21 ms·

Pricing niche products

• phaus 7y ago
  I have a $600+ keyboard so I'm a part of this hobby. However, only a part of this can be explained by the expense of manufacturing at a small scale. The hobby fully embraces the drawbacks of the small scale and intentionally does nothing to try to improve it because the exclusivity drives prices up to an insane point. A typical group buy for a popular case sells out in minutes or days time after time. Clearly some of the exclusivity is artificial. An aluminum case that costs $300 is often 99% as nice as one for $1000. There are designers lauded as geniuses that make cases that are almost identical to generic ones. It might have some kind of logo or inlay or a different color of anodized aluminum. Aftermarket they'll be worth insane amounts of money. And with keycaps pretty much the entire thing is artificial exclusivity. $300-400 aftermarket for a set of keycaps is not unheard of. There's nothing wrong with any of this, but as a happy participant I have to say the diminishing returns show up hard and fast in this hobby. Its all about fashion. My $60 GMMK, with 20 minutes of easy modifications, a $30 set of keycaps, and a $90 set of healios switches was the smoothest linear keyboard I've ever used. If you want clicky, the same setup with a $30 set of Box Jade switches will get most people the best keyboard they've ever used. Mx blues feel like rubber domes afterwards. Interesfing article that talks about some of this. I recommend reading it. Why did I pay $600+? I wanted an Ergodox split keyboard with helios switches + backlighting, to see if my wrists would feel better, and I didn't think I was ready to build a kit that required soldering. My Keycaps cost 170 of that. They are modelled after the Space Cadet keyboard from an old LISP Machine. This was uneccessary obviously but I liked them.
  • ghaff 7y ago
    >the diminishing returns show up hard and fast in this hobby. Of course that's true with lots of things. Cameras, audio equipment, video gear. Whenever I go into B&H Photo in NYC I'm always struck by how quickly the prices go up as you transition from pretty serviceable amateur gear to the pro stuff.
    • phaus 7y ago
      Yea, not a photography guy but I have friends that are and its a bottomless rabbit hole of cool shit to spend money on.
    • flmontpetit 7y ago
      Seems less like diminishing returns and more like mass hysteria at this point. The only people I personally know of who are as detached from the rest of the market are those guys who collect Telecasters.
      • TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
        Also vintage synthesizer collectors - although that market tops out around $150k, which is cheap compared to the most expensive one-off Steinway Grand piano models, which go for between $1m and $2m. And high end audio - turntables for $650k, etc.
        • flmontpetit 7y ago
          I think there's a difference between "enthusiast market segment" and "investment commidities". Also even Yamaha grand pianos aren't typically purchased by individuals. More like venues, etc. AFAIK most of those prestigious Steinway models wind up in the lobbies of luxury hotels. Point is those things justify their prices in a way that $1500 keyboards don't. But honestly I'm being cynical for no reason here. Those guy can spend money on whatever makes them happy. I am in no place to judge.
    • CptFribble 7y ago
      Depending on what you do with the camera, it's actually worth it though - at least for the initial amateur->pro jump. Better/faster autofocus (usually), fully weather-sealed body (!), larger sensor (depending on what you need), dual-native ISO, etc etc Plus other features that are technically still convenience, but can matter a great deal to a pro. - Example1: Panasonic G85 has a couple reconfigurable buttons, but on the GH5 nearly every physical button can be configured to whatever setting you want. - Example2: Dual memory-card slots for instant backups (some prosumer cameras only have 1 slot) However, I agree that many salespeople will try to sell pro gear to a hobbyist when they really don't need it.
  • C1sc0cat 7y ago
    That reminds me I must get the adaptor for my vintage type M (IBM XT) brought /built. I do have a soft spot for the Vt100
  • PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    > There's nothing wrong with any of this There isn't? Deliberately understocking so that some of your users miss out and the rest have to pay more seems like it's all bad for the users, even if it's making money for somebody.
    • dwoozle 7y ago
      A vendor doesn’t have to offer the socially optimal package. Other vendors can fill in other gaps.
      • PhasmaFelis 7y ago
        The GP said: > The hobby intentionally does nothing to try to improve [the drawbacks of the small scale] because the exclusivity drives prices up to an insane point. [...] There is nothing wrong with any of this. If it's still worth it for you, that's fine. Or if you figure that selling a few blinged-out "designer" models at ultra-premium prices helps support the main product, or if you don't care either way because you don't buy the top models, or you admire the designer's business savvy, or any other thoughtful reason that hasn't occurred to me, that's all fine. But describing that situation I quoted above, and saying "there is nothing wrong with this," is pretty debatable! And I'm getting downvote-bombed for politely debating it. Hacker News is weird sometimes.
        • balfirevic 7y ago
          > But describing that situation I quoted above, and saying "there is nothing wrong with this," is pretty debatable! "There is nothing wrong with this" in contexts like these usually means "nothing morally wrong".
          • pbhjpbhj 7y ago
            Seems there's a pretty obvious argument why artificial scarcity purely for financial gain is wrong, assuming the goods provide a benefit of some kind (and if they don't then there are ready arguments not to sell them at all).
  • wastedhours 7y ago
    Am not in that league, my main board is a Ducky Shine 3 TKL, but even dabbling into that world, I bought the Cities collection of spacebars for $50. I find the niche fascinating, and regularly think about selling keycaps as a sideline - definitely agree with the notion that a lot of the designs people crave are rather quite simple. Or very similar to off the shelf ones. Fashion is the interesting one, since the keyboard is one of the main interaction points for pretty much all knowledge workers today, it'll only continue to grow as a market (which might lead to more downmarket options?)
    • phaus 7y ago
      I think we'll see it grow. I started collecting old and new fountain pens a long time ago before it started to become a thing again. I've slowly watched that turn into a decently sized niche hobby. There are thousands of quality modern options available immediately. Its in a far more advanced state than the keyboard community, but I'm sure we'll get there.
  • mamurphy 7y ago
    What keycaps do you recommend, generally? Have you ever tried the "Falcon" Z-77 keyboard? It's been rebranded/knocked off by several Chinese manufacturers (different brands all have the same distinct falcon logo in the top middle of the keyboard) and is available on Amazon for around $30. I bought one (the HUO JI version) after encountering several reviews from folks saying it compared favorably with their $100+ boards. I'm quite happy with it, and it's hard to have any idea if I'm missing out on anything and, if so, what I'm missing out on.
