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It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?
- HenryKissinger 7y agoUnfortunately, New York City was built at a time when people rode horses, and its streets reflect that. And you can't just widen a street, certainly not in a city like NYC. You would have to destroy every building on one side of a street, and build new buildings, all for a gain of a few feet. Large megapolises like NYC need to start exploring the concept of 3D streets. Instead of having a single street level, on the ground, start building skyways between skyscrapers, where both cars and pedestrians can move. Take 45th Street. You could build a second street 20m above the ground, straddling the buildings on the eastern side of the street. You build ramps at both ends, and you build your aerial street through the buildings. This would require heavy modifications, if not outright reconstruction, of the buildings in question, but this is the way of the future for large, dense cities in this millenium. Our current approach to city design is primitive, and quite frankly medieval. We still build cities the way we built them in the Middle Ages: independent of one another, standing next to each other. But as NYC's traffic woes show, this is not enough anymore. If you want to reduce traffic in large cities, without restricting car ownership, then you need to make way for more cars. Or you could go underground. But I don't know if that's a viable option in a city with a subway, and straddled by rivers. You would need to protect your underground highways from water infiltration. And you can't hollow the ground below your city too much, lest the millions of tons of steel and cement and glass above the ground start collapsing. Tl;dr we need to start building Coruscant.
- adrianN 7y agoOr you could just remove cars from the streets and replace them with much more efficient modes of transportation that don't require two tons of steel and forty square meters per person.
- steve_adams_86 7y agoHow would you get cars up to the roads 20m above the ground? How would you handle maintenance of buildings connected to suspended roads? Are there seismic safeguards for structures like this? All real questions, I'm fascinated by this idea but clueless as to how it could be implemented.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Swizec 7y ago> without restricting car ownership Why? This seems like an unnecessary optimization in a city like NYC where the population density already makes it largely unnecessary to own a personal vehicle. I live in SF which is also among the densest cities in USA and in my 5 years here never have I felt like I'd need to own a car. They're inconvenient and expensive. Most of my day-to-day is easier to accomplish on foot because I'd spend longer looking for parking than it would take me to walk there. Not having a car saves a bunch of money. Around $8,000/year according to a quick internet search on car ownership. That's a nice chunk of change. Yes that means I have to get an Uber or rent a car sometimes. Especially for longer trips. About $2,000 last year according to my expense tracker. Convenience and cost aside, optimizing for car ownership doesn't make sense from an environmental perspective either.
- chroma 7y agoTaking public transportation in the bay area is incredibly stressful. I've had people try to fight me. I've had people threaten to stab me. I've had people smoke meth on the same car as me. Hell, last year one of my friends was robbed at gunpoint on bart. If these services were run by a private company, they would be shut down for safety violations. I much prefer cars because it means I don't have to worry about vagrants, crazy people, and generally annoying assholes (such as those who play their music out of speakers instead of using headphones).
- inferiorhuman 7y agoTaking public transportation in the bay area is incredibly stressful. Counterpoint: all of the shootings up and down the I-80 corridor, wrong way drivers, sideshows, and road rage. https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/Update-4-Killed-In-Wrong-Way-Hwy-101-Collision-14491067.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/Update-4-Killed-... https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/06/25/traffic-stop-in-richmond-turns-into-chase-shooting-suspect-arrested/ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/06/25/traffic-stop-in-rich... https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/05/05/chp-seeks-weekend-i-80-injury-shooting-suspect/ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/05/05/chp-seeks-weekend-i-... https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/09/14/shooting-in-vallejo-shuts-down-east-i-80/ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/09/14/shooting-in-vallejo-... https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/07/10/video-police-release-body-cam-footage-in-fatal-i-80-officer-involved-shooting/ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/07/10/video-police-release... https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/08/27/fremont-police-investigate-report-of-gunfire-between-vehicles/ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/08/27/fremont-police-inves... https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Shooting-on-I-880-in-Oakland-Shuts-Down-Freeway-513067391.html https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Shooting-on-I-880-in-O... https://patch.com/california/sanleandro/shooting-i-880-chp-seeks-witnesses https://patch.com/california/sanleandro/shooting-i-880-chp-s... https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Bay-Area-Police-Crack-Down-on-Sideshows-559021241.html https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Bay-Area-Police-Crack-... https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/03/oakland-weekend-sideshows-police-crackdown/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/03/oakland-weekend... https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/05/09/mother-of-four-killed-in-road-rage-confrontation-for-no-reason-prosecutor-says/ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/05/09/mother-of-four-kille...
