming XMPP client.

e12e 7y ago
Who are "we" and what client/projects are you working on? Are these changes new public XEPs that others can/will implement?
- Andrew_nenakhov 7y ago
  "We" are makers of Xabber, a popular XMPP client for Android. It had gotten a bit stale lately: a few years ago we figured out that XMPP improvement should start on the server-side, so we diverted all our resources towards creating a set of protocol and implementation it on a server, an alpha version of which was released last month, it has a built-in an insanely great web version of Xabber, which likely offers the best XMPP UX ever, on any platform. We also plan to release an iOS version of Xabber soon - this month or next. Our protocols are public, and we plan to submit them to XSF, once we're done translating them from our native language. Hopefully, these XEPs would be supported one day by other clients. We believe they are crucial for XMPP future.
  - e12e 7y ago
    Very interesting. Which server are you enhancing? Do you provide xmpp hosting?

inputmice 7y ago

As someone who has worked extensively with XMPP in the last ~6 years let me tell you that it works fine with network hopping, multiple devices and everything else you'd come to expect from a modern IM experience in the likes of WhatsApp and Signal. I have written a lengthy article in 2016 in the state of mobile XMPP: https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html The situation has only improved from there.

K0SM0S 7y ago
I'll read it with much interest, thanks a lot. You know, I like the sound of you and the makers of Xabber. The "myth" of XMPP being unsuited to mobile / IM is clearly overblown if you're only even half-right about it all (because then that means there's no "fundamentally broken" paradigm). It's great to hear the community is active nonetheless! ~