    • phaus 7y ago
      There are different shaped keycaps, like different profiles. I don't really understand that yet, I have some made specifically for an ergodox style layout, so they probably have slight differences. I'll give a few recommendations, cheap and expensive. First thing you should know is most of the expensive sets are abs, but abs eventually gets shiny and PBT does not. The material itself doesn't really dictate the quality beyond that. Some people prefer the naturally more textured feel of PBT and some people love the smoothness of ABS. I can tell my GMK abs keycaps that I spent $170 for are more lovingly crafted than my $30 PBT pudding caps or my other set of white backlit caps that cost around $40, but when typing on them I honestly couldn't say I have a preference. Some people find no-name chinese sets that are made of good, thick plastic that are almost comparable to more expensive sets. Generally thicker keycaps are better made. In general though, for the real high end stuff, a company called signature plastics and another one called GMK make most of the sets. They are about $100-200 in group buys. They sell small run sets on a bunch of different websites. The way you buy them is basically keep watching /r/mechanicalkeyboards or /r/mechmarket for a while until there's a group buy for one you like, then you put up money. There are some of these sets readily available on a bunch of different vendor sites, but they change all the time because of the limited nature. Basically what you are paying for is double-shot abs or whatever other plastic they use, basically there's an inner layer and outer-layer melted together in a way where for the inner color only the character shows through to the top. It makes the keys last pretty much forever without the character wearing off (contrast this with my 2016 alienware where the WASD started wearing off in 2 weeks). There are cheaper sets that are double shot, but there are less options for color and there's a small difference in the fit and finish. You can get a decent set of backlit keys for about $30. You can get a slightly better set for $40-60, and then there's the $100-200 sets that while, aren't a life changing experience to type on, have more options for how they look and they do have a high level of craftmanship that you can really only notice when you are inspecting the inside/outside of the key before you install it. Some people obsess about the perfect accuracy and design of the individual characters on the keys, but I don't find that to be a big deal, but the more expensive sets do a better job of this. As to what you are missing out on? Well, my first kit was a solid aluminum case and I filled it with a layer of some rubbery heavy stuff that I can't recall the name of, but the end result was a keyboard that's like 5-6 LB and it feels absolutely solid and absolutely amazing to type on. It was about $300 with a cheap set of keycaps. My newer more expensive one has a plastic case but I bought it for ergonomic reasons. Plastic cases can be very high quality though (this one is) and feel very good. However, if they made a version of this out of a solid block of aluminum like they do with more traditional keyboards, I would like to get one because there's still a noticeable difference in solidity and quality. This is one of the cheap sets I liked. Its sold through but it pops up every once in a while, if you don't want to wait I think amazon has an almost identical set that could very well have even been made in the same factory for a different brand: https://drop.com/buy/pudding-pbt-doubleshot-keycap-set https://drop.com/buy/pudding-pbt-doubleshot-keycap-set Here's another set I got that I really liked. The bottom edges felt a little rough, but once they were on the keyboard they were amazing: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0779TNTVY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0779TNTVY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... I encourage you to check out the mechanical keyboards subreddit's sidebar, there's a ton of information for helping people pick stuff out, that's how I got into it.
  • iikoolpp 7y ago
    Whereas I own a £1 keyboard and I prefer it vastly more than any mechanical KB I had before.
    • katet 7y ago
      Just in case this strikes anyone as dismissive, I too sincerely miss the old, beige keyboards that used to come with things like the old IBM, Tiny, MiTac, and Amiga brands I scavenged as a teenager. And those things were _robust_ - you could strip them down, soak them in detergent overnight, and have them good as new the next day without key caps falling off or the space bar sticking.
      • squeaky-clean 7y ago
        Those old keyboards were mechanical though weren't they? Lots of people love the old IBM ones, and they can't be found for just one euro online.
        • kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
          There are lots of non-model-M IBM keyboards that aren't in any demand while still being great to type on.
        • phaus 7y ago
          Yes. They used buckling spring switches. Different from Cherry MX's. I think there are modern versions but IMO the way to go is what you suggested, keeping an eye out for a good deal on a real vintage one.
      • pilsetnieks 7y ago
        Those keyboard enthusiasts are in fact obsessing about the very same keyboards you mention, like the IBM Model M. One of those in good condition can be sold for quite a bit of money.
        • katet 7y ago
  • EDevil 7y ago
    Are those box jade switches some kind of special version? I can't find them here: https://www.pcgamingrace.com/products/kailh-mx-switches https://www.pcgamingrace.com/products/kailh-mx-switches
    • Seich 7y ago
      You can try here https://novelkeys.xyz/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-clicks?variant=3747938238504 https://novelkeys.xyz/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-c...
      • reaperducer 7y ago
        These I find humorous. https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/keycaps/products/oopskey-artisan-keycaps https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/keycaps/products/oopskey-a... If only they had "RUB" or "RUBOUT" written on them like the old timey keyboards did.
    • phaus 7y ago
      amazon has them too but I don't want to keep posting links to stores like I have been because I don't know if it violates the rules and I'm certainly not trying to sell anything. search box jade switches and you should get something.
  • MadWombat 7y ago
    God, and here I was, thinking my Azio Mk Retro was extravagant :)
  • divbyzer0 7y ago
    @phaus any improvement to your wrists with the Ergodox?
    • phaus 7y ago
      yes but its only been a couple months with that setup, I think having the ability to tilt each half so the inner side is higher than the outer side has helped my right wrist's tendonitis, but it could be because the tilting forces me to keep my hands off the desk to reach the keys, which is the supposedly "right" way to type, wrist rests help some people but you're still supposedly putting stress on your joints when rested. If I had the discipline to keep my hands up with a regular keyboard I might have the same results. Another thing to keep in mind is that it will take longer to tell for sure my wrist pain comes and goes.
      • RaceWon 7y ago
        > outer side has helped my right wrist's tendonitis, I don't have tendonitis, however last week I was typing with the top of the keyboard much lower than the bottom and there was a feeling of relief in my hands. Just putting this out there.
  • pclark 7y ago
    the boards and caps are nothing compared to artisan keycaps. i have traded countless things to acquire keycaps that would sell for $250+ each. one keycap! brobot caps are especially rare and i frequently see people buying them for $500 each i actually think artisans make sense to be so expensive since there is a level of artistry and rarity that most boards do not have. some of the rare korean boards are super rare too though and easily sell for $1000. (sent from a Lyn Whale with GMK Olivia!)
    • Mtinie 7y ago
      You've got me curious, what makes a particular keycap sell the prices you quote? I can understand how valuation tied to rarity, but people paying ~$500 for a single cap implies that there's significantly more to it than scarcity. I know that if I try to search for an answer I'll get a bunch of cruft given my lack of knowledge of what question to even ask, so I'm hoping you can provide some background for a n00b :) Thank you in advance!
      • phaus 7y ago
        Artisan caps are a whole different thing. Basically the idea is that you get a fancy looking keycap that might be a little sculpture cast in a clear resin or even something 3d like a metal fist of thanos, and you replace 1 or 2 keys on your keyboard with it like an accent decoration. Frequently people do it with the escape key and the space bar. They sell out fast and for certain designers I've seen the prices go up from $70 during the group buy to hundreds. Here's one I wish I got so I could keep and use it. I missed out though and I refuse to pay $400 for a space bar. They are legitimately a work of art though. https://www.jellykey.com/wp-content/uploads//Jelly-Key-spacebar-enter-shift-artisan-keycaps-Zen-Pond-20.jpg https://www.jellykey.com/wp-content/uploads//Jelly-Key-space... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jelly-Key-Zen-Pond-Koi-Spacebar-Keycap-6-25u-SA-Profile-Scarlet-Dynasty-New/223609661513?hash=item34102ca849:g:VYkAAOSwgO9dRIFs https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jelly-Key-Zen-Pond-Koi-Spacebar-Key...
      • dwoozle 7y ago
        It’s basically a piece of art. If you want to sell it to a private equity banker you put it in a gilt frame. If you want to sell it to a Facebook machine learning engineer you put it in a space bar form factor.
  • hprotagonist 7y ago
    > My Keycaps cost 170 of that. They are modelled after the Space Cadet keyboard from an old LISP Machine. This was uneccessary obviously but I liked them. and now provide a link, please :)
    • phaus 7y ago
      My setup is the white version of this with the tenting kit but no wrist-guards (don't need them when its tented). https://imgur.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards/BjycwBN https://imgur.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards/BjycwBN Here's the link to the keycaps alone with better pics. Unfortunately only available aftermarket now. https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-oblotzky-gmk-space-cadet-keycap-set https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-oblotzky-gmk-space-cadet-key... And here's the original: https://www.rcsri.org/collection/symbolics-keyboards/symbolics-keyboard-1.jpg https://www.rcsri.org/collection/symbolics-keyboards/symboli... There's a bunch of extra function keys that extend the modern standard of CTRL-ALT-DELETE and supposedly enabled 8k command combinations that were useful for lisp machines. However, the later versions of them didn't have the same color scheme and dropped many of the additional keys for simplicity.
      • hprotagonist 7y ago
        excellent, thanks. I have a deep affection for the buckyboard, so i might have a look to see if can score a set to further annoy my labmates.
