4 ms·

> "Sure, Scala will work great! It's future-proof and everyone will love it!" Scala is still the least-bad option for a JVM language. Anyone who can't be prod

by kod 7y ago

> "Sure, Scala will work great! It's future-proof and everyone will love it!" Scala is still the least-bad option for a JVM language. Anyone who can't be productive in Scala (not "better java", not "worse haskell", Scala) isn't someone you want on your team anyway.

s_Hogg 7y ago
> Scala is still the least-bad option for a JVM language. Source, please? > Anyone who can't be productive in Scala (not "better java", not "worse haskell", Scala) isn't someone you want on your team anyway. Why is that?
royjacobs 7y ago
I would argue that in a sufficiently large organization you're better off using plain Java or perhaps Kotlin. The latter hits the sweet spot between 'expressive' and 'unreadable' whereas Scala can miss the mark. I'm sure if you are very disciplined when writing Scala then this will not happen, etc etc. But the fact that people need to decide upfront which parts of Scala to use and which ones to avoid seem like red flags to me (and in fact were red flags, in my experience).
apta 7y ago
With Java getting value types, record types, and pattern matching it will end up giving all the other JVM languages a run for their money. Today, Kotlin is much more approachable than Scala, not to mention better tooling. Once Java catches up though, it will be a different story.
- mbo 7y ago
  When are higher-kinded types roadmapped for Java?
  - apta 7y ago
    I'm not aware that they are. It's a nice feature, but it might introduce unnecessary indirection is used inappropriately, that and the vast majority of languages get by without it without any significant hindrance.
- vips7L 7y ago
  Lots of good things coming for the jdk. I'm extremely looking for project loom (fibers) to land. I expect kotlin to fall off everywhere except android once loom and the rest of project amber land.
nemothekid 7y ago
>Anyone who can't be productive in Scala (not "better java", not "worse haskell", Scala) isn't someone you want on your team anyway. It’s funny that you gloss over one the big productivity issues with Scala. Somehow everyone who joins your team should be acutely aware of your flavor of Scala. If the community decided if wanted to be a better java or a worse Haskell then I bet more people would be productive in Scala
- kod 7y ago
  It's not "my" flavor of Scala, it's what it's designed for. It's a pragmatic, ML family language. Read Odersky's book, write code, still have access to all JVM libraries and a lot less brain damage. There are people that try to write worse Haskell in everything from Perl to Kotlin too. The reputation is overblown and has little to do with the actual language.
- vips7L 7y ago
  They also gloss over the huge productivity killers that are sbt and scalac. Compile times are almost as bad as C++ where I work. Sbt will be "Done compiling." and then hang for 15-20 minutes.
julienfr112 7y ago
Yeah the team is productive. But only in the 20% left for real work between the interminable arguing over monads or circe or play or sbt or whatever.
- kod 7y ago
  Doing real work in Scala for a decade. Never argued about any of that.

by kod 7y ago

s_Hogg 7y ago

> Scala is still the least-bad option for a JVM language. Source, please? > Anyone who can't be productive in Scala (not "better java", not "worse haskell", Scala) isn't someone you want on your team anyway. Why is that?

royjacobs 7y ago

I would argue that in a sufficiently large organization you're better off using plain Java or perhaps Kotlin. The latter hits the sweet spot between 'expressive' and 'unreadable' whereas Scala can miss the mark. I'm sure if you are very disciplined when writing Scala then this will not happen, etc etc. But the fact that people need to decide upfront which parts of Scala to use and which ones to avoid seem like red flags to me (and in fact were red flags, in my experience).

apta 7y ago

With Java getting value types, record types, and pattern matching it will end up giving all the other JVM languages a run for their money. Today, Kotlin is much more approachable than Scala, not to mention better tooling. Once Java catches up though, it will be a different story.

mbo 7y ago
When are higher-kinded types roadmapped for Java?
- apta 7y ago
  I'm not aware that they are. It's a nice feature, but it might introduce unnecessary indirection is used inappropriately, that and the vast majority of languages get by without it without any significant hindrance.
vips7L 7y ago
Lots of good things coming for the jdk. I'm extremely looking for project loom (fibers) to land. I expect kotlin to fall off everywhere except android once loom and the rest of project amber land.

nemothekid 7y ago

>Anyone who can't be productive in Scala (not "better java", not "worse haskell", Scala) isn't someone you want on your team anyway. It’s funny that you gloss over one the big productivity issues with Scala. Somehow everyone who joins your team should be acutely aware of your flavor of Scala. If the community decided if wanted to be a better java or a worse Haskell then I bet more people would be productive in Scala

kod 7y ago
It's not "my" flavor of Scala, it's what it's designed for. It's a pragmatic, ML family language. Read Odersky's book, write code, still have access to all JVM libraries and a lot less brain damage. There are people that try to write worse Haskell in everything from Perl to Kotlin too. The reputation is overblown and has little to do with the actual language.
vips7L 7y ago
They also gloss over the huge productivity killers that are sbt and scalac. Compile times are almost as bad as C++ where I work. Sbt will be "Done compiling." and then hang for 15-20 minutes.

julienfr112 7y ago

Yeah the team is productive. But only in the 20% left for real work between the interminable arguing over monads or circe or play or sbt or whatever.

kod 7y ago
Doing real work in Scala for a decade. Never argued about any of that.