- Pfhreak 7y agoWhen has building more roads for cars ever resulted in fixing traffic. The solution isn't to try and make the city more car friendly, it's to remove the cars entirely. Move to streetcars, subways, trains, busses, anything that moves crowds of people rather than 1-5 people. Cars are such an incredibly inefficient model for moving people around in dense areas -- every person gets their own engine, several chairs, storage areas, and a couple tons of metal? > If you want to reduce traffic in large cities, without restricting car ownership. You don't have to restrict car ownership to make people stop owning cars. Just make the alternative much better -- why would I need to own a car if public transit served my every need and I could take a zipcar/car2go/taxi for those rare, rare cases when I needed my own vehicle?
- rocqua 7y agoInduced demand means that more roads won't fix traffic. It will however, mean more people get to travel. There is real value in that.
- erik_seaberg 7y agoLatent demand does exist (not "induced", it was always there!) but it isn't infinite. There's a point where you could actually have enough supply. They just don't want to spend that much money and knock down that many buildings (give up Manhattan's density), so they say it wouldn't work.
- riffic 7y agoIt seems pretty fortunate that New York was built in the way it has to me. Your entire premise is backwards bud.
- chrstphrknwtn 7y agoRem Koolhaus calls this thinking the “culture of congestion” in his 1978 book “Delirious New York”. It’s fascinating, and these ideas have all been explored before. Have multi-level streets ever worked?
- maxsilver 7y ago> Have multi-level streets ever worked? They work well everywhere they've ever been built. Chicago is probably the most well known example.
- smileysteve 7y agoSan Francisco decided the opposite
- aiddun 7y agoAs a corollary to that, I can’t believe that the FDR is only 3 lanes at most points. It’s ridiculous for a road with that should in practice be a highway.
- point78 7y agoThis makes no sense whatsoever and probably one of the worst ideas I ever read on HN. Banning cars works very well along with pedestrian streets and public transport in Europe.
- keiferski 7y agoRobert Moses, is that you?
- manigandham 7y agoCar ownership isn't affected. It's car usage within the city that would be banned. There are much better transit options for dense cities like subways, light rail, bikes, and small electric shuttles. I do agree with skyways though. It would be great to have multiple levels of pedestrian and bike transit that isn't shared with heavier vehicles, and the views would be fantastic. It reminds me of the Highline: https://www.thehighline.org/about/ https://www.thehighline.org/about/
- bontaq 7y agoI mean it sounds like you're proposing something like the failed project to put an elevated highway at 30th st http://www.nycroads.com/roads/mid-manhattan/ http://www.nycroads.com/roads/mid-manhattan/ There's no reason for it, we should continue removing cars from the roads because then there is no traffic. I think the incoming toll for cars to enter manhattan below 42nd or so, plus removing through traffic on 14th st, are great steps.
- inferiorhuman 7y agoI mean it sounds like you're proposing something like the failed project to put an elevated highway at 30th st How about CA-480[0]? Bringing down the elevated freeway made the Embarcadero a MUCH nicer area to be in. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_480 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_480
- shmerl 7y ago> Tl;dr we need to start building Coruscant. Or Taris.
- teddyh 7y agoTrantor.
- roca 7y agoFor months after 9/11/01, everywhere below Canal St was closed to most vehicles. It was wonderful to wander around there.
- cagenut 7y agothere were a couple days after sandy like that too, it was lovely.
