5 ms·

Genuinly curious: why is this still a thing? How difficult could it be to throw together some screen, microphone and ML algorithm that would turn the pages (or

Genuinly curious: why is this still a thing? How difficult could it be to throw together some screen, microphone and ML algorithm that would turn the pages (or roll then up) at appropriate time?

Scarbutt 7y ago
Why do you think that a software solution to this requires ML?
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
  Recognizing audio as it's played and relating to written music from audio input?
  - sansnomme 7y ago
    Assuming that the musician or conductor doesn't get too creative, a lock-in amplifier coupled with a FFT should be enough to do the trick. (To put it in perspective, unless the orchestra is playing in a noisy bar, the sound of the piece should dominate from the device's perspective.)
kdmccormick 7y ago
Aside from the technical challenges of this, I think that it's not exactly in the spirit of classical performance, which often is as much about the incredible skill and attention-to-detail of the people on stage as it is about the sound of the music itself. So, I imagine many skilled pianists would still prefer a human page turner over such a device, even if it did exist and functioned perfectly.
- amelius 7y ago
  But I think a fair question is: why are these performers even using sheet music? Imagine going to a pop concert and [insert favorite artist] was reading sheet music while dancing on stage. Shouldn't the music be in "muscle memory", even for classical performers? Wouldn't that open up more opportunities for contact between the performer and audience?
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Classical music is drastically more complex. There’s orders of magnitude more stuff to remember.
  - JasonFruit 7y ago
    One difference is that Pink Floyd made their entire careers on about thirty-five songs, iirc. That's about one season's worth of one symphony orchestra's repertoire, and most performers perform with multiple ensembles to make a living. Does the wedding gig string quartet have their regular repertoire memorized? Probably. Does the orchestra have the premiere by a minor Midwestern composer memorized? No, and they never will.
  - jleightcap 7y ago
    That's an entirely fair question, and in a lot of piano auditions at least in my experience memorization is required. Most of the time, sheet music isn't helpful because it answers "what chord am I supposed to play next?" but more so as a roadmap for the structure of the piece. Take a look at the sheet music for the Stockhausen Klavierstucke mentioned in the article and you can see why this would be helpful.
  - Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
    Organ rather than piano, but the repertoire for a month of cathedral services (assuming daily Evensong plus Sunday morning Eucharist) is vast, especially considering all the registrations (stop selections). Playing all that from memory is unrealistic. Here’s a typical month at Worcester, and bear in mind it doesn’t include the voluntaries at the start and end of each service (though the start will sometimes be improvised, at least in part): http://www.worcestercathedral.co.uk/media/October_Scheme_2019.pdf http://www.worcestercathedral.co.uk/media/October_Scheme_201...
- anoncake 7y ago
  Most people aren't even aware that turning pages is a skill at all, let alone be impressed by it.
analog31 7y ago
It's happening, albeit gradually. I play music, and a growing number of musicians are showing up with what looks like an overgrown LCD tablet, and a little pedal that they step on to advance the page. One of my band-mates takes every new chart, photographs it with his cell phone, and puts the chart back into the band's files. Some pitfalls: The screens have to be big, with no glare. Each musician needs access to a scanner that can handle oversize pages. There needs to be a format that lets the musicians make edits and annotations on the fly. The tech has to work perfectly. How many of us have been to meetings where something went wrong with the projector, or with PowerPoint? To either earn a living or even be reasonably busy as an amateur, musicians have to handle a lot of last-minute work with multiple groups that all have varying levels of tech savvy. The bandleader just has to be in possession of the physical sheets, to be absolutely assured that they will work.
yellowapple 7y ago
You don't even need the microphone or ML. You just need two foot pedals - one to move forward, and one to move back.
- amelius 7y ago
  The problem is that some instruments have pedals too (e.g. the piano).
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    Right, but I can't think of very many situations where you're using both feet on a piano (in fact, I don't know if that's even mechanically possible). So that leaves at least one foot. Organists would have to figure out some other strategy, though, since they do use both feet frequently. Still, if there's a button to push somewhere on the organ, that'd be at least easier than flipping a physical page.
    - pcc 7y ago
      Yes it's very much mechanically possible to use 2 pedals on the piano at the same time; it's not actually that uncommon. For organists, these days pipe organs are usually outfit with a sequencer that allows the organist to program a list of registration changes (the combination of pipes/stops used) ahead of time; the organist then advances through the sequence of registrations, by bumping a bumper pedal with the side of their foot, or by pushing a toe stud pedal. Sometimes there are multiple toe stud pedals, which either allow for jumping straight to a specific combination, or for using the closest one as the program advance.
      - Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
        There’ll usually be a thumb piston for the sequencer as well as a foot piston, too.
    - jleightcap 7y ago
      There are many examples where two pedals are used simultaneously. If I'm remembering correctly, there's even a moment in a Ligeti Etude where all three pedals are needed. Regardless, using an iPad for sheet music is already being a adopted by classical pianists minus the foot pedals, like Yuja Wang: https://youtu.be/ZbEtk1kdYx4 https://youtu.be/ZbEtk1kdYx4
forinti 7y ago
I've only seen something like this once: Daniel Hope playing Gabriel Prokoviev's violin concerto. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985lfzTs79Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985lfzTs79Q I don't know what software he uses or how the pages get turned (by the time spent?).