        • phaus 7y ago
          there will probably be another edition eventually but as someone still somewhat noobish to this hobby i've heard lots of people are ok waiting a year or two for a new group buy to start for a specific set. If you want one now keep searching /r/mechmarket for "space cadet" and make sure you look into the different kinds of sets. Mine was $170 with shipping from europe, but there are less keys on my ergodox keyboard and the set was made specifically for them. A full set is probably somewhere between $200-300. I think I've seen them for the low end of that but I'm not sure. If you don't have to have something identical, there's an SA profile set for $100 that's just blue/gray without the special characters you see in the photos. You'd have to do some googling to make sure the sa profile fits on your keyboard though. Usually they will but sometimes people have issues so I'd research: This is a chinese site, but very reputable. There are other places that stock the same set: https://kbdfans.com/products/bfcmmaxkey-blue-gray-sa-keycaps-set?_pos=1&_sid=b53063221&_ss=r https://kbdfans.com/products/bfcmmaxkey-blue-gray-sa-keycaps...
  • DennisP 7y ago
    I thought I was a keyboard buff with my Cherry Reds and Browns. I'd never even heard of Healios or Box Jade.
    • phaus 7y ago
      Some people still prefer blues, I might be slightly exaggerating. Not everyone wants a key as hard to press as a box jade but I love them. When they did a survey of /r/mechanicalkeyboards the most common favorite is Brown, Blue was up there too. /r/mechanicalkeyboards and /r/mechmarket area great place to go to further investigate the hobby. Be warned I can't be held responsible for anyone's wallet.
      • cr0sh 7y ago
        Are there any switches that come close to the feel and sound of buckling spring (aka Model M) switches? I haven't been able to find anything like that; even the stiffest and clickiest and tactilest cherry key switches I've played with don't come close to the feel. I'm not sure where Unicomp gets theirs - likely make them in-house would be my guess. I currently own two original Model M keyboards, and one Unicomp Classic USB (it was given to me as part of my severance package from a former employer because nobody else wanted it after they downsized me - so they stuck it in the box of my things they shipped back to me). But I can't find keycaps for any of those that are "all black" (which I'd like for my Unicomp - which is a black case design - but greyish keycaps). So a "standard" switch, with keycaps - but with the same feel, etc as an original buckling spring switch - that's what I'm looking for (under-key blue glow to match my case effects would also be a nice thing - but baby steps).
        • phaus 7y ago
          I think there may be modern buckling spring key switches. Most modern mechanical switches have their own sound. MX Blues and knockoffs sound like MX Blues, the Box Jades I described have a really really nice clicky noise and IMO the best tactile clicking feeling. You could try them next to a buckling spring keyboard and you may or may not like the buckling spring feeling and sound better. I've used both vintage buckling springs and box jades and I like Box Jades better. They sell switch testers with lots of different switches on them, if you want something really obscure like a modern buckling spring you might have to buy a few of the switches separately, but then you could test them alongside the others.
  • xenihn 7y ago
    Which Healios switches did you get? I see Halo Clear 70, Halo clear 90, Halo True 70, Halo True 90, etc.. on Massdrop.
    • phaus 7y ago
      that's different. Those are nice but there's a company called ZealPC that makes a few different models of switches. They don't have to be purchased from his site directly, there are a few other places that have them. Healios is the name for their silenced linear switch. Its the quietest and smoothest linear switch I've ever tried. They are about $1.50 a switch though, mx's are like a quarter and Box Jades are about 35 cents. IMO they are worth it but some people try MX silenced reds and like them better at a fraction of the cost. I bought a switch tester with 25 different switches that I thought I might like and then used it to decide what to get. Healios is sold out on the company site right now but the 67g version of these (roselios) is identical IIRC. I have a mix of both on my keyboard. These were just done with a different color plastic stem for a charity event: https://zealpc.net/collections/switches/products/roselios_sakurios https://zealpc.net/collections/switches/products/roselios_sa... There are other places that likely have healios in stock.
  • fcoury 7y ago
    I'm on the hobby as well and I agree that the article reflects what we're seeing as of today, and even though I don't agree with the Vickrey auction from a buyer perspective, I do agree it's amazing for sellers since what they found is that a few people are really willing to go above and beyond in terms of money for a kit. Shameless plug: I have a YouTube channel exclusively for the hobby - https://www.youtube.com/MrKeebs https://www.youtube.com/MrKeebs
  • jagger27 7y ago
    It's totally reasonable and possible to get a beautiful aluminum case for well under $200. I was able to get a "b-stock" Tofu HHKB[1] from KBDFans for less than $100. My very plain GMK White-on-Black keycaps cost more than that. 1: https://jagger.co/downloads/tofu-hhkb.jpeg https://jagger.co/downloads/tofu-hhkb.jpeg
  • ccp22 7y ago
    > to see if my wrists would feel better Does it work? On a side note, I wish I could buy a split keyboard for $30. Are they much harder to produce?
    • phaus 7y ago
      I believe some of Microsoft's Ergonomic keyboards are highly regarded. I didn't try any of them. Not mechanical but I hear good things. Some of them seem to have a similar tilt to mine. Its not adjustable though and the ergodox folks say you should adjust regularly (I really don't though and I imagine most people don't). The other big difference is that while the keyboard is split, it is still one piece whereas mine is actually split. And finally, the ergodox-ez is ortholinear, so instead of key rows that are staggered, the rows of keys are mostly straight vertically, which is supposedly more natural. At $40ish dollars, it might be worth trying one of the microsoft options. My keyboard could have been purchased for about $300 without backlighting. It comes with a bunch of different options for the switch, I just swapped mine out (the sockets are hot-swappable so no soldering). I paid more for backlighting because its also got up to 32 programmable layers and you can assign a different color so you know what layer you're on. There are some slightly cheaper mechanical options. There's a recommendation threat / question thread in /r/mechanicalkeyboards on alternating days where people might be able to help you find something cheaper. I don't know everything so I might be missing a great option for you that doesn't cost a fortune. One last note, they are not much harder to produce, its just that no one is doing it at scale yet. They are still trying to find the perfect design. Ergodox is one version, there are lots of other split keyboards like iris, artreus62, etc. I think the ergodox is pretty good, but people with small hands might not be able to hit all of the buttons. There are 6 buttons per thumb. Honestly, if I try to use any but the bottom 3 per thumb I have to move my hands significantly, but I assign those to stuff I don't do often. There are other people making smaller keysets, or changing the position/layout to optimize for their use case. If anything ever definitively catches on we might see a mass produced version.
    • Klathmon 7y ago
      I use split keyboards, and for me I can't go back. I'm able to reposition them so that I sit up straight and no longer have my wrists cocked at a weird angle. The ability to move them throughout the day means I can change where each half is and how angled they are depending on how i'm sitting (leaning back i'll move them more parallel, sitting forward i'll angle them more "outward", etc...) I also "tent" my split keyboards, so they are at like a 15 degree angle with the inside being the "tallest". That alone have stopped the carpel tunnel pain I was starting to get while using "traditional keyboards". But aside from that, the crazier "custom built" keyboards tend to run firmware that allows pretty insane customization to the keyboards which I genuinely can't see myself ever going back. Things like being able to make a dedicated key to commit my work in my editor, what I call "physical bookmarks" which are keybindings that will open websites or apps on my PC, and being able to move around the keys and add layers for various things (my left-alt key acts as left-alt when held down, but presses escape when tapped). It does come with it's drawbacks though. I have a hard time transitioning back to a normal qwerty keyboard now, and that means I take my split keyboard with me when I travel if I'm expecting to use the laptop significantly. It's not that I can't, but that my muscle memory is really ingrained now and I end up making a lot of mistakes. $30 is going to be really hard to find a split keyboard for, but if you are willing to get your hands dirty and do some soldering and flashing of components, you can pickup the parts for a "DIY" keyboard kit for probably around $100 if you do your homework. Something like [1] is about $20 for the PCBs and diodes, $20 for the mounting plates, and then you'd need to find some cheap-er switches and keycaps as well as 2 ~$9 controller chips. It's not off-the-shelf for that cheap, but it's doable. [1] https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard?variant=8034004860958 https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keybo...