- markbnj 7y agoPlease do ban cars from Manhattan. Went in to have dinner the other night on the lower east side, and yes we drove and it's craziness. I stress out like mad every time I have to contemplate doing it. I'd rather never do it again, but if they really want to ban cars from the island the transit lines from NJ and CT would need to add a lot of capacity, especially on weekends.
- Whatarethese 7y agoI didn't read the whole article but would this include banning trucks that bring in goods? What about trucks that help residents move to and from the city?
- L_Rahman 7y agoNot at all. The plan is to ban private vehicles and through traffic within the cross town streets (East-West direction, numbered roads) in Manhattan. Larger cross-town streets like 14th, 23rd and 42nd would remain open to all traffic. The smaller streets is where the ban would go into a place making them a single grade mixing zone for pedestrians, cyclists and vehicles. Service vehicles (delivery, garbage, taxis) can access these smaller streets but at a <10MPH speed.
- reustle 7y ago> Larger cross-town streets like 14th, 23rd and 42nd would remain open to all traffic. Wasn't 14th just closed to cars starting this week? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/nyregion/car-ban-14th-street-manhattan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/nyregion/car-ban-14th-str...
- L_Rahman 7y agoYes, but that’s to manage L train shut down problems. There’s a meaningful difference between a stop gap plan to address immediate problems and larger change in how we think about transportation within New York
- djsumdog 7y agoChicago at one time had an underground tunnel system for transporting goods, but it fell into disrepair, and is too small for moving modern trucks/freight. I think most/all of it is closed off today; although the city still uses some of it. Singapore's Certificate of Entitlement (COE) system works really well to reduce cars in the city (you have to bid on the license to buy a car, which can run S$30k to S$90k depending on the type of vehicle, time of year you try to bid, etc. .. and that doesn't include registration or the actual cost of the car). But that's a situation where the city is small and .. literally its own country. So it obviously wouldn't work in NYC or anywhere in America.
- baron816 7y agoI was once riding in a cab, ranting about how private cars should be banned in NYC, and the driver spoke up and said that no one who drives in the city wants to drive there—they do it because they have to. They do it because many neighbors within the greater metro area aren’t severed by any form of public transportation.
- _delirium 7y agoI'd be interested to see numbers on that (e.g. what percentage of cars are coming from which locations). There are people poorly served by transit, but Manhattan also has a lot of fairly wealthy people driving, or even being chauffeured, on routes that have perfectly usable transit that they'd just rather not use. Car ownership in NYC (45% overall) is much higher among wealthier than poorer people, and especially so in Manhattan (22%). Those 22% of Manhattanites who own cars are also the ones who lobby hardest for pro-car policies, get angry when street parking is removed to make room for bus lanes or bike lanes, etc.
- speedplane 7y ago> Manhattan also has a lot of fairly wealthy people driving, or even being chauffeured, on routes that have perfectly usable transit that they'd just rather not use. The classicist subtext you allude to above has no place in NYC transportation policy, and will likely make inequality worse. If you want to make the rich pay their fair share, then raise income or wealth taxes. A multi-millionaire won't be fazed by a $10 congestion surcharge, they'll keep driving their Hummer directly through midtown. But the commuters from Queens or Staten Island, the senior citizens that can't easily walk down subway steps, the families car-pooling their children to different activities, and the countless businesses that need to lug equipment and supplies around the city will feel the pain. Perversely, congestion pricing will probably benefit the rich. It will clear the streets of folks that can no longer afford to drive, making their Hummer joy ride through mid-town much more pleasurable.
- _delirium 7y agoThe proposal in the linked article isn't a congestion charge, but to just pedestrianize many roads in Manhattan. I agree with you that congestion charges aren't an ideal solution for a bunch of reasons, one being that affluent people can just pay their $10 and drive through, as you note. Another problem with them is that congestion charges don't really make roads safe for non-automobile road users, in the way that pedestrianization does. What annoys me personally about rich Manhattan types with cars is mostly their political influence. Fewer than a quarter of Manhattanites own cars, but the ones that do have historically been disproportionately well connected in local Democratic machine politics.