Genuinly curious: why is this still a thing? How difficult could it be to throw together some screen, microphone and ML algorithm that would turn the pages (or roll then up) at appropriate time?

Scarbutt 7y ago

Why do you think that a software solution to this requires ML?

yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
Recognizing audio as it's played and relating to written music from audio input?
- sansnomme 7y ago
  Assuming that the musician or conductor doesn't get too creative, a lock-in amplifier coupled with a FFT should be enough to do the trick. (To put it in perspective, unless the orchestra is playing in a noisy bar, the sound of the piece should dominate from the device's perspective.)

kdmccormick 7y ago

Aside from the technical challenges of this, I think that it's not exactly in the spirit of classical performance, which often is as much about the incredible skill and attention-to-detail of the people on stage as it is about the sound of the music itself. So, I imagine many skilled pianists would still prefer a human page turner over such a device, even if it did exist and functioned perfectly.

amelius 7y ago
But I think a fair question is: why are these performers even using sheet music? Imagine going to a pop concert and [insert favorite artist] was reading sheet music while dancing on stage. Shouldn't the music be in "muscle memory", even for classical performers? Wouldn't that open up more opportunities for contact between the performer and audience?
- closeparen 7y ago
  Classical music is drastically more complex. There’s orders of magnitude more stuff to remember.
- JasonFruit 7y ago
  One difference is that Pink Floyd made their entire careers on about thirty-five songs, iirc. That's about one season's worth of one symphony orchestra's repertoire, and most performers perform with multiple ensembles to make a living. Does the wedding gig string quartet have their regular repertoire memorized? Probably. Does the orchestra have the premiere by a minor Midwestern composer memorized? No, and they never will.
- jleightcap 7y ago
  That's an entirely fair question, and in a lot of piano auditions at least in my experience memorization is required. Most of the time, sheet music isn't helpful because it answers "what chord am I supposed to play next?" but more so as a roadmap for the structure of the piece. Take a look at the sheet music for the Stockhausen Klavierstucke mentioned in the article and you can see why this would be helpful.
- Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
  Organ rather than piano, but the repertoire for a month of cathedral services (assuming daily Evensong plus Sunday morning Eucharist) is vast, especially considering all the registrations (stop selections). Playing all that from memory is unrealistic. Here’s a typical month at Worcester, and bear in mind it doesn’t include the voluntaries at the start and end of each service (though the start will sometimes be improvised, at least in part): http://www.worcestercathedral.co.uk/media/October_Scheme_2019.pdf http://www.worcestercathedral.co.uk/media/October_Scheme_201...
anoncake 7y ago
Most people aren't even aware that turning pages is a skill at all, let alone be impressed by it.

analog31 7y ago

It's happening, albeit gradually. I play music, and a growing number of musicians are showing up with what looks like an overgrown LCD tablet, and a little pedal that they step on to advance the page. One of my band-mates takes every new chart, photographs it with his cell phone, and puts the chart back into the band's files. Some pitfalls: The screens have to be big, with no glare. Each musician needs access to a scanner that can handle oversize pages. There needs to be a format that lets the musicians make edits and annotations on the fly. The tech has to work perfectly. How many of us have been to meetings where something went wrong with the projector, or with PowerPoint? To either earn a living or even be reasonably busy as an amateur, musicians have to handle a lot of last-minute work with multiple groups that all have varying levels of tech savvy. The bandleader just has to be in possession of the physical sheets, to be absolutely assured that they will work.

yellowapple 7y ago

You don't even need the microphone or ML. You just need two foot pedals - one to move forward, and one to move back.

amelius 7y ago
The problem is that some instruments have pedals too (e.g. the piano).
- yellowapple 7y ago
  Right, but I can't think of very many situations where you're using both feet on a piano (in fact, I don't know if that's even mechanically possible). So that leaves at least one foot. Organists would have to figure out some other strategy, though, since they do use both feet frequently. Still, if there's a button to push somewhere on the organ, that'd be at least easier than flipping a physical page.
  - pcc 7y ago
    Yes it's very much mechanically possible to use 2 pedals on the piano at the same time; it's not actually that uncommon. For organists, these days pipe organs are usually outfit with a sequencer that allows the organist to program a list of registration changes (the combination of pipes/stops used) ahead of time; the organist then advances through the sequence of registrations, by bumping a bumper pedal with the side of their foot, or by pushing a toe stud pedal. Sometimes there are multiple toe stud pedals, which either allow for jumping straight to a specific combination, or for using the closest one as the program advance.
    - Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
      There’ll usually be a thumb piston for the sequencer as well as a foot piston, too.
  - jleightcap 7y ago
    There are many examples where two pedals are used simultaneously. If I'm remembering correctly, there's even a moment in a Ligeti Etude where all three pedals are needed. Regardless, using an iPad for sheet music is already being a adopted by classical pianists minus the foot pedals, like Yuja Wang: https://youtu.be/ZbEtk1kdYx4 https://youtu.be/ZbEtk1kdYx4

forinti 7y ago

I've only seen something like this once: Daniel Hope playing Gabriel Prokoviev's violin concerto. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985lfzTs79Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985lfzTs79Q I don't know what software he uses or how the pages get turned (by the time spent?).