  • LyndsySimon 7y ago
    > My $60 GMMK, with 20 minutes of easy modifications, a $30 set of keycaps, and a $90 set of healios switches was the smoothest linear keyboard I've ever used. Wow. Thank you. I flirted with the "mech" community for a while a couple of years ago, and ended up with two boards: A KBParadise V60 with Gateron Browns that I use as my primary keyboard for my desktop. That's mostly a gaming machine for me, but I do code on it quite a bit. A bluetooth keyboard with low-profile Gateron Blues that I used with my iPad 6th Gen for coding (I use Blink to SSH/MOSH into a VM). That was a good keyboard but the feet broke off, then I upgraded to an iPad Pro and the Apple keyboard cover. It was collecting dust, so I gave it to my 11-year-old. The GMMK looks like exactly what I was really looking for, for desktop use. I've got some research to do :)
    • idealstingray 7y ago
      By way of warning, GMMK uses a proprietary keyboard layout editor that only works on Windows (I tried running it in WINE and got nowhere). If editing your keyboard layout in firmware is important to you, I would recommend the Massdrop CTRL (TKL size) or ALT (67-key), which are similar keyboards with hot-swappable switches that run QMK firmware. (In addition to changing the backlighting colors and basic remappings like capslock to escape, QMK lets you do interesting things like add layers, or have a key behave one way when tapped and another way when held down and used as a modifier.) But if you can take care of all your layout needs in software, the GMMK is a great keyboard.
      • LyndsySimon 7y ago
        Ah, then I'm glad I didn't order yet! I run Windows 10 on my desktop at home when it's in "gaming rig" mode, but ArchLinux when I'm hacking on something. I have Manjaro on my personal laptop and macOS on my work laptop. Firmware mapping is definitely a requirement for me. In fact, my experience is that what firmware a keyboard uses isn't always clear. My KBParadise V60 is almost perfect for me. I'd like a numpad sometimes, but I can always get an external one. The bigger problem is that keymapping can only be done through some DIP switches on the bottom or via flashing the firmware. The firmware isn't open source and is fairly obfuscated from what digging around I've done on it. the arrow keys are mapped to a cross arrangement on the right side of the keyboard, and I'd much prefer to use hjkl. I've not found a reasonable way to do it on that keyboard that doesn't require configuring it on every device I use.
  • radus 7y ago
    Details on the 20 minutes of easy mods?
    • mech422 7y ago
      I'm guessing by the '20 minutes' part they're referring to moding the stabilizers: https://youtu.be/cD5Zj-ZgMLA https://youtu.be/cD5Zj-ZgMLA Not hard to do, and it changes the sound/feel of them in a way a lot of people appreciate. P.S. I second the GMMK ( https://www.pcgamingrace.com/products/gmmk-full-brown-switch https://www.pcgamingrace.com/products/gmmk-full-brown-switch ) as a good way to try out switches and keycaps. The board is fairly cheap, nicely built, and has hot-swap switches that allow you to try various switches without soldering...
      • radus 7y ago
        Thank you!
    • phaus 7y ago
      Sure, I'll explain and link. It sounds like a lot but I am not a particularly handy person and I did it right the first try. I just had to use a brush to remove a little excess lubricant on one of the stabilizers because it was sticky. On my GMMK keyboard where I was going for silence, the different before and after the stabilizer mods were incredible. It sounded cheap and rattled a lot, even though the keys still felt good. Afterwards it was near-perfect. There are two primary things that make noise. Some noises are good and some are bad. If your keyboard makes rattling noises when you type, that's considered a bad noise and likely caused by stabilizers. Stabilizers the the extra things you see under the larger keys on a keyboard like the spacebar and shift. Different keyboards have different numbers of them. The other thing that makes the noises are the switches. Some people want clicky noises, some people want silence. The case and the keycaps can alter the way your switches sound too. If you want it quieter there's some rubbery sound-dampening material you can buy to line your case with, some people use other materials. Basically the more empty space there is in your case the more potential for noise. So if you want a silent keyboard, you use that lining material, you use linear switches that are designed to be silent, or you buy regular linear switches and silence them yourself using little rubber rings. Definitely mod the stabiliizers by taking them apart, cutting these extra little plastic feet off like the linked article, optionally placing a small piece of cloth bandaid under it, and relubricating it after wiping the original lubricant off. Some people go so far as to open and lube the switches, but that's not a 20 minute job. Everything else I described is fairly quick, but it will probably take more like an hour the first time you do it. Its easy though. As a further step, some people buy better stabilizers, authentic GMK stabilizers that screw into the circuit board. However, when I modded my GMMK I used the stock ones. Some people don't like them but it seemed decent. My space bar was kind of noisy but I skipped the bandaid mod for this which would have likely helped, otherwise it was super quiet. If you want a clicky keyboard, you buy clicky switches. You still want to get rid of the rattle noises so you will still need to clip, lube, and optionally do the bandaid mod for your stabilizers, upgrading to better stabilizers if you want to do it. Lining the case is more optional. If you do want to line the case, its always a good idea to research whether there's even enough room in your specific case to do it. I did not try it with my GMMK. Link to stabilizer and band-aid mods. https://topclack.com/textclack/2018/4/29/the-stab-lab-a-stabilizer-modification-guide-by-quakemz https://topclack.com/textclack/2018/4/29/the-stab-lab-a-stab... There are some people that get into extreme keyboard modding. Some people try to stick little pieces of foam in the hollow parts under-neath the keycaps to minimize noise, I haven't gone that far. Here's an example of what's possible to with a little bit of learning. Note that this guy is one of the best and he may have also used other techniques, there's probably a full stream of him making this keyboard or one similar somewhere online. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tfYxDhyyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tfYxDhyyc Here's another one that ended up pretty good. I think he describes his process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3-9ttpaU0E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3-9ttpaU0E
  • thom_nic 7y ago
    This sounds a bit like the custom bicycle frame builder phenomenon as well. Well-known builders/shops can have years-long wait lists and their builds will go for 2x, 5x or 10x the cost of a top of the line mainstream model - 10s of thousands of $$. Granted each one is built by hand so the artisanal craft is easy to appreciate. But exclusivity is there, because these shops are building less than a dozen bikes per year. If you got your hands on one, wow it will turn heads when you roll up to the bier garden at the CX race.
• Dude2029 7y ago
  You always end up buying more than one, despite their extreme durability.
  • Filligree 7y ago
    Once you start looking at keyboards, you end up searching for the perfect one. I ended up with three...
    • ctack 7y ago
      This appeared on Reddit after I brought my first one. And while I had a good chuckle at myself, I haven't purchased another one in the year or so that has since passed. https://pics.me.me/see-a-small-apartment-i-see-you-alone-furtune-34128498.png https://pics.me.me/see-a-small-apartment-i-see-you-alone-fur...
  • C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Its the Bike Number Rule: The correct number of bikes to own is n+1 .While the minimum number of bikes one should own is three, the correct number is n+1 , where n is the number of bikes currently owned.
    • papreclip 7y ago
      I was just thinking this fad reminds me of the fixie fad from a few years back.
      • C1sc0cat 7y ago
        At least you don't have to wear lycra to use them - unless you want to :-)
    • Tepix 7y ago
      Same with camera lenses, windsurfing sails, etc.
• ghaff 7y ago
  With respect to the high price, it seems pretty simple really. Some people have a fair bit of money that they're willing to spend on their enthusiasms. This wouldn't even be a notable question if, instead of mechanical keyboards, we were talking "designer" handbags, shoes, custom-made suits, etc. The auction question is more interesting. Auctions are well accepted when there's clear scarcity or uniqueness in what's being sold. With manufactured good, we at least harbor illusions that there's some relationship with cost. But for niche items, that's not really true of course.