- baby 7y agoI freaking love public/pedestrian streets. Wish there were more of them at least.
- djsumdog 7y agoNYC needs to dump a lot of work into their rail system, and not slack off in the good times. They keep flipping from having one of the best systems in the US to being plagued by terrible issues, every decade. Chicago hasn't expanded in a while, but they maintain their tracks, buy new stock and renovate stations. I don't think people appreciate how incredibly important all that maintenance is to the city. I hope Chicago can get enough funding one day to expand and start on the outer loop project, but not at the expense of keeping what's there in good condition.
- dehrmann 7y agoIt's cute to talk about banning cars from Manhattan, but the Second Ave. line only has three stations uptown. And like parent said, ongoing maintenance. How's the L doing, these days?
- bradleyjg 7y agoThe problem is terrible governance. That can’t be fixed by throwing money at it.
- gok 7y agoI ride the L most days, and mostly think it's great, but the systems are not really comparable. The subway has over 10x the ridership and is vastly more important to New York's economy than the L is to Chicago's. The "hard" decisions CTA made to shut down whole branches for months at a time to do rehab would be politically impossible in New York.
- delfinom 7y agoDo not mix subway with rail. NYC has a subway system, it more or less functions independent from NYC's rail network. NYC's rail network covers 4 boroughs and goes all the way to the end of Long Island. They are spending $100 million just this year alone building additional freight transfer points in Brooklyn & Queens and adding more marine barge terminals explicitly to remove more trucks entering NYC. NYC's subway network is not owned by NYC but by NYS which is operated by the MTA, they can't really run it themselves and it's a point of political fighting. However, there is tons being done by the MTA while people bitch and moan while dedicating no effort to educating themselves. Over 1k new subway cars are on order (and honestly, there hasnt been a time in the last 2 decades they haven't been, the subway just requires a shit-ton of them). There are track geometry scanning trains that run and down the lines at least once a week per line to scan rails for defects. And they recently acquired another train to do so as well. This helps reduce unexpected failures. They have been replacing all wooden ties with concrete ties as they can. They are also switching out for continuous welded rail as they go as well. Signal work is disastrous because the amount of track (>700 miles) AND multiple subway lines intermix meaning every mixed line needs to be replaced at the same time. All while maintaining 24/7 service, AND DONT YOU DARE DISCUSS HALTING A TRAIN LINE AT NIGHT TO EXPEDITE WORK LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD, you'll be voted out of office.
- investologia 7y agoIt can really change the vibe of the city
- andybp85 7y agoThis sounds like it would suck big time for musicians and the like who have to transport gear to bars and whatnot, which I've done plenty of times since high school (I live just outside the city in NJ). Having to carry all my gear like 10 NYC blocks (or more) after having to pay tens of dollars to park in a garage (what would availability even be?) would definitely make me think twice about trying to get gigs there. My girlfriend's an artist and does shows there occasionally, and she'd be in the same boat. Obviously I'm not saying "there'll be no art or live music in NYC if this happens!" I have a car and unless I have a damn good reason I don't drive into the city, especially during the crazy traffic hours (the PATH trains run all night). I think we need to consider what other damn good reasons people have for driving into Manhattan before we consider something as radical as this.
- godzillabrennus 7y agoI lug around about 6/7 bags of video equipment around from time to time for interviews I do. I could never manage it on the subway. It would otherwise be awesome to have less cars on the roads.
- gmueckl 7y agoPedestrian zones in German cities habe exceptions for transportation to or from locations inside them. Otherwise, stores in these areas couldn't get their wares etc. This just prevents regular car traffic and creates a safe space for walking. I don't know if the concept can scale tonan area the size of Manhattan. Just the necessary level of traffic would probably add up to to a lot of vehicles entering and leaving. I would assume that the solution would be to ban traffic on most steets, but leave a coarse grid of open roads for passing traffic. This should still cut down on commuter car traffic on these.
