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A Swiss Lesson in Enlightened Street Design
- jpollock 7y agoIf you're on a bike, that road is lethal. Any mistake and your tire's going into the track and you're on the ground.
- sschueller 7y agoYou just have to be careful. It's not such a problem. Bikes are also supposed to ride on the side of the road or on the bike paths.
- IdontRememberIt 7y agoIt is an issue. When the tram or you turn and the angle is too small.
- jen729w 7y agoI live in Melbourne where cyclists and trams co-exist quite happily. It’s unusual for someone to be hurt by a tram. Contrast with the carnage that is cars v. bikes in London.
- IdontRememberIt 7y agoSorry, I was not clear. The danger does not come from the tram but from the tracks. It is not unusual to see people falling (when they cross the tracks at a too low angle) especially when wet and/or icy/snowy and/or thin tires and/or not attentive (mobile phone...).
- jessaustin 7y agoThis might be a situation that calls for fat tires on a mountain bike rather than skinny tires on a road bike.
- Noos 7y agoMy big thing was how can you ride a bike when the same bike lane is used for passengers on the tram. So the tram comes, stops, and passengers disembark-you cannot ride at speed then or it would be superhumanly easy to run someone down.
- nxpnsv 7y agoYou learn fast, zürich is not a bad place to bike. I bike with the tram on my daily commute in vienna. Cars are by far a bigger danger on the roads. My experience as a biker in zürich was pleasant, like most things in there, a really nice place to visit...
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- blue_devil 7y agoIn Amsterdam I've seen women wearing 3-inch high heels cycle safely, _across_ the tracks.
- coldcode 7y agoThis happened in a country with direct democracy, instead of the political complexities in my country (US). It also took a long time to implement (another downfall of US policy making). It's also a much smaller country. But I wish we could do this, but it seems unlikely in much of the US to ever move away from car central design.
- wereHamster 7y agoIt was the canton's decision. Direct democracy was involved [1], but at the local level, not nation-wide. People from other cantons in Switzerland had no say in this matter. The people of Zurich have decided that they want that. Zurich is not a big city, by global standards, but any city with similar size can make these decisions, if they want to pursue the same goals. [1] Examples: in 2014 the people of Zurich decided (66% voted yes) to extend tram line 8, in 2017 that extension was opened. And just this year a the tram line 2 was extended to reach further into the suburbs of Zurich, and further work is planed for the next few years. People of Zurich also voted on these extensions, and will continue to in the coming years.
- mc32 7y agoI’m curious about what their cost structure looks like. In SF building about 2.75km of a combo of bored tunnel and cut and cover tram tunnels cost $1.5 billion...
- microtherion 7y agoI don't know offhand what the current extension costs, but the full extension of 13.4km is projected to cost about $750M.
- wereHamster 7y agoConstruction of the tram 8 extension took place 2015-2017, total costs of 170mio. The length of new tracks was only a few hundred meters, the rest of the line is sharing tracks with existing lines. Everything above the ground. Difficult part of the construction was the fact that the new tracks were built across an existing bridge that is also used by car traffic. Nothing too difficult I suppose, just a bit of clever traffic management was needed (both during construction and afterwards).
- rpmisms 7y agoI love seeing solutions like this work in small European countries with small, homogeneous populations, and then watching a bunch of Silicon Valley folk--who live in a relatively small, homogeneous population--rant about how this should be the standard for the whole US, which has neither a small nor homogeneous population. Edit: homogeneous areas, not populations. My bad.
- namdnay 7y agoI’m not sure what is homogenous about Switzerland? If anything it’s one of the more heterogeneous countries out there: a federation of regions with quite different cultures and languages. And Swiss towns are far more mixed socio-economically than the segregated suburbs common to many other countries
- rpmisms 7y agoRelative to the US, every country is homogenous. We're a huge, sprawling mass of literally every country on earth, liberally sprinkled across dozens of different biomes.
- namdnay 7y agoOk, but what does this have to do with urban planning. The EU is a huge sprawling mass of literally every country in earth across dozens of biomes, and yet that didn’t stop Zurich from making these choices
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- dijit 7y agoInterestingly London had one of the most extensive tram systems in Europe, but sadly it was mostly abolished in favour of the Car because: 1) cars = freedom 2) trams are for the poor A good little mini-doc by Jay Foreman spells it out nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji3C_PjJonM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji3C_PjJonM Interestingly, a very similar story in the UK surrounding bicycles. :\ I wouldn't call Zurichs streets perfect though; by sheer coincidence I spent the majority of today exploring the city for the first time in my life and was very confused on how to cross the road at a lot of very ill-thought-out junctions. And there are still a lot of very loud cars on the road. However; I will admit there is a "feeling" when walking through the city that it was well thought out in general, I felt like I had a lot of space and I didn't get the same claustrophobic feeling I get in NYC or the cramped "intruded" feeling I get in London.