  • closetohome 7y ago
    Well I guess that's sort of the answer to the author's question about why auctions aren't used more often. The same way we (most of us anyway) wouldn't trust a company that begins with a crowdfunding campaign, selling your items at auction makes it look like you've done no market research and have no business plan. And I'm reluctant to back a company without business sense or a plan.
    • ghaff 7y ago
      >I'm reluctant to back a company without business sense or a plan. Depends on what I'm buying really. I don't really care if an artist has a business plan. Indeed, I figure they probably don't or they wouldn't be an artist. But a manufactured good that I might expect support or replacement for defects for? Sure. By and large, I don't want an artisan laptop.
• equalunique 7y ago
  It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old limitations from the days of the typewriter. Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonomic designs should be the forefront of the movement. All this focus on outdated designs makes the community "accessible" but also holds people back. The emergence of row-staggered 40% boards is a particular disappointing anachronism. Don't think ortholinear boards can compete? OLKB boards usually sell several thousand every time a group buy runs, and the OLKB main store has a several-month long wait list. People who buy keycaps for these can end up spending $140 for 140 keycaps, 48 of which they'll ever even use... $200 minimum if they don't want Qwerty. The demand is there. People dream about that old GITS typing scene, but we'll never achieve it when our instagram influencers are always hyping this kind of stuff. Japan at least has the right focus - Corne, Helidox, Lily58, Biacco42, and NumAtreus were all created in the past couple of years, with countless more coming.
  • ghaff 7y ago
    >Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonimic designs should be the forefront of the movement. Ehh. There are a lot of good reasons to have layouts that are fairly common across all the equipment you'll use. From what I've seen, while there may be some advantages to different layouts and configurations, very few things are so compelling as to warrant a wholesale change outside of some niches like court stenographers for which specialized training is justified.
    • css 7y ago
      Anecdotally, I tried an orthogonal layout and loved it, but after a few weeks my productivity when using coworkers' computers and the keyboard built into my laptop dropped so far because I started to lose the ability to type on QWERTY. I guess I could carry around a keyboard and cable everywhere but that seems suboptimal.
    • yummypaint 7y ago
      I don't think consistency is an issue unless other people need to use the unusual equipment. For example I think most people who use dvorak on their personal system have no trouble at all switching back to qwerty as needed, at least that has been my experience.
• Altheasy 7y ago
  There will be always stupid person who would waste 1668$ on this bullshit.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Do you think every part of your spending is rational?
  • C1sc0cat 7y ago
    And there will be the unlucky (stupid) person that ends up with RSI at 35
    • throwpupper 7y ago
      It's funny that most of these super hyped up mechanical keyboards still use traditional staggered non-split layout that will still contribute to developing RSI sooner or later. I feel bad for the shoulders and hands of all those geeks using their tiny $600 cramped keyboards. Any keyboard that does not separate into two independent halves (like ErgoDox or Matias ErgoPro) is horrible for posture and ergonomics.
      • cestith 7y ago
        https://shop.keyboard.io/products/model-01-keyboard https://shop.keyboard.io/products/model-01-keyboard is my keyboard of choice for most tasks, and certainly for typing. It's both split and ortholinear. It uses Mathias Quiet Click switches and custom-formed keycaps for the design.
    • anonuser123456 7y ago
      There is no evidence for a causal relationship between keyboard usage and RSI.
      • 7y ago
• overthemoon 7y ago
  What, really, are the benefits? I used a friend's mechanical keyboard and it felt nice. Is that it? Is it necessary to spend 100s to get a good one? The whole thing seems insane to me. No judgement, I spend money on other stuff, it just doesn't make sense to me personally. I typed this on a mac keyboard people seem to hate, so maybe it's Stockholm syndrome.
  • petepete 7y ago
    It's not necessary but as someone who spends several hours per day typing, spending a few hundred pounds on something that's comfortable, accurate and a pleasure to use is worth every penny. It's uncustomised and I use it with a wooden wrist rest, I prefer the no-markings version because I touch type and it looks super-minimal on my desk and nearly symmetrical. I settled on a HHKB. It's just about perfect for me
  • epanchin 7y ago
    I feel the same about your mac - 100s spent unnecessarily. Each to their own!
  • css 7y ago
    You make the keyboard feel the way _you_ want it: https://i.imgur.com/3UoZ6VZ.png https://i.imgur.com/3UoZ6VZ.png It is truly a different (and in my opinion, far superior) experience. If I have to use a tool all day long, why would I not want the best tool?
  • TulliusCicero 7y ago
    You can definitely get decent mechanical keyboards for less than a hundred bucks, though they'll cost more than 'regular' keyboards. This is the one I currently use: https://www.amazon.com/HyperX-Alloy-FPS-Pro-Ultra-Compact/dp/B074F5L8GQ/ https://www.amazon.com/HyperX-Alloy-FPS-Pro-Ultra-Compact/dp... I bought it after I found out that my previous TKL mechanical keyboard didn't work for the new Starcraft hotkey layout I was learning. One or more function keys was not remappable in software.
  • anonuser123456 7y ago
    It's an acquired taste. Your brain can learn to like stuff it's conditioned to. I think a lot of people are enticed by the marketing speak of 'mechanical is better'. They buy one, use it and condition their brain to enjoy it. Just like wine & coffee; if you don't know any better you won't care. This is coming from someone that drinks fancy coffee and owns 2 Kinesis advantage keyboards at 300 bucks each.
• lewisflude 7y ago
  I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg, Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.) It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end. Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking, luxury-priced tools are quite a common category you see in hobbies. The community is nice, and the pursuit of "endgame" continually drives supply, demand and the prices that go along with it up consistently. Next year, I wouldn't be surprised if we see several new $1000+ keyboards playing around with new finishes, materials and designs that cater to the high end of the hobby.
  • kragen 7y ago
    > forged carbon top You can't forge carbon. It's not malleable. It shatters if you try to forge it. Are you making a joke about people being gullible, or are there some exotic solid-state physics involved here that I don't know about? Oh, apparently you mean molded plastic with a chopped carbon-fiber filler? Heh.
    • lewisflude 7y ago
      This is what I'm referring to! Commonly used in luxury cars, I think it looks great! https://carbonfibergear.com/blogs/carbonfiber/what-is-forged-composite-a-new-way-of-using-carbon-fiber https://carbonfibergear.com/blogs/carbonfiber/what-is-forged... And this is the keyboard! https://store.projectkeyboard.com/collections/kepler-fc65/products/kepler-fc65 https://store.projectkeyboard.com/collections/kepler-fc65/pr...
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • pilsetnieks 7y ago
      It's not forged in a forge, it's just called that. It's just molded carbon fiber in resin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_composite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_composite
• Palomides 7y ago
  I think the author underestimates how amateurish many people selling keyboard parts are (i.e. rarely fully or never committed to the work as their employment, and without any experience in sales, manufacturing, marketing, distribution). Optimizing pricing or marketing strategies is not, afaict, deeply considered. Money is consistently left on the table. Look into the madness of first-party 'artisan' keycap sales, for example. To be fair, there's nothing really wrong with this, since it is just a hobby for most people involved, and these sorts of products really often are just making something you want to exist and selling a few more to meet minimum order quantity.
  • _jal 7y ago
    As you say, this is not a massive commodity market. A lot of the folks, if they've been involved for a while, know each other. People gift each other things all the time. It is a market, but a lot of the participants have motivations other than profit-maximization.
• omarhaneef 7y ago
  I hate to nitpick but I assume you want to know: "I cannot understate the benefits of knowing the demand curve." I think you mean "I cannot overstate the benefits of knowing the demand curve." Because you seem to imply that it is a good thing to know the demand curve.
  • 0wis 7y ago
    Why, on a seller standpoint, would it be a bad thing to know the demand curve ? For me it is actionnable marketing data, I cannot see a way in which it’s not good. Even if you not use it directly, it is still data on your customer base that can help you understand them more...