- danielschlaug 7y agoThe assumption that cars are the only publicly available cargo carriers would also be ridiculous if cars weren’t so abundant that all other solutions are floored. There’s everything from cargo bicycles to autonomous delivery vehicles that could fill this role.
- JDiculous 7y agoNo, just do what countries like Singapore, Japan, and Korea have done.
- ajmurmann 7y agoWhat do they do? Of the countries you listed I’ve only been to japan. Besides great public transit street parking is mostly prohibited and many streets naturally aren’t well suited for cars at all, turning them into something very similar to German pedestrian zones.
- JDiculous 7y agoYes Japan and Korea have fantastic public transportation, and walkable streets that aren't dominated by cars like those pedestrian zones you're referring to. Singapore restricts the number of cars.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- speedplane 7y agoBanning cars, congestion pricing, Uber and taxi surchages, taxing parking spots and rental cars ... under the current NYC political consensus, personal motor vehicles are in the cross-hairs. I actually would support this if it was part of an honest effort to improve transportation and livability in the city, but most of these proposals make it harder to live here, not easier. I suspect the real motivation is a mix of environmentalism (cars contribute to global warming) and classicism (only the rich drive cars in NYC). NYC politicians should be focused on how to move the most amount of people, the safest and quickest way, for the cheapest cost. If they want to ban cars due to effects on the environment, they should say that maybe promote electric vehicles. If they want to tax the rich, they can simply impose a more progressive income tax structure. The current muddled response is actually making transportation in the city more expensive, often causes more emissions due to longer rides, and has an insignificant effect on the rich while hitting the pocket-books of everyone else much harder.
- maelito 7y ago> If they want to ban cars due to effects on the environment, they should say that maybe promote electric vehicles. Electric vehicules are usually better than thermal ones, but they're still a big carbon emitter. Except if they're shared. No individual vehicule heavier than 50kg can be considered good in terms of climate impact.
- epanchin 7y agoWhere the carbon is emitted is important for city residents. Electric cars are better for the local environment.
- gambiting 7y ago>>Electric vehicules are usually better than thermal ones, but they're still a big carbon emitter My argument here is always that even if all electricity was produced from coal power plants(it isn't) surely it's much better to have one big carbon emitter far outside of the city, than thousands of smaller carbon emitters in the middle of the city. Yes, it is just externalising the emissions, but I think it's important to improve the air quality where people actually live, no?
- acd 7y agoI think cars should be banned from most densely populated city centers in general. There is a word describing it "Pedestrianization" Reasoning: Cars pollute the air which makes the people living and walking in the city centers sick. Cars pollute with noise. Cars cause pedestrian and bicycle accidents. Its nice for peoples health to be able to walk and run in open areas. Streets which previously was used by cars can be converted to public green areas and you can also plant trees there. It would open up new green areas for cafes and restaurants. Public transport should replace cars in such dense environments. You will thus ride to the outer part of the city park your car there and take public / electric bike transport from there. Here is story about Spanish city Pontevedra which banned cars https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/sep/18/paradise-life-spanish-city-banned-cars-pontevedra https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/sep/18/paradise-life... Wikipedia article about Pontevedra, "Pedestrianization" section "As a result, 65% of trips in the city centre are made on foot. Pontevedra was recognized in 2016 as one of the 15 best cycling cities in the world" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontevedra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontevedra
- afarrell 7y agoWhat does someone do if they twist their ankle badly and are on crutches for a month?
- gambiting 7y agoI see you're getting downvoted but I don't understand why - pretty much exactly this happened to me recently, I had severely reduced mobility in my leg for about 2 months, but I was told that I don't qualify for a blue badge. So while I luckily could drive(left leg affected, automatic car), this was one time in my life where I could actually benefit from being able to 1) get closer to where I need to be 2) park close to the entrance, but because it wasn't a permanent or long term disability I couldn't get the right permit.