- kijin 7y agoLondon still has one of the most extensive underground railway systems in the world, as well as the most iconic buses. Notwithstanding the nostalgia that we often associate with them, trams are not a magical method of transportation. Nothing of value is lost if you can get the same job done with trains underground and buses above. Underground railways have the additional benefit of not taking up precious urban space that could be used by e.g. bicycles. It just happens that digging tunnels is much more expensive than embedding a pair of rails in the pavement, so cities have to think harder about short-term costs vs. long-term benefits.
- dijit 7y agoI would very much love to agree with you. But London’s public transportation system, while very good considering its age and the extensiveness of deployment is not perfect; it is not a stretch to call it overburdened. I lived there for 5 years and absolutely dreaded commuting. A quick win would be to prevent the morning and evening rush. But that’s another discussion entirely.
- lifeisstillgood 7y agoIf you have ideas on how to prevent that daily nightmare there are 10 million pairs of ears ready to listen :-)
- rb808 7y agoDamn that is an ugly street. Makes me appreciate subways.
- iron0013 7y agoThere's an important point appearing about 2/3rds of the way into this article: Zürich was not always oriented towards public transportation, and was in fact much more car-oriented in the post-WWII years. It was conscious, intentional, and relatively recent urban planning that made it the way it is today. Something similar also occurred in bike-friendly Amsterdam, which as recently as the late 60's was much more car-friendly and much less bike-friendly. Some folks, when shown successful examples of public-transit centered European cities, claim that it would never work in the United States, in part because, they claim, the Euro cities naturally evolved in such a way as to be more amenable to public transport than automobiles. Well, it just isn't so!
- 205guy 7y agoSomething I've come to realize is that the automobile industries in each country play an important role. Switzerland and the Netherlands don't have any major car manufacturing, though I do bet they have some suppliers. And it doesn't even have to be a direct influence (like the LA streetcar story), it's just a background of economics, priorities, and zeitgeist. Politicians and planners won't be as tempted to go against cars when some non-negligeable percentage of their economy (already fragile) is based on car manufacturing. European countries with large auto manufacturers like France, Germany, and England (also Spain and Italy) still have better transit and town planning than the US (due to history and density), but they won't be as actively seeking car-less solutions (at least until there is total gridlock in the hyper-center). But I think even there, people are realizing that in the suburbs and between towns you need cars, but if you're going to the city center, you're much better off with transit and walking.
- asdff 7y agoThe sad part is that this thinking gets entrenched in certain populations. People loose idealistic thinking and prefer to stick with the status quo. Even sadder that these certain populations are more likely to vote than those that would stand to benefit from public transport. It comes as no surprise that politicians lean so heavy on NIMBY policies when in CA 2/3 of homeowners vote compared to 1/3 of renters. Politicians are listening to those who've elected them, so if we want change and functional transport more people have to vote in local elections.
- mfelliott 7y agoI spent my youth in Geneva and the tram and buss system was fantastic. I could and did get all over town unsupervised as a 10 year old kid. I wish there was anyplace in the USA that had that level of access for our youth.
- Pfhreak 7y agoA lot of American cities had excellent street cars, and were built around rail lines, until Firestone, GM, and Standard Oil started funding National City Lines, who bought up streetcars and replaced them with buses. It's cool, their executives were fined $1 apiece, so justice was clearly served.
- k5hp 7y agolol this picture was taken right in front of my house
- em-bee 7y agoyou just told everyone exactly where you live.
- concordDance 7y agoSo? There's still a dozen houses they could be in. Too much legwork to identify.
- em-bee 7y agodepends on your thread model. the main point though was that people make such statements without thinking of the potential consequences. the comment added nothing to the discussion (that's not my complaint, just an observation) and thus reveals personal information for no purpose. the risk may be small, minuscule even, but it is greater than zero and, that is the actual point, the risk is greater than the value that the comment adds to the discussion.
- Faark 7y agoIn Street View [0] the area looks totally different from the article. I'd love to learn more. What is more up to date? If the article, why were those changes made? [0] https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3838561,8.5483138,3a,75y,188.66h,83.84t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1sJTdx2BmDuZYKJnw_Z0vwVg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DJTdx2BmDuZYKJnw_Z0vwVg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D190.51125%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i33 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3838561,8.5483138,3a,75y,188...
- Kenji 7y agoI hate the streets of Zurich. It's a nightmare for people in cars, as a pedestrian you have to look ten times left and right and still almost get run over, and the trams drive very aggressively to keep their schedule. It's hectic and dangerous. No, thanks.
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- throwaway66920 7y agoI was in Zurich for a week. The public transit seemed effective, but the city was so pretty and walkable that I didn’t use it, with the exception of a small “polybahn” rail car that seemed to go up the hillside. I didn’t know where it went, but it was 2 bucks and seemed charming so I rode it. Turns out it just went up ~three flights of stairs worth of streets.
- zhdc1 7y agoThose stairs suck though. I walked them for ~three years.
- Noos 7y agoI don't get how that downtown even works. Do the Swiss not use trucks to deliver goods? That car lane is too narrow for anything bigger than a passenger car. There's no passing lane, so what happens if an ambulance or fire truck needs to get through? How do bicycles even exist on that street, since the bike lane seems to also be the passenger disembarking lane? Why make pedestrians need to cross a line of traffic once they get off a tram? Do you think you can push a stroller between two stopped cars? What happens if someone spills a bag of groceries or goods? I mean, it looks ten times easier to actually live in a suburb than this.