    • minitech 7y ago
      > Why, on a seller standpoint, would it be a bad thing to know the demand curve ? Dunno, but it only makes sense to use “understate” if you think it is a bad thing. The comment is about a wording mistake.
  • lynaghk 7y ago
    I just pushed up a typo fix, thanks for pointing this out!
• ekingr 7y ago
  The Matt Levine-style "People are worried about custom keyboard market liquidity" made me laugh aloud! https://www.bloomberg.com/topics/money-stuff https://www.bloomberg.com/topics/money-stuff
• PeterStuer 7y ago
  Why do exclusive wines fetch several hundred a bottle when in double blind tasting tests oenologists fail to differentiate them from 6€ supermarket wine? Why does the same Malaysia made shirt go up in price 50x if it gets a top brand label attached a opposed to a cheap generic brand one?
  • jhrmnn 7y ago
    Because the price is not related to functional utility. Auctions do not remove that, btw. See art market.
  • flr03 7y ago
    I doubt what you say about wine. Wine tasting is extremely complex and some experts might not be as near as good as they think they are. But an expensive aged Bordeaux will not taste like a cheap random 6€ supermarket bottle. Also, taste is just one criteria on the price, rarity plays a big part (some vineyards are small, some years the production is smaller), the wine ageing potential is another criteria etc.
    • PeterStuer 7y ago
      Some references: "Expensive and inexpensive wines taste the same, research shows" https://phys.org/news/2011-04-expensive-inexpensive-wines.html https://phys.org/news/2011-04-expensive-inexpensive-wines.ht... "The Color of Odors" (add red food coloring to a white wine and tasters think it is a red wine) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11712849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11712849 "Expensive wine and cheap plonk taste the same to most people" https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/apr/14/expensive-wine-cheap-plonk-taste https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/apr/14/expensive-wi... For those interested there is an actual "Journal of Wine Economics" https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-wine-economics https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-wine-econ...
      • flr03 7y ago
        Thank you for your references, but you are missing the point. Neither of your link actually contradict my statement, if your read the article beyond the click bait. Two of them are about classifying the wine from cheap to expensive, which makes no sense because the price doesn't mean the wine taste better, taste is actually subjective first of all and the price does not only depend on the taste anyway as I explained before. Giving a rank to wines or saying that they are different is actually an immense difference in term of logic. The one about colours is not relevant either. It states that people are influenced by the colour and dismiss the odour. Being able to distinguish similar wines in taste is very difficult, regardless of the price and wine colour. It takes an expert to do it because of the shear number of flavours. Even expert can be fouled when wine are close. I wish you had the opportunity to try a nice aged Bordeaux one day you'll get my point. For most people all bread are the same, all rice tastes the same, truth is if you are into this kind of food you are able to tell them apart.
• Tepix 7y ago
  I've followed the Keyboard.io Model 01 crowdfunding campaign (they have the best writeups!) with a lot of interest. I'd probably buy two of their keyboards if they'd offer a German keyboard layout. They are $329 each. For that price, I expect a perfect product. A keyboard that looks equally tempting (but involves a lot of soldering and other work) is the Dactyl keyboard (https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard ).
  • random3 7y ago
    Keyboard.io is one of the nicest pre-built ones. You can fully customize the layout of the Keyboard.io and get blank keycaps https://community.keyboard.io/t/whats-the-latest-info-on-keycap-sets/2445/26 https://community.keyboard.io/t/whats-the-latest-info-on-key... You can get a barely used one for ~250 just watch their forums. I've got one 1-2 months ago after playing with a Kinesis. The keyboard is really nice. The firmware and software ecosystem around it is powerful but still lacks usability (you write plugins in C although they have a really nice graphical interface to configure it). https://github.com/keyboardio/Kaleidoscope https://github.com/keyboardio/Kaleidoscope
  • Tepix 7y ago
    Another interesting keyboard that I forgot to mention is the Waytools Textblade. It's tiny and uses multi-touch, alas it's been in crowdfunding for four years now and it seems it will never be released. I've cancelled my preorder long ago and am waiting for the release of the final product.
• terrellm 7y ago
  I so want to get into mechnical keyboards but most of my work is done on a 2015 MacBook Pro and I'm so efficient with the large trackpad - I rest my palms on the laptop and can reach everything with just a pivot of the wrist. I tried the Magic Trackpad, but I kept having to move my forearm and it just slowed me down too much. What kind of mouse or trackpad is everyone using with these $xxx - $xxxx keyboards?
  • guidoism 7y ago
    I too love the large trackpads. I use an Apple Magic Trackpad 2 in front of my Planck 47-key ortholinear keyboard.
  • miceexpert 7y ago
    > What kind of mouse or trackpad is everyone using with these $xxx - $xxxx keyboards? Mice with holes. Your mouse must have holes. https://i.redd.it/i5s6j18i3hp31.jpg https://i.redd.it/i5s6j18i3hp31.jpg https://i.imgur.com/DSW0lvH.jpg https://i.imgur.com/DSW0lvH.jpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14d68Wgwevs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14d68Wgwevs https://en.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/ https://en.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/
    • pjc50 7y ago
      That looks like a cleaning nightmare waiting to happen.
      • miceexpert 7y ago
        What cleaning? You just buy the new one.
      • knd775 7y ago
        If I need to clean a mouse that I've been using for less than a few years, I am going to reevaluate my personal hygiene. After that, it's going in the trash.
    • cr0sh 7y ago
      None of those look nearly as good as the GITs inspired, Masamune Shirow designed PS/2 serial mouse I own (only as a collector's item - I don't use it). Found it cheap on Ebay years ago. Today I don't even want to think of what it would cost (I'm sure it's become a collectors item of some sort).
• in_hindsight 7y ago
  Wow, so the author basically suggested to use the auction to sell the keyboard at $1668 instead of $500 because it’s not market clearing price? That’s borderline evil
  • durkie 7y ago
    Can't they just not buy it? Lots of cheaper alternatives out there. Seems no different than a fancy watch or pen.
  • guidoism 7y ago
    If this was medicine, or tampons, or something people really needed, then yes. But extremely high-end mechanical keyboards? Not really evil. It's a Veblen good.
    • pessimizer 7y ago
      Agreed. Milking conspicuous consumers for as much as you can is good for the economy in general because it gets people with a lot of parked money to spend more.
  • pmarreck 7y ago
    Why shouldn't you sell something at a greater premium, if the demand is there? This is basic capitalist economics. It also means that a competitor can come in and offer an equivalent or superior product for less money and still make money.
• leksak 7y ago
  Not related to the content but kudos on the site styling. Haven't opened it on anything that is not a mobile device (yet) but it was very pleasant to read.
  • d7gibo 7y ago
    Agreed - I'd like to use the theme if it's available.
    • lynaghk 7y ago
      Author here --- you're welcome to copy whatever you want from the unminifed CSS: https://kevinlynagh.com/stylesheets/style.css https://kevinlynagh.com/stylesheets/style.css
• sova 7y ago
  Really fantastic write-up and, "why the hell not get a flushed out demand curve?" duh! Brilliant! We sell an online digital product that is subscription based. Do you think such a mechanism makes sense there, too?
  • kragen 7y ago
    It might be harder to convince your subscribers that your servers can only support 10 subscribers. They might band together to buy an account for a proxy server. Maybe if you're selling something inherently limited, like sponsorship banner space, or indulgences in inter-user conflicts (“we guarantee to ban any non-core-supporter who reports your account as abusive”).
    • sova 7y ago
      It's a language learning curriculum in our case, so individual progress is tied to the subscription, making it undesirable to share (but possible s'pose)
      • kragen 7y ago
        Could you auction off private tutoring time? Or being first in line to pick the other website user you get to practice language with.