- Isinlor 7y agoYou could use "electric mobility scooter"; In Netherlands they are widely available for people with the need. https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+mobility+scooter+disabled+people&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+mobility+scooter+di...
- Freak_NL 7y agoCan the title be amended to reflect that of the linked article? That is, please drop the nonsensical question mark.
- lifeisstillgood 7y agoCars work because they solve for the first and last mile (50yards) problem. Public transport is great - but it is coarser than private cars. Even timetabled buses cannot drive down every road The "right" solution is presumably "sharing" car stack (no not Uber style sharing). But boy I am not sure the politics or even economics stack up.
- mattmanser 7y agoYour legs also solve the first and last mile problem.
- lifeisstillgood 7y agoMost of the comments mentioned very good reasons were legs were an unsuitable solution - carrying art, cameras or other equipment. All of this produces economic value and cannot realistically be carried 5 blocks. If you are an able bodied 20-something then public transport already solves the transport of your body. But it's not just for transporting an adult - it's for children, economics and more
- JoeAltmaier 7y agoI have a funny idea that, folks cannot carry a camera for 5 blocks may be because cars. Folks used to do things like this all the time. My Dad used to carry a bushel basket of corn on his shoulder, from the bin to the troughs in the barnyard, with no apparent effort.
- jacques_chester 7y agoI see children on the subway every day. I see folks with camera or audio equipment on the subway every week.
- bluescrn 7y agoNot everyone has a fit and healthy pair of legs
- ThomPete 7y agoThats the most selfish idea ever. As a single you can live in on manhattan without any cars sure, but got a family, need to do summer camps in jersey but live in brooklyn. It would make life so much more difficult, and for what? Some wellmeaning but regressive environmentalists who dont need a car. In copenhagen its a disaster imo, and thats a small city. Big cities are big for a reason, a lot of activity. If you want less car exhaust there are many amazing areas less than 30 minutes from manhattan. This honestly sounds like political overreaching. We dont need it, especially when there is no actual alternative.
- ginko 7y ago>but got a family, need to do summer camps in jersey but live in brooklyn. So take the train with your family? I don’t see the problem.
- ThomPete 7y agoWhich proves my point. Try and have kids then we should talk.
- 1986 7y agoI don't understand the Brooklyn - Jersey rationale, you can already make that trip by car quite easily without needing to drive through Manhattan (eg via Staten Island)
- ThomPete 7y agoYes today, because manhattan takes som of the traffic. Forcing it around would increase congestion.
- alkonaut 7y agoYou still need ambulance access everywhere and delivery access almost everywhere. So you need a lot of vehicle infrastructure even though it’s mostly unused, and vehicles must suddenly share the space with pedestrians instead of pedestrians having sidewalks and designated crossings. Pedestrian streets exist in most cities but the problem of making each street a safe place for pedestrians while ambulances and delivery trucks can still access them isn’t a solved problem. A couple of vehicle terrorist attacks in Europe in recent years highlighted this issue.
- MrMoenty 7y agoThe common solution found in European cities is to have one street reserved entirely for pedestrians, and to allow delivery access from the two adjacent, parallel streets. But of course this requires a certain amount of infrastructure within the buildings.
- alkonaut 7y agoYes, and obviously it only makes it possible to make half the streets pedestrian streets in an area. To make every street in an area pedestrian-only you’d need a different solution. Deliveries can often be handled in early mornings for example.
- 3stripe 7y agoThe American worldview on (the necessity of) cars is going to be hard to shift, but boy oh boy would it change your country for the better. Sincerely, A European.
- ekianjo 7y agoWhen you go to the US you will see that apart from very dense city centers there are a lot of people living pretty far away from the next town with nothing in between. There is no practical way, right now, to live without a car if you are in such a situation.
- Doctor_Fegg 7y agoThat doesn't excuse doing nothing in the cities.