- em-bee 7y agoemergency vehicles can use the rail tracks if they need to pass. them being there is actually an advantage for that because if the road was full of cars on all lanes, they could not pass either. making pedestrians cross traffic after getting off the tram is indeed an issue. but there are various solutions. usually the tram is close to an intersection with traffic lights and crossings. you use those to get to the tram. the alternative would be to have the trams run on the sides and the car traffic in the middle. but that doesn't work when the tram needs to get around the corner, because it can't turn with such a short radius. there are tradeoffs. i have lived in the suburbs and in a street like the article describes. that street is much more livable. for example i don't need to travel long distance to buy groceries. the next supermarket is usually within walking distance. other shops too, restaurants and anything else i might need. not so in the suburbs where the next mall is often kilometers away.
- zhdc1 7y agoYou can get small commercial vehicles/delivery trucks down most of the streets in Zurich. Cars are also expected to make way for emergency vehicles, and as the other poster mentioned, emergency can use the rail lane when they need to. Drivers are expected to keep crosswalks open at all times. Pedestrians at crosswalks also have the right of way, and it's extensively enforced. A lot of the junctions also have cameras - it's on you if you get stuck in one after the signals change, and the fines aren't cheap.
- mcv 7y agoThe primary thing that strikes me about that photo is how far apart the tram rails are. What's the space between the trams meant to be used for? Not cars, I assume, as that would slow the trams. It also doesn't look like a comfortable place for bikes. In fact, where are bikes even supposed to go on this street? And if you pay attention to the car in the distance, you see that trams and cars are mixed in that direction; they're only separated in the direction away from the camera. Separating trams and cars completely might do traffic a lot of good here. So it's not entirely clear to me what this street is supposed to be a good example of. Cars and trams separated in one direction, but not in the other (admittedly much less busy direction, at least at this moment). No space for bikes. It's not as punitive for cars as the article suggests, nor as great for trams as the article suggests. I guess it's okay for pedestrians. The message of the article is certainly good: when it's crowded you need to invest in more efficient forms of transportation than cars. But that top photo is a poor example of that.
- wereHamster 7y agoCan't find the exact location on google maps. But my guess is that there is a tram stop right next to where the person is standing. The fact that the tram blocks the cars is a good thing because it lets people get out without having to worry about getting run over by cars. This would be just one of many ways how tram stops are laid out along the streets. There are many factors that decide how they are built. Perhaps there was not enough space to construct a tram stop, two roads, and two tracks at the same location.
- mcv 7y agoIn Amsterdam, trams stops have a platform for people to get on and off. Is that not a thing in other cities? Also, if the tram stops cars, then cars also stop the tram, which means delays when car traffic is stuck.
- zepearl 7y ago> In Amsterdam, trams stops have a platform for people to get on and off. Is that not a thing in other cities? Almost everywhere platforms in Zurich, but with very few exceptions. > Also, if the tram stops cars, then cars also stop the tram, which means delays when car traffic is stuck. Trams in Zurich steer the traffic lights (TF) => when a tram nears an intersection the TF will switch to let it pass and when it nears a section of road which is shared with cars that occupy it, the TF in front of the cars will let cars in front of the tram pass to free that section of street / lane so that the tram can pass as well.
- concordDance 7y ago> During the peak hour, the vehicle lanes carry about 400 cars and perhaps 500 people. The entire article is based on this incredibly misleading sentence! The reason that number is so low is because of how bad the traffic is. A second lane could reduce that traffic and get you to the normal 1500-2400 cars per lane (source: light googling/wikipedia). Which is actually superior to the 1750 people per lane you get from the trams! (Given the 1.25 people per car he mentioned)
- vincnetas 7y agoHave we read the same article? It explicitly discusses scenario about what would happen if second lane would be given to cars: That would give us one more lane of travel in each direction. With the addition of turning lanes at the intersections, that would help a great deal: Now we have the room to move 700 to 800 cars per hour. (“Voila! The model shows that we are at Level of Service C or D,” reports the engineer. “Not great, but better than before”). But they’re forgetting about the 3,500 people in trams (and the thousands more on foot and on bikes). How many of them would continue using the tram if it ran in mixed traffic, and consequently was much slower and less reliable? What if just 1,000 of them decided to switch to driving or to Lyft, now that the tram would be in much poorer shape? Remember: This is a rich city, after all—people have choices. Now we are back to square one.
- concordDance 7y ago> It explicitly discusses scenario about what would happen if second lane would be given to cars Yes, it's just wrong in assuming a simple linear relationship. Unless there's something very special about Swiss roads that mean they have only a quarter of the normal throughput, then the abysmal throughput the author observed will be down to it being an endless traffic jam which could be alleviated by another lane.
- vincnetas 7y ago”During the peak hour, the vehicle lanes carry about 400 cars and perhaps 500 people. (I counted!) ” He counted, not looked up the statistics. And this is during peak hour, not peak throughtput.
- Shobji 7y agoSwitzerland is one of the best planned country in world