        • sova 7y ago
          That's a great idea, like 50 hours of one-on-one tutoring available this month, and get private bids for that! Thanks! Let's keep brainstorming ^_^
• chinhodado 7y ago
  A technical question, how was the Vickrey auction done to ensure that you can't just enter a bogus high price?
  • rhinoceraptor 7y ago
    At my company we're doing something similar. Since the scale is a bit higher (several hundred items available) we're doing credit card holds to ensure buyers aren't doing this. If anyone backs out, it makes it a logistical nightmare to work out the new winners. Of course, it also makes it a bit tricky if you want to edit your bid, since card holds can't be modified after the fact (except for hotels/restaurants). It looks like in this case, the scale was small enough and the buyers/seller have enough trust not to make bogus bids.
  • dddddaviddddd 7y ago
    I assume that the price would be lowered if any payments bounced.
  • huac 7y ago
    the Vickrey auction mechanism itself is incentive compatible - each agent maximizes their utility by bidding their true value. the article wasn't explicit on this front* but it's true! * "All buyers will likely all pay less than they were willing to pay, which makes ‘em feel like they got a good deal." -- buyers maximize utility by bidding true value, if they bid true value, they will _always_ pay no more than their true value, so the expected value is positive. there's no "likely" to it!
• random3 7y ago
  There's even Keycon https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=98877.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=98877.0 If you want to see the full range and get a sense of what this is about: https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ 1.6K seems a bit steep. You can find most kits in the low 00s However mechanical keyboards are popular with gamers and more about collectibles / art than anything, so price becomes less relevant. If you're after ergonomics and efficiency Keyboard.io and Ergodox offer decently priced pre built split keyboards. I personally find the keyboard.io camera mount genius - take a look at a few setups here https://community.keyboard.io/t/what-does-your-rsi-helping-setup-look-like/1603/29 https://community.keyboard.io/t/what-does-your-rsi-helping-s... More resources: https://unikeyboard.io https://unikeyboard.io https://clueboard.co/ https://clueboard.co/ https://www.dygma.com/raise/ https://www.dygma.com/raise/
  • cestith 7y ago
    My Keyboard.io Model 1s are still my two favorite keyboards. I backed them on KickStarter and I'm glad I did. I'll still point out this article to Jesse and Kaia to make sure they're mindful of the option for future models.
    • dmix 7y ago
      The example on https://keyboard.io https://keyboard.io using RGB looks so tacky. Why mix light coloured wood with a rainbow RGB look? A simple vintage or black keyset would be more than sufficient. A big part of mech keyboards are they designs and sadly both keyboard.io and Ergodox aren't the prettiest. I'm curious why there's no companies producing economic split keyboards at scale and with a clean look. Edit: the link above to https://www.dygma.com https://www.dygma.com looks nice and simple, closer to what I'm looking for. Although it's still bought into the annoying RGB-everything trend.
      • cestith 7y ago
        The lights have several preset modes. That picture is just one of them. Some of them are single color. Some "breathe". The board is also microcontroller powered and runs an open source OS that takes modular plugins. You could set your own static or dynamic lighting pattern. I goes you could also paint or stain the case if you wanted.
• rmbryan 7y ago
  I suspect a set of shill bidders may be at work here. Is there a way to guard against the seller inflating prices by bidding?
  • gnomewascool 7y ago
    I think that for a Vickrey auction, the worst that a malicious seller could do, by injecting "false" bids, is (assuming the number of items sold is n), raise the price from the value of the n+1th bid to just under the value of the nth bid. (Otherwise they'd end up with unsold stock.)
    • detaro 7y ago
      Unsold stock could still be more profitable if the bids fall right, although could of course be noticed depending on the product and audience. At the core, at least everyone winning is always going to spend less than they bid.
• reaperducer 7y ago
  I wish there was a niche that involved making replacement keycaps for Macs that brought back the Apple logos on the Command keys.
  • _jal 7y ago
    The cease & desist letter would hit the advertiser's inbox before the first order.
• gre 7y ago
  The hand model is putting the "P" key on the "O" switch.
• alyandon 7y ago
  For those that would like to try a mechanical keyboard without necessarily investing $$$$$ in one, I'm quite happy with my ~$60USD 104 key Tecware Phantom with Outemu brown switches. Much better than any membrane based keyboard I've used in the past and not so expensive that if you end up not liking it you feel like you have wasted a ton of cash.
• whack 7y ago
  When eBay first started, I loved the idea of auctions as a way to set market prices. From an economic and game-theory perspective, it is so optimal! Clearly as later examples like Amazon have shown, auctions don't make sense for most product categories. I believe this is mainly due to psychological reasons. Decision-fatigue is a real thing. People dislike having to think hard. In a fixed-price sale, the buyer just has to ask themselves one yes/no question: "Would I be happy buying this item for $X?" This is a very simple question to answer. In a sealed-bid auction, people have to ask themselves "What $X am I willing to pay for this item", which is a tremendously more complex question to answer. In fact, from a game theory perspective, you should never put in a bid that you're "happy with". You should put in a bid where you're exactly neutral between buying-vs-not-buying. Otherwise, you're leaving money on the table. This is asking people to make purchasing decisions whose outcomes will leave them explicitly not happy - a state of mind that every person hates putting themselves in. Couple this together with the fact that the buyer doesn't even know whether they won the auction, until X hours/days later. And during this period of time, they are under a state of uncertainty, which is another mental state that people generally hate. I think that for very expensive, non-time-critical and hobbyist items, an auction may work great. People may actually enjoy pouring effort into it because it is their hobby. But for any item that people just want to buy-and-move-on, auctions are a horrible mechanism. Perhaps one day when AI assistants make all our purchasing decisions for us, auctions will become the norm, but certainly not today.
  • rjmunro 7y ago
    That sounds like why eBay added the "buy it now" feature.
  • octorian 7y ago
    > When eBay first started, I loved the idea of auctions as a way to set market prices. From an economic and game-theory perspective, it is so optimal! > Clearly as later examples like Amazon have shown, auctions don't make sense for most product categories. I believe this is mainly due to psychological reasons. I've always loved eBay as a way to introduce sanity into the prices of old/used items. Especially computer equipment, where "regular vendors" would rather let it sit on the shelf marked at 10x what its worth than actually price it to a level someone would be willing to pay. Of course for new items, it never made any sense. The eBay prices were sometimes even higher than regular vendors, hoping to catch people in the place they happened to be looking.
• void445be54d48a 7y ago
  Wasteful.
  • ogre_magi 7y ago
    How so? The money spent on the keyboards isn't destroyed. It goes to the manufacturer who presumably spends it on housing and food and medicine and stuff. What's being wasted?
• rjmunro 7y ago
  It seems tricky to do this more than once per product. What happens if you've sold the first batch and it went so well you make a second batch? Do you refund the first batch buyers with the difference in price between using the profit from the second batch?
  • wmf 7y ago
    If something is advertised as a limited edition then more shouldn't be made. Other than that... That's the same the kind of self-defeating thinking that leads to artificially low prices in the first place. Everything has to be judged based on the information available at the time (e.g. there might not be any more batches), not in hindsight. People are willing to pay to be first in line, so let them pay.
• CommieBobDole 7y ago
  These things have become so esoteric and expensive because the mechanical keyboard hobby is undergoing a more intense version of what happens to most hobbies/pastimes; the purpose of the hobby has transitioned from primarily "making/using the thing" to "obtaining and displaying ever more extreme versions of the thing to impress other people who know about the thing". I feel like this is an outgrowth of the basic human desire to form groups and define an in-group and an out-group; people start a hobby because they are interested in whatever, but after a while there develops an (often arbitrary) right way and wrong way to pursue the hobby, cliques form, and after a while participating in the hobby becomes an exercise in demonstrating that you've bought/made/done the right things and are therefore worthy of being in the in-group instead of the out-group. I think this is so strong in the mechanical keyboard community because there's not a lot of "there" there; mechanical keyboards are nice to type on, but there's no core competitive activity that they're used for - you're not spending $1600 on a keyboard to improve your typing speed and accuracy 1.2% so you can have a shot at winning the big annual World Typing Tournament in Las Vegas. The mechanical keyboard community feels to me more like the streetwear or sneakerhead community than, say, R/C planes or surfing or whatever.