- ekianjo 7y agoSure, but it will not solve the problem that most people will need cars to get around.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoThis would necessitate shifting the American worldview on having a quarter acre of land to yourself as opposed to living in a buildings adjacent to one another.
- magwa101 7y agoYES. Ebikes in tunnels.
- Merrill 7y agoThis seems to ignore freight. First, since there are no freight railroads into Manhattan; everything consumed by the residents and the much larger daytime population has to arrive by truck. Most freight into Manhattan comes via the Hudson River bridges and tunnels since the container port is in New Jersey and the rail yards are also there. There is little barge traffic, although I think that garbage is barged out via an East River pier. Given the density of population in Manhattan, which doubles to 4 million during the daytime hours, the freight requirements are large and trucks and vans are a considerable part of the existing traffic bringing goods to Manhattan and then distributing them around the borough. Second, Brooklyn, Queens and the rest of Long Island are also supplied mainly by trucking crossing Manhattan from the same Hudson River bridges and tunnels, as well as via the Goethals and Verrazzano bridge or via the Tappan Zee bridge. Rail freight goes north to near Albany and then back south with only very limited connections for freight on the Long Island Railroad. Eliminating truck traffic across Manhattan would substantially increase costs for Brooklyn, Queens, and the rest of Long Island. There have been proposals to put a rail freight tunnel under New York Harbor from roughly Bayonne to Bay Ridge, but there is no perceptible progress. Even with a tunnel, the LIRR third rail system is incompatible with modern container well cars and clearances are not adequate without a great deal of replacement of bridges, etc.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mayneack 7y agoI forget where I saw it, but I think the 14th street closure allows local deliveries. Trucks find it easier to deliver because they no longer have to double park.
- Merrill 7y agoNot sure what the actual statistics would be, but using Google streetview, it seems that trucks/vans are maybe 20% of traffic. Taxis, limos, Uber, etc. probably make up another 30%. Private autos are probably on the order of half. It would be interesting to know what percentages are trips NJ to LI/outer boroughs, LI/outer boroughs to Manhattan, and NJ to Manhattan. I personally would not drive in Manhattan unless absolutely necessary (not for decades!) and have only crossed it in the dead of night or from the GWB to the Bronx.
- pentae 7y agoI believe our governments should designate a new class of Urban car, similar to the Japanese "Kei cars". The "Urban EV" would have to meet strict requirements: Electric Vehicles only, within a small size of footprint (smart car sized) and have pedestrian anti collision safety features. The EVs could have cargo trays as well for deliveries. Pedestrian zones with Urban EV access (scooters, ebikes included) could utilise a small bike lane sized road down the middle of the pedestrian areas with dotted lines to keep the EV traffic moving efficiently. Despite this, pedestrians and vehicles will be maneuvering around each other. Of course, EV's would be expected to give way to pedestrians by law. Urban EV zones could eventually also be linked together with bike lanes and tunnels. This would simultaneously make for more cyclist friendly cities while accommodating and making far more modern, social and interesting urban environments.
- jacques_chester 7y agoFreeing road space with smaller cars are equivalent to adding roads. You wind up with the same induced demand problems and it is still stupendously less efficient than buses, trains and pedestrian space. The same goes for folks waving self-driving cars as a magical talisman that will "fix" car traffic. You can't fix car traffic. You can only replace it with different modes of transport.
- pentae 7y agoYou make good points but its not ‘all or nothing’. Small, efficient modes of transport like bicycles, ebikes and scooters attached to sharing apps is a correct step forward in urban mobility. If we zoned cities pedestrians first with smart public transport we have plenty of room for ‘ev bike lanes’ for small personal mobility vehicles across huge areas (think 14 x 14 city blocks) it would look vastly different to the congestion you are describing from cars owning the spaces
- peterwwillis 7y agoYes!! There is no one-size-fits-all transportation method. And some people - notably, those with disabilities - are at a disadvantage with most options. It shouldn't be a requirement, for example, to spend multiple hours on buses just to run one errand because it's the only accessible solution. Cars are designed for high speed, multi-use, multi-environment, safety-critical use cases, that are a byproduct of the environment cars have to drive in, and how they are operated. Take out most of those requirements and we'd have lightweight, cheap, tiny contraptions that fit cities better. You can even build cars that fit in bike lanes!
- rayiner 7y agoI agree in concept. But it’s time to whip MTA into shape and get an efficient, punctual subway and bus system before it’s time to ban cars. Give me European style efficiency and punctuality in public transit before telling me about European-style plans that make me use public transit.
- grepthisab 7y agoYes, it is time to ban personal transport vehicles from Manhattan. Leave buses and delivery vehicles since everything is stocked by them, and work vehicles like police perhaps. The problem is this will never get implemented on any non geologic timescale. We need a clear vision like this, but also a non-racist version of Robert Moses to just make it all happen.
- smileysteve 7y ago> vehicles like police perhaps Policing itself changes significantly when much of the population isn't in a car. And police may be able to see crime in action rather than reaction.
- mrfusion 7y agoWouldn’t you still have to allow delivery trucks? Otherwise how would business get packages and pet stores get pets?
- jborichevskiy 7y agoA nice writeup about the recent NYC 14th street closure by Signal Problems https://signalproblems.substack.com/p/miracle-on-14th-street https://signalproblems.substack.com/p/miracle-on-14th-street
- dawg- 7y agoGet cars out of all city centers, not just the big ones. I live in a small town pop. 15,000. Our little main street is clogged with parking spaces and cars. For 15,000 people! Instead they could rip out the asphalt and make it a pedestrian zone with lots of green space...and the downtown business owners would probably reap the benefits. But nobody is willing to do anything drastic.
- SomeHacker44 7y agoTo interested readers: the title references a few paragraphs in the beginning and end of the article. The article mostly concerns itself with a history of NYC and streets, which I personally found irrelevant and boring. I work a few blocks from 14th St and, man, the place was eerie this week. I really liked it and support the concept of banning cars, even as I own one because I live in the far reaches of an outer borough.
- spodek 7y agoFuture citizens will look back at objections to banning cars from Manhattan like we look back at objections to smoking in New York bars and restaurants -- like throwbacks to a dirty, barbaric era we would be horrified to return to. I remember showering after getting home from bars and the smell of smoke coming out of my hair. People claimed we'd lose business to Hoboken bars where people could still smoke. Within a couple years, Hoboken had to ban smoking in bars and restaurants to stop losing business to Manhattan.
- rb808 7y agoTo me its crazy that parking in Manhattan is so cheap that a family on the Train would cost more than parking (in cheap buildings). On Sunday street parking is free!
- coldtea 7y agoBan cars from Manhattan? Yes, provided you have peripheral routes (the circle around Manhattan), improve the medieval-like subway conditions, and have a good (preferably electric) bus system that's still allowed.
- peterwwillis 7y agoHas anyone calculated how fast you could go from downtown to uptown with a bicycle and no traffic? Maybe the best way to galvanize public opinion is with hope: show them things can be much better, and they will want it. You could plan a day to shut down some street for 100 blocks and do a series of stunts. Mock up bus and bike lanes, and do trial runs all day of bikes and buses moving up and down the corridor. Then run the results in the paper with the title "the future is here".
- koheripbal 7y agoThere are a lot of elderly people living in the city that cannot ride a bicycle. ...and what about when there's a foot of snow on the ground? Or pouring rain? Should everyone resign themselves to suffering?
- jshaqaw 7y agoAs real not snarky rhetorical questions - how does an aging populace get around a city without cabs? When I injured my leg last year I found just how unviable it was to commute by crowded subway during rush hours on crutches. It gave me sympathy for the disabled and elderly. For all their faults, Uber and Lyft were the lifeline which let me get my kids to school and get myself to work until I healed.
- tamaharbor 7y agoGreat idea, let’s go back to the Stone Age.