  • dimnsionofsound 7y ago
    Sounds about right to me. The book The Human Zoo by Desmond Morris discusses this phenomenon r.e. people need to feel the best at something so they pick ever smaller niches or hobbies where they can finally compete at a level where they have a chance to get to the top. I would recommend the book as a whole, it has a lot of other interesting info in it too.
    • emgee_1 7y ago
      Go for Emacs. It is niche, belongs to the oldest softwares, and a true mark of professionalism:)
      • pstuart 7y ago
        And make sure you use tabs!
• octorian 7y ago
  I still remember thinking that having a Das Keyboard was a splurge. But in this world, it might as well be a Logitech that no one talks about. (That being said, I've only used Das Keyboards at home and work for the past 6-7 years or so... I'm not really sure what I'd actually gain by seeking out one of these more "boutique" mechanical keyboard brands, and there's so many I'm not even sure where I'd begin anyways.) Its also a shame that none of this nonsense actually helps any of us when we're using a laptop away from a desk setup.
  • rhinoceraptor 7y ago
    You aren't really getting anything, at least past the $300 mark. The functional advantages of higher end boards are dye sub/double shot key caps, programmable firmware, better switches, better cases, and alternate layouts (Ergodox, Ortholinear boards, etc.).
  • knolax 7y ago
    > Its also a shame that none of this nonsense actually helps any of us when we're using a laptop away from a desk setup. I use a 68 key keyboard and I'd say the compact design of "boutique" (as put it) keyboards is the main advantage over a Das Keyboard or Razer where they put half an inche of plastic and a bunch of useless media keys/knobs/indicators around all the edges of the keyboard. With the more compact design I can basically carry my mechanical keyboard anywhere I carry my laptop.
• daniel-cussen 7y ago
  If you look at it as a writing utensil (makes you faster or better at writing) and as an office status image (like a fancy pen) it makes a lot of sense. Pens go for thousands.
• d--b 7y ago
  One point that is not much discussed here is that software programmers earn generally quite a lot of money, and do tend to spend less on luxury items than bankers, which often means they have some cash on hands for this sort of things. The custom keyboard kit is like the banker's rollex.
• xer0x 7y ago
  Keycult is so good!!
• epx 7y ago
  How much a Model M, or better yet, a Model F, cost in today's dollars?
  • cyanov 7y ago
    Unicomp manufactures Model Ms and sell the 104 keys for ~$108 (inc tax+ship). Haven't checked the Model F in awhile, but they're still rare and expensive.
  • michaelcampbell 7y ago
    https://clickykeyboards.com/ https://clickykeyboards.com/
• tentboy 7y ago
  I am the owner of several keyboards whose total price is a few thousand. Most of that comes from one rare board which can fetch $3k+ in the aftermarket (TGR Jane V2 CE). I really have a hard time explaining to people my purchases because it is just something I like for some reason. I love the customization and I liken it to having a project car... something I am saving up for right now. I have also attended meetups and met a ton of great people through the hobby, so it is not just all throwing money around there is a social component. Happy to answer any keyboard related questions!
• pmarreck 7y ago
  Today I learned about the Vickrey Auction (and related auction strategies such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey%E2%80%93Clarke%E2%80%93Groves_auction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey%E2%80%93Clarke%E2%80%9... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_second-price_auction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_second-price_aucti... (which is used by Google AdWords!)
• artiscode 7y ago
  Oh wow, I have been living under a rock. My friends and family consider me a mechanical keyboard enthusiast/geek because I have two mechanical keyboards and a simple 6 switch tester that I used prior to purchasing my first mechanical keyboard, the CM Masterkeys Pro S RGB. I've tried explaining why I ordered a tester, why I chose Cherry MX Blues, but I don't think I managed to get my point across. So here I am, having spent around $250 on both my keyboards, an outrageous amount in the eyes of my non-technical friends and mom. At least my wife supports me, telling me she doesn't understand, but she likes seeing me so hyped and enthusiastic about it. Turns out I haven't spent that much! Interesting article and even more interesting discussion here on HN... I find it hard to justify paying $1,668 for a keyboard, but then again - it's an enthusiast market and I see the appeal.
  • rland 7y ago
    Your wife and family got off easy! You could have developed an affinity for... I don't know, boating, or restoring vintage Ford Mustangs, or watch collecting. There are some things that people -- even the regular "non-rich" -- spend insane amounts of money on.
• mamurphy 7y ago
  Why was the title shortened on HN to remove reference to mechanical keyboards? I think the subject matter is both relevant and helped generate interest in the thread. Also, most of the comments are about mechanical keyboards at this point.
• eddieh 7y ago
  This doesn't surprise me at all. Guitars are sold for thousands of dollars. I've been making the argument for years that someone should create a bespoke keyboard business. I don't want to start that business though, I want to be a customer. I spend all day working on a computer, why shouldn't I be as comfortable and efficient as possible with a custom designed and professionally built keyboard? In my scenario the possible keyboards go well beyond picking mechanical switches and caps. Because I'm in the minority that actually likes the low travel and stable feel of the MacBook Pro keyboards, but the layout sucks and they don't make a standalone version. Essentially I want a modern keyboard with Meta, Super, Hyper in additional to Control, Option, and Command. And I want the keys moved too. I don't care if nobody else in the world would want this keyboard—the only thing that matters is that I want it. And I'd pay $1,000 - $3,000, maybe more for it.
• purplezooey 7y ago
  At least it's metal. It looked plastic at first.
• dwoozle 7y ago
  The keyboard community isn’t weird at all. People love getting deep into a hobby because people like to feel like they have expertise and depth. When they get deep into a hobby, their level of commitment seems insane to a person on the outside. I can’t fathom why someone would spend $1000 on sneakers or $1000 on a keyboard or $1000 on a golf club or $1000 at the strip club. But everyone has their hobbies.
• sebastianconcpt 7y ago
  Technique to discover the market price: A Vickrey auction is a type of sealed-bid auction. Bidders submit written bids without knowing the bid of the other people in the auction. The highest bidder wins but the price paid is the second-highest bid. This type of auction is strategically similar to an English auction and gives bidders an incentive to bid their true value. The auction was first described academically by Columbia University professor William Vickrey in 1961 though it had been used by stamp collectors since 1893. In 1797 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe sold a manuscript using a sealed-bid, second-price auction.
• dfabulich 7y ago
  How would you apply a Vickrey auction to SaaS subscription pricing? The article gives an example for keyboards, where ten keyboards are for sale, and the top-ten customers pay the 11th price. But how would I apply this technique to software subscriptions, where I'd be happy to sell any number of them to willing buyers?
  • tomerico 7y ago
    If you'd like to estimate your demand curve, you could run experiments where your landing page shows different price points to different users.
    • dfabulich 7y ago
      But I'd love to know how much each individual customer is actually willing to pay!
      • underwater 7y ago
        Sounds like enterprise pricing with the stereotypical "contact us for pricing" text? Also, having product tiers allows you to segment the market, which is another method to have people land closer to their maximum comfortable price.
• DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Given these benefits, why aren’t such auctions more common in artisan manufacturing niches? I had never heard of Vickrey auction. Knowing how to make some high quality artisan product in no way guarantees one also business savvy. In fact, it probably reduces the odds you know such. The first two sound like “people are dumb amateurs who don’t like money” Being a "dumb" amateur is sufficient. No need to act like lack of savvy means you don't like money.
• m3kw9 7y ago
  It is not used often because most times people want things to be deterministic. If I press buy, I own it, not I may or may not get it and have to wait to see with a fear that it may constantly lose out.
• edisonjoao 7y ago